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Old 2011-09-13, 22:36   Link #41
Tiresias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Tiresias, some of your quotation attributions are very off.
Really? Hmm, I guess it's because I always prefer to cut-and-group similar topics and respond to them as one. Sometimes I got confused myself, really...

Quote:
The Bogenform and Sturmfalke are a cheat.

In a world of magical bullets and beams, why a bow? Why arrows?
I was responding to your "Probably went against their knightly idea of combat, just like shooting and bomdardment magic" comment

The fact that they have ranged spells, even if mostly inferior to Midchildan, and that they would use it when situation demand, meant that no, ranged magic is not against their knightly idea of combat. It may not be their specialty, but they do not despise it.

And I doubt that quick-teleports, should they exist, would be against that code either. Heavy cavalries rarely charge from the front, they usually flank, something quick-teleports would be useful for.

Quote:
Archery is a way to force the Belkan System to do something it normally sucks at. A bow is a handheld weapon, and an arrow is a solid blade.
Archery is not a way to "force" them, it's a way to give them alternatives so that they can fight back against ranged enemies. Besides, Samurai's, Mamluk's and Sipahi's uses bows as well as swords and armor, and they never consider it to be dishonorable. Nor do they suck at archery.

Quote:
But Yuuno did it so fast that Arf didn't have time to jump away.

He jumped in, casting the barrier, caught Arf on it, trash-talked the familiar, and then cast the forced teleport so fast that Arf could only think "CRAP!" before they were gone.
And he never used it again for the rest of the battle, so just like DeVille, it seems that those kind of teleports are only feasible against unsuspecting enemies.

Quote:
The Wolkenritter are ancient even for Ancient Belka, though. They probably predated the time that Belka started using mass-based weapon in bulk. Probably before the ages when the rulers began to modify themselves.
You're missing my point. The idea of knights withered because advances in technology increases the firepower a soldier can unleash, making direct charges against them most of the time suicidal. And the Wolkies have possessed that kind of firepower for as long as they know.

Their styles and design may be medieval, but the destruction they can unleash is very much modern.

Quote:
For all of the hoopla about Nakama and the power of friendship, I can't really recall honest teamwork in a shounen or seinen series.
Mainly because another common gimmick in such series are "honorable" one-on-one duel between the Hero and the Villain, leaving little room for the allies to contribute.

Shame, really. It made me remember this:
Quote:
This is something the captain's got to do for himself.
No, it's not!
Oh. *They open fire*
Then again the "Taming Touma" part pitted Nanoha, Fate and Isis against one Avenir, so...
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Old 2011-09-13, 23:04   Link #42
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
The fact that they have ranged spells, even if mostly inferior to Midchildan, and that they would use it when situation demand, meant that no, ranged magic is not against their knightly idea of combat. It may not be their specialty, but they do not despise it.
I... don't think I suggested that they did?


Quote:
And I doubt that quick-teleports, should they exist, would be against that code either. Heavy cavalries rarely charge from the front, they usually flank, something quick-teleports would be useful for.
Which leads toward the idea that Belka Style just sucks at teleportation. If it weren't for the Book of Darkness, they wouldn't have Dimensional Teleport. But it was a necessity for their job as guardians of an Evil Artifact of Doom, so one way or another, they got it.


Quote:
And he never used it again for the rest of the battle, so just like DeVille, it seems that those kind of teleports are only feasible against unsuspecting enemies.
We only see a snippet of Yuuno's fight with Arf, and for his objective of "keep the familiar away so Nanoha can duel uninterrupted", he was being successful enough just running away and letting Arf chase him.

Like I said before, Yuuno was still recovering his magical power. He wasn't going to spend any more effort on Arf than he had to.

According to Yuuno himself in the Sound Stages, it wasn't until MONTHS after the Precia Incident ended that Yuuno's magic finally finished recovering. The poor boy keep pushing himself too much after exhausting himself at the start of the whole thing.


Ah, Firefly.

"I'll hunt you until death!"
"Darn" *kicks him into the jet intake*

Man, I was NOT expecting that one. Made me laugh.
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Old 2011-09-14, 00:06   Link #43
Justin_Brett
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For all of the hoopla about Nakama and the power of friendship, I can't really recall honest teamwork in a shounen or seinen series.
One Piece, during the Oz fight and against that one Pacifistia in the Shabondy Arc.

It also happens frequently in JoJo, due to how the fights tend to go in that.
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Old 2011-09-14, 11:19   Link #44
Sheba
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Jojo is usually what shounen fans should look at when you think teamwork. The more well-known example being Polnareff and Kakyoin vs J.Gail. A more tragic example would be, in the same part, Polnareff, Abdul and Iggy vs Vanilla Ice. In Jojo part 4, you have Hayato and Josuke vs the main antagonist. Part 5 had Mista and Giorno vs Giacco (the user of the Stand White Album). Then Part 6 have a brilliant battle of Jolyne and Hermes against the Stand Underworld.
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Old 2011-09-14, 11:28   Link #45
Arkeus
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Or of course you can have HxH, where pretty much every Arc has at least one Teamwork battle, if not 3 or 4.

The 'people talking about teamwork but never using it' is usually reserved to the more childish Shounens.. which tends to be the more famous.
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Old 2011-09-14, 11:48   Link #46
Justin_Brett
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Oh yeah, there was also Usopp and Chopper fighting those two Baroques Works members in Alabasta.
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Old 2011-09-17, 09:40   Link #47
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So, with the latest translated chapter of Force, my mind is drifting closer to one particular theory. Let me use this imaginary conversation to explain it...

Scientist: "We've invented this new combat robot!"
Corporate guy #1: "Hmm, nice, but the TSAB relies on mages, not robots. They'll never buy it."
Corporate guy #2: "What if they couldn't rely on magic?"
CG #1: "What do you mean?"
CG #2: "I've heard of this Huckbein family operating outside Bureau space. They normally keep a bit of a low profile, but they have this interesting anti-magic property. If we could arrange for them to wreck some carnage in Bureau space..."
CG #1: "But why would they do that? They would know the Bureau would come down hard on them."
CG #2: "Everyone has something they want. We just have to provide it. And we can sell them weapons, too."
CG #1: "So we engineer a conflict and end up selling weapons to both sides. Nice."

Robots of that complexity would take some time to develop, and the speech given by the corporate scientist there, gives me the impression she's trying to sell those robots to the TSAB. It doesn't take much for me to see the threads of Caledfwlch and Vandin working together in order to create a conflict and then sell weapons to both sides.
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Old 2011-09-17, 09:43   Link #48
Sunder the Gold
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It's the same theory I've heard since the beginning, and it still sounds very plausible.


But explain why they felt the need to give the robots human faces? Even just the lower half.

It's creepy, especially when you just KNOW these things are going to be used as disposable weapons.



Anyway, I'm going to go with the following ideas about Short Jumping:

1) Fast speed and Flash/Sonic Moves are generally a lot less trouble to learn and use, especially with the Ancient Belkan magic system.

2) Short Jumping is still useful for people who otherwise can't move very fast, and helps launch surprise attacks because there's no possible way to catch you traveling from Point A to Point B.

3) It's really only good for catching a distracted opponent off-guard, not so much for using in the middle of an active engagement. Especially against an opponent as fast as Fate. When facing speed, speed is a better answer.
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Old 2011-09-17, 10:16   Link #49
Kuze
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Actually going by the Force Next article, they have complete faces and everything, just no personality allowed at all.

Truthfully, I was thinking that they used Jail's research to get started, and also based the models off of an original body, you know, kinda like Star Wars without the clones (specifically nonsentient to get around the whole sending them in mass to die, or the ethical and moral horrors of creating more combat cyborgs)

Of course:

a) They suspiciously look like someone we've already seen, although I refuse to speculate any further on this point until we have any kind of solid confirmation, the end.

b) They're gonna put a mega buster on one of them sooner or later. Good bye nonsentience, hello reploids.

c) The outfit they're wearing isn't too bad, but seriously, that god damn helmet needs to go. There are a eleventy trillions different permutations or styles that would've been just fine rather than what they're wearing.
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Old 2011-09-17, 10:18   Link #50
Sunder the Gold
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The helmets are ugly, yes.

Personally, I just want to ignore that StrikerS and Force ever happened, with the exception of the characters and elements that I actually liked, which might be used for better stories.

But that's not a theory or speculation, so I guess it's off-topic.
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Old 2011-09-17, 11:40   Link #51
Justin_Brett
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Does that article say what the helmets DO besides looking ridiculous?
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Old 2011-09-17, 12:00   Link #52
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Anyway, I'm going to go with the following ideas about Short Jumping:

1) Fast speed and Flash/Sonic Moves are generally a lot less trouble to learn and use, especially with the Ancient Belkan magic system.

2) Short Jumping is still useful for people who otherwise can't move very fast, and helps launch surprise attacks because there's no possible way to catch you traveling from Point A to Point B.

3) It's really only good for catching a distracted opponent off-guard, not so much for using in the middle of an active engagement. Especially against an opponent as fast as Fate. When facing speed, speed is a better answer.
The thing is, Deville lacks enough "speed" to fight Fate evenly, that's why i think he must really on his short jump ability in order to keep up with her speed. He's a big muscled man acarrying a Big Axe that tranforms into an enormous axe. Without inta-teleport, Fate will be able to land at least over 50 hits on him before the man can even move his weapon towards her xDU.
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Old 2011-09-17, 12:36   Link #53
Sunder the Gold
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That said, we see no evidence that he uses his teleport against her in the fight. Instead, he sees the need to transform into a form that is even bigger, stronger and harder to hurt.

Which suggests that his evasion and ambush ability is simply not up to the task of fighting Fate. Which suggests to me that he's not teleporting.


The two times he did teleport, his targets were already engaged with fighting someone else, and he started from a point where no one saw or shot at him. There was no one pressuring him as he was preparing the teleport.

And once he's engaged, he doesn't teleport again.

So it's apparently only an openning move that he typically doesn't have to repeat, given that his one blow should kill the opponent. Nanoha's fortress blocked the blow, and Isis should have died from a broken neck.
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Old 2011-09-17, 12:49   Link #54
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
That said, we see no evidence that he uses his teleport against her in the fight.
We also lack solid evidence of Deville NOT using his short jump during that match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Instead, he sees the need to transform into a form that is even bigger, stronger and harder to hurt.
That lacks support, we didn't see Deville teleporting after Fate engagged him simply because that's the only thing we see about said match besides Deville's transformation. And if you're saying said tranformationg will make more likely reduce Deville's speed and movility even more, that will make the Short Jump an even more pivotal ability to complement his fightstyle don't ya think?

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
So it's apparently only an openning move that he typically doesn't have to repeat, given that his one blow should kill the opponent. Nanoha's fortress blocked the blow, and Isis should have died from a broken neck.
Nanoha's Fortress didn't block Deville's blow, it was Fate(the Fortress utterly fails to protect Nanoha aginst Deville).
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Old 2011-09-17, 12:51   Link #55
Justin_Brett
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'Well you didn't see it NOT happening!' is a pretty terrible argument for this.
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Old 2011-09-17, 12:56   Link #56
Akiyoshi
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'Well you didn't see it NOT happening!' is a pretty terrible argument for this.
Well, i think is fair against "It didn't happened because it didn't appeared in a fight that was completely skipped" xDU.
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Old 2011-09-17, 12:58   Link #57
Justin_Brett
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This series has failed to show things happening pretty consistently in its artwork, as well, so who knows?
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Old 2011-09-17, 12:59   Link #58
Akiyoshi
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This series has failed to show things happening pretty consistently in its artwork, as well, so who knows?
But this is one of the few times a fight was completely skipped yet people take said fight as the base for their arguments xDU.
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Old 2011-09-17, 13:35   Link #59
Sunder the Gold
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But this is one of the few times a fight was completely skipped yet people take said fight as the base for their arguments xDU.
Including Yuuno's fight against Arf and also his fight against Vita.

No one has yet seen a need to argue about Arf's two fights with Zaphira.


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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
We also lack solid evidence of Deville NOT using his short jump during that match.
True, and I certainly can't argue that quick teleportation in the middle of a fight is impossible, given that we saw Yuuno do that PLUS force-teleport Arf away with him.

So, it may be that Short Jumping in the middle of a fight is not difficult to execute, but pointless. Or at least pointless against someone as fast and mobile as Fate.

Nanoha was not able to detect the teleport happening; she didn't react until Deville had already appeared behind her. Unless Fate has superior extra-dimensional senses, she's probably not able to sense where Deville would re-appear either.

What she CAN do is anticipate where he'll reappear next. And HE had to choose his destination by anticipating where SHE was going to be in the next half-second, which is difficult considering how fast she can move.

And as soon as Fate sees him disappear, she can Sonic Move away from her last position really fast.

It's like Fate's playing Whackamole with a machine that shoots a baseball before popping out a mole. She doesn't always know where the ball will come from, but odds are good that she'll smack it before it hits her, or dodge while swinging at the mole before it disappears again.


Quote:
Nanoha's Fortress didn't block Deville's blow, it was Fate(the Fortress utterly fails to protect Nanoha aginst Deville).
Ah yes. My bad.

One moment, Deville saw a clear opportunity to cut Nanoha down, and then half a moment later he's surprised by this blonde mage appearing out of nowhere so fast HE thought SHE teleported.

This seems to lend credence to the idea that Deville's teleportation simply isn't a match for Fate's reaction and movement speed.

He'd probably give Subaru, Ginga and Nove a lot of trouble, since their Wing Roads make their paths predictable enough for him to counter, even given their speed. And while they're canonically faster than Nanoha (I think), there's been no comparison to Fate's speed yet.
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Old 2011-09-17, 13:38   Link #60
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Huh? When was that stated, exactly? Nanoha's far from slow.
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