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Old 2011-09-11, 09:31   Link #21
Kuze
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Listed tropes, tvtropes forum, quoted Mao Zedong, it's like this thread jumped right into the middle of 8sG and Battle net. Behold!

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Originally Posted by Tiresias
What do you guys think? Any thought on how MS6 will address the aforementioned points?
Well, point by point then.

- Engaging in enclosed spaces, and not going MAXIMUM POWER, is inconclusive. The Huckebein are too resistant (and sufficiently skilled in weapons handling) to be put down by anything less than going postal, one on one.

- This also means that re;Deville, the proper exchange against him is for Fate to attack, and /then/ Nanoha blasts him with Full Power once Fate is clear, instead of just looking on. But then again, teamwork had ....trouble in StrikerS also. Too much already said in that old military thread, Tsuzuki hasn't improved his writing there, moving on.

- Going for proper ambushes and most importantly not letting H's react would work quite well, yes. Incapacitating grapples would probably work well in the right instance as opposed to binds (see Cypha after Signum cuts her arm off), but that also requires having a backup partner. And we already know that the TSAB has the manpower shortage. See again body guard/bombardment detail for Hayate.

-Batteries will be chargin' for da lazor, I'm sure they'll improve on the source.

- I prefer Zero Hurricane's idea for weaponized vaccine (hello Mega Man X3! Hello Cyber Elves!), but there's always the Kenshin route of creating vacuums with your lesser ougi and expecting the full out power to not do anything like, I dunno, kill Shishio?

...yeah, that series had as much in common with ancient Japan as Genji 2. Maybe the filler featured a Giant Enemy Crab in disguise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett
I'm not sure it's such a good thing that we keep asking 'why' while we're reading this series.
And that stopped people for the movie or the original first 3 series?

As for cross posting from TVTF, well, I have no idea. Why not check the JP Nanoha wiki, maybe there's something there. They are taking the information from the back of the Force Volumes, 2 or 3 could have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett
Well it's not like he was really going teleport-teleport-teleport every two seconds in the fight, was he? I only saw two obvious occurrences of it from him, anyway.
The thing is, when he disappeared from Touma's spam, he stayed out of the sky until Isis had the upper hand on Arnage and /then/ he took her out, delaying his appearance until the right moment. Same with Nanoha, allowing her shields to spread away from herself before appearing. It's not that he's going teleport crazy, but rather that he's being pragmatic with it. Which isn't the most clevar thing in the history of evar, but is a whole lot more ruthless than about 99% of the antagonists in all of the series.

......oh, and I need scissors. 61.

*sigh*

....stupid Kojima trolling....
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Old 2011-09-11, 09:41   Link #22
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On that note, were there ever any details on what the Knight's Code was for Ancient Belka, or is it like the Saint's Church teachings, in that we'll never find out?

....and did we ever get confirmation on what style of magic Jail was using?
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Old 2011-09-11, 10:41   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Zero Hurricane View Post
Actually they have learned from experience since Strikers. Only, since the emergence or something Caled Techniques or whatever I said it, they've forgotten the source and basis of their ability to bring them to victory so far. In conclusion temporary, I said that their dependence on the AEC Equipment that makes them forget their own will power. When in fact there is a much more powerful than that garbage AEC Equipment, their basic of their own potential.
Signum already proved wrong said theory, she fought Cypha with her original equipement, powers and Cypha makes sure that Signum have enough motivation to attack her, the results were slightly better than the AEC equipements but it was still a failure.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Every other teleporter in the franchise was aiming for a more distant location than Deville, and one they couldn't even see without magic.

It only makes sense that a short-range teleport to a place you can see would be faster, maybe even easier. Maybe even something that you learn as a intermediary step towards being able to teleport to other continents, let alone to other PLANETS.
Wrong, Caro and Lutecia were teleporting for very short distances and still nedeed chants and hand movements, Deville can just go poof without any of that which is an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Really it's probably the writers not wanting Yuuno to suddenly appear to support Nanoha against the Book of Darkness even when he totally could have.
If said magical "quick teleport" spell exist, none of the character has used that in canon by this point, it's hard to handwave Yuuno having such an ability because there were various times that would be perfect opportunities to use that but he doesn't, just as Caro and Lutecia he need to use arias and a cast stance to make his teleport spell.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Caro had various reasons why she didn't need to teleport or why she shouldn't.
And yet she still needs to prepare her teleport even at relatively short distances.

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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Yes, and sneak attacking and attacking in the back is very knightly.
Aside from A's Ch. 1 and 2(Vita and Shamal respectively), do you know another example? Both Signum and Zafira appeared right in front of their opponents before smashing them. By the way, they're already betrayed their code of honour by that point so i guess Shamal decided that is the best opportunity to take Nanoha's core(no clear justification for Vita, tough, maybe she was just that desperate about saving Hayate, i remember seeing her crying after learning about Hayate's condition).
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Old 2011-09-11, 11:04   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Wrong, Caro and Lutecia were teleporting for very short distances and still nedeed chants and hand movements
When and where?

Are they teleporting themselves or someone else?


Quote:
it's hard to handwave Yuuno having such an ability because there were various times that would be perfect opportunities to use that but he doesn't
In the first season, he very quickly teleports himself and Arf far enough away from Nanoha that Arf can't interfere with her fight against Fate. He did that so fast that Arf couldn't avoid it despite knowing what he was doing. We also don't get to see them fight much; the moment we DO see is Yuuno conserving energy by running away, since that accomplishes the goal of getting Arf to chase him, leading her away from Nanoha.

In his fight with Vita, he was simultaneously working on a group teleport and testing the field to see if he could help Arf break it. That probably didn't leave him with enough attention left over to mix teleports into his tussle with Vita.

When Nanoha and Reinforce were fighting, he might have decided against teleporting into a high-speed mid-air battle against two heavy-weights, for fear that his arrival point would suddeny share space with a fast moving body or a bombardment spell.

But let's just go back to the part where Yuuno DID manage a fast, short or middle-range teleport as an attack against Arf, despite not having fully recovered his magical power (something that has to wait until months after the Precia incident is over).


Quote:
just as Caro and Lutecia he need to use arias and a cast stance to make his teleport spell.
When aiming at an extremely distant target site, like the planet below the spaceship he's on.
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Old 2011-09-11, 11:10   Link #25
Akiyoshi
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....and still was slower than Deville's instant teleport, i remember Yuuno casting a magic circle below him and forcing him and Arf after blocking her with a barrier. Sure it was a relatively quick cast but still required some tought on it.

But well, all your other arguments are merely speculation and we only seen Deville insta-teleporting like two times onscreen.

If he fights against Fate agains we will probable see more about his teleport abilities because he can't keep up with Fate's speed otherwise.
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Old 2011-09-11, 11:12   Link #26
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Given that it's a manga, there's no way to judge how quick DeVille's teleport is. For all we know it could only be as fast as Yuuno's. And until the scene gets animated (not likely) we'll never really know.
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Old 2011-09-11, 11:15   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Given that it's a manga, there's no way to judge how quick DeVille's teleport is. For all we know it could only be as fast as Yuuno's. And until the scene gets animated (not likely) we'll never really know.
Well, it helped that we don't see Deville using chants, circles or a special stance. In fact he appeared already in attack position, suguesting that his teleporting is truly instant in a Nightcrawler-like fashon. Again, he wouldn't be able to fight evenly against Fate with a Yuuno-like teleportation speed.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
In his fight with Vita, he was simultaneously working on a group teleport and testing the field to see if he could help Arf break it. That probably didn't leave him with enough attention left over to mix teleports into his tussle with Vita.
And according with what we've seen Deville apparently wouldn't have any problems teleporting back-and-foprt in the middle of a fight.
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Old 2011-09-11, 11:29   Link #28
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Let's also keep in mind that DeVille wasn't actually using the teleport in a sustained fight--he used it to make a sneak attack on two different characters--not once do we see him attempt to use it mid-battle against Fate.

Hell, we barely see the fight as it is, and if he was teleporting, we'd probably see it happen in the few snippets we got when he battled Fate.
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Old 2011-09-11, 11:35   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Hell, we barely see the fight as it is, and if he was teleporting, we'd probably see it happen in the few snippets we got when he battled Fate.
Not only barely, we haven't actually seen anything concrete about his fight with Fate so you can't say he didn't use his insta-teleport powers against her. The only part they showed was Deville reacting and Fate using her speed to avoid an attack from him. Deville's teleport powers were already shown two times so i think the artist deemed more important show Deville's other abilities before going back with Thoma because of the short space available for his fight with Fate.

Like i've said we're gonna need to see a re-match between those two. Deville's entire status as a Lightning Bruiser is solely sustained by his instant teleport power. Without that, he's just a Mighty Glacier.
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Old 2011-09-11, 12:03   Link #30
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What abilities? They didn't even show what the armor does, aside from make him go RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH I'M ANGRY.
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Old 2011-09-11, 12:12   Link #31
Akiyoshi
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What abilities? They didn't even show what the armor does, aside from make him go RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH I'M ANGRY.
The ability to activate said armor and turn his Big Axe into an even bigger axe. Saldy, it's just like you just said, nothing more was showed aside of him going RAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!! Hope future fights show what really Deville's abilities are capable off aside of short-jumping behind people's necks xDU
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Old 2011-09-11, 12:25   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
....and still was slower than Deville's instant teleport, i remember Yuuno casting a magic circle below him and forcing him and Arf after blocking her with a barrier. Sure it was a relatively quick cast but still required some tought on it.
He blocked her with a barrier, and then teleported the both of them.

However slow the teleport seemed to us, what with Arf having the time to speak a complete sentence (though it was more like a thought, which happens faster), it was a dramatic conceit. The reality is that it happened so fast that she didn't have the time to escape.

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2011-09-11 at 16:20.
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Old 2011-09-11, 12:32   Link #33
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Well, it probably is a case of "Talking is a free action" for Arf but still. She didn't have time to react because Yuuno bati her into attacking him and prepared the teleport at the same time he's blocking her. Remember how damn good Yuuno is at multi-tasking. I think it's less a matter of quickness and more the fact that Yuuno have really good timing to prepare and set chains of spells working for certaing strategies.
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Old 2011-09-11, 16:55   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Remember how damn good Yuuno is at multi-tasking. I think it's less a matter of quickness and more the fact that Yuuno have really good timing to prepare and set chains of spells working for certaing strategies.
Which would still mean that he could use short-range teleports as part of his combat tactics.
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Old 2011-09-11, 18:46   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Signum already proved wrong said theory, she fought Cypha with her original equipement, powers and Cypha makes sure that Signum have enough motivation to attack her, the results were slightly better than the AEC equipements but it was still a failure.
Although the effect is much stronger than the equipment AEC, Signum's just not notice that it faced an enemy far more dangerous. I, like you, also feel that the Signum in this series just don't do her best as it once was, although I'm grateful that she is still alive.

Speaking of Deville, although the others are also experts in face-to-face battle, this is just me or all Huckebein prefers tactics like mugger who took the victim's belongings? I was curious. Please give me a detailed explanation.
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Old 2011-09-12, 01:31   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Every other teleporter in the franchise was aiming for a more distant location than Deville, and one they couldn't even see without magic.

It only makes sense that a short-range teleport to a place you can see would be faster, maybe even easier. Maybe even something that you learn as a intermediary step towards being able to teleport to other continents, let alone to other PLANETS.
I read it as something like FTL systems. There are some where you can travel from within a system to deep space or another system, but you need to STL for intra-system. Then there are others which are capable of tactical FTL within systems, but don't do so good over inter-system distances. Maybe it's something like that, where the principles are different so you can't just apply one to the other and say that anyone who can do a Dimensional Transfer can automatically do a Nightcrawler or vice versa.
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Old 2011-09-12, 03:03   Link #37
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well, maybe he's better at it now. yuuno was a kid there
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Old 2011-09-12, 14:08   Link #38
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Deville seems to have a delay in his teleportations.
Could it be he goes into "subspace" ?
The place where you can see but can`t be seen. "lol Star Trek."
The idea of a delayed teleportation into a opponent`s blind spot is really pushing it...
What does Deville`s NEXT says about it ?

About incantations, I don`t remember any Driver using something like that.

Does Arnage need ammo for every kind of weapons she can transform her divider into or the ammo transforms as well ?
She`s using missiles with guiding system !
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Old 2011-09-13, 21:20   Link #39
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Zero Hurricane View Post
It looks pretty good, but even better is if they immediately make a weaponized vaccine that will be installed to each Device. Maybe such a high dosage magical tranquilizer that capable to destroying Eclipse influence once and for all.
I think you meant antidote. They better make it a fast-acting one though.

And it would be a challenge on firing them due to the no-kill policy. Hit them when they're flying too high and the heroes would be heroically obliged to save them from going SPLAT

Quote:
At least put a hot lead into somebody's head, or more extreme, behead someone, could be a last resort when faced with such an enemy. As we know, since the Strikers, the enemy faced increasingly strong, even the enemy's behavior became more and more wild and uncontrollable. Even there is a enemy who couldn't be befriended.

As Mao Zedong said: "The true power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
Well the problem with that is that the heroes have a no-kill policy, and I doubt Tsuzuki will ever have the balls to change that. Which is fine when they can fire spells that can puncture battleships while leaving organics battered but alive, but wooops, they don't fire magic anymore....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Every other teleporter in the franchise was aiming for a more distant location than Deville, and one they couldn't even see without magic.

It only makes sense that a short-range teleport to a place you can see would be faster, maybe even easier. Maybe even something that you learn as a intermediary step towards being able to teleport to other continents, let alone to other PLANETS.
Quote:
Same with Nanoha, allowing her shields to spread away from herself before appearing. It's not that he's going teleport crazy, but rather that he's being pragmatic with it. Which isn't the most clevar thing in the history of evar, but is a whole lot more ruthless than about 99% of the antagonists in all of the series.
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Let's also keep in mind that DeVille wasn't actually using the teleport in a sustained fight--he used it to make a sneak attack on two different characters--not once do we see him attempt to use it mid-battle against Fate.

Hell, we barely see the fight as it is, and if he was teleporting, we'd probably see it happen in the few snippets we got when he battled Fate.
Back in season one I think there's a scene where Yuuno teleported Arf and himself away from the Fate VS Nanoha fight and IIRC it took him a moment of spellcasting, so it's probably not instantaneous. Useful for entering fights, but probably not something he can spam. They're different from flash-steps IMO

But yes, teleportation as a whole is a very underused aspect in the later Nanoha stories, whether it be in tactical or strategic level, which is an unpleasant suprise considering how they've abused them in TOS and A's

The "Search for Touma" par in Touma would probably end faster (though with Signum still KO'ed considering she would be playing vanguard) had Hayate sent someone, whether someone teleport-capable or just by using teleportation pads on the Wolfram, to recover the trio in the meantime.

Quote:
The Wolkenritter... Well, the side materials say that Dimensional Teleport isn't normally a spell Ancient Belkans learned or used, so short-range movement may be something they've never actively tried to master or incorporate into their fighting styles. Especially since they can already move pretty darn fast, conventionally. Probably went against their knightly idea of combat, just like shooting and bombardment magic, and capture spells.
Shooting and bombardment? Signum didn't seem to have any problems using Sturm Falken.

(not to mention that chivalry died because of the rise of superior firepower, something that the Wolkies possess in a frightening amount, so you really must wonder just what her standards of chivalry are )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuze View Post
- Engaging in enclosed spaces, and not going MAXIMUM POWER, is inconclusive. The Huckebein are too resistant (and sufficiently skilled in weapons handling) to be put down by anything less than going postal, one on one.

- This also means that re;Deville, the proper exchange against him is for Fate to attack, and /then/ Nanoha blasts him with Full Power once Fate is clear, instead of just looking on. But then again, teamwork had ....trouble in StrikerS also. Too much already said in that old military thread, Tsuzuki hasn't improved his writing there, moving on.
I, too, like the idea of teamwork very much. But alas, Tsuzuki's attempts at it (or lack of thereof) has been really disappointing...

Quote:
- Going for proper ambushes and most importantly not letting H's react would work quite well, yes.
Speaking of ambushes, I wonder if the TSAB has any early warning systems in their colonies especially since every Eclipse infectee's seems to always target unprotected villages. How are they going to respond to new attacks - follow the trail of dead civilians?

Quote:
but there's always the Kenshin route of creating vacuums with your lesser ougi and expecting the full out power to not do anything like, I dunno, kill Shishio?
Ougi...and the Nanohaverse equivalent is magic, isn't? I don't remember the AEC's having magical coatings in their shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Does Arnage need ammo for every kind of weapons she can transform her divider into or the ammo transforms as well ?
She`s using missiles with guiding system !
Probably. Makes you wonder where she procure them though. Maybe their ship can manufacture them?
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Old 2011-09-13, 21:54   Link #40
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Tiresias, some of your quotation attributions are very off.


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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Shooting and bombardment? Signum didn't seem to have any problems using Sturm Falken.
The Bogenform and Sturmfalke are a cheat.

In a world of magical bullets and beams, why a bow? Why arrows?

Archery is a way to force the Belkan System to do something it normally sucks at. A bow is a handheld weapon, and an arrow is a solid blade.

Laevantein can't turn into something Raising Heart's shooting mode, and Signum can't cast something like Divine Shooter.

But with Bogenform and arrows, Signum can concentrate her strong, sharp cutting power into the arrow. She can also pack in more power than would normally be adviseable for a melee attack, since the arrow will impact a target at a safe distance from her.


Vita has better faculty with shooting magic, but even she has to create physical projectiles and directly launch them with Graf Eisen. She's also working to cheat around the limitations of their style.


The closest that Zaphira gets to a ranged attack is his Steel Yoke spell. Even Arf was capable of using basic magical bullets, and she doesn't have nearly the same years of experience he does.


Shamal doesn't count, because she breaks every single damn rule. She might as well be using Midchild Style like Yuuno because there's basically no difference between what they do, save that she has a Device to help her out.


Shache also doesn't use projectiles; she has to rely on traveling air-pressure melee strikes.

...Wait, didn't Shache catch Sein with a short-range teleport through a wall?


Subaru's Divine Buster has pitiful range, Erio doesn't have a single projectile attack despite learning from Fate...



Quote:
Back in season one I think there's a scene where Yuuno teleported Arf and himself away from the Fate VS Nanoha fight and IIRC it took him a moment of spellcasting, so it's probably not instantaneous. Useful for entering fights, but probably not something he can spam. They're different from flash-steps IMO
But Yuuno did it so fast that Arf didn't have time to jump away.

He jumped in, casting the barrier, caught Arf on it, trash-talked the familiar, and then cast the forced teleport so fast that Arf could only think "CRAP!" before they were gone.

And if he was able to do a forced teleport that fast, how much quicker could he move himself and an unresisting target? Or just himself?

As for Flash Move, he likely taught Nanoha that move himself, just like he taught her flight.


Quote:
not to mention that chivalry died because of the rise of superior firepower, something that the Wolkies possess in a frightening amount, so you really must wonder just what her standards of chivalry are
The Wolkenritter are ancient even for Ancient Belka, though. They probably predated the time that Belka started using mass-based weapon in bulk. Probably before the ages when the rulers began to modify themselves.


Quote:
I, too, like the idea of teamwork very much. But alas, Tsuzuki's attempts at it (or lack of thereof) has been really disappointing...
For all of the hoopla about Nakama and the power of friendship, I can't really recall honest teamwork in a shounen or seinen series.

Generally it just comes down to loaning your powers to the Real Hero, then sitting back and watching him win the fight basically on his own.

Kingdom Hearts II was a lot better about this in the final battle. *smiles at the memory* Yeah.

I mean, yeah, at one point Sora is wailing on the Big Bad with Riku's keyblade as well as his own, but they worked together to land the final blow, and Riku got his own licks in.

Of course, up to that point, the game just proves the point by having Sora absorb his teammates to use their powers to kick ass by himself. Whereas the teamwork attacks were often confusing and I didn't use them as much.

Shame.

I would have preferred a rotating control system, where I'd take control of the fighter, mage or magic-fighter based on the situation, leaving the other two characters to the computer's AI.
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