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Old 2011-08-22, 03:53   Link #2321
al103
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I suddenly understood why Nakajimas are Nakajima. Now somebody can tell me that it's totally not because of our favorite Tanuki... I wouldn't believe you anyway!

PS. Page claim for Tanuki Admiral!
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Old 2011-09-10, 14:28   Link #2322
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Does anyone have an adequate explaination for why Scaglietti didn't train the Numbers to use magic?

He uses magic himself, he started the technology to clone/create Artificial Mages, various of the numbers are clones of mages, and Nove definitely shows that they can use regular Devices and magic just as well as the Type 0 sisters.

Without magic, only one of his Cyborgs was really able to defeat a strong mage. And we don't know what the circumstances of the Cinque/Zest fight were like; it may just not have been in Zest's favor.

It took Tre and Sette together to give Fate trouble, and that was with the help of the AMF. If the both of them used magic to expand their range of tricks, they probably would have won.

If magic and Intelligent/Armed Devices weren't useful, why would Nove start using them later?

Thoughts?
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Old 2011-09-10, 14:36   Link #2323
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Does anyone have an adequate explaination for why Scaglietti didn't train the Numbers to use magic?
Because the numbers were intended to function in AMF conditions, and their IS gave them more than enough ability to do so.

Training them in magic would have been a waste of time, and lowered their skills in other areas (as they would have to take time of training from that to train in magic) all so they could have an ability which would already be barely functioning due to the battlefield conditions.

RF6 didn't defeat the numbers because they had magic, they defeated the numbers because they had superior training/experience/tactical abilities/firepower (circle which applies) training the numbers in magic would not magically have made them just as powerful.
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Old 2011-09-10, 19:37   Link #2324
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Plus, let's be honest here...

Otto (B Rank equivalent) nearly killed Zafira (A rank) and Shamal (AA rank) with one attack.

Deed (B Rank equivalent) nearly killed Erio (estimated to be around A rank).

Nove (AAA), Wendi and Cinque beat Ginga (A rank) without killing her (harder to do).

Yes, under AMF conditions, but, who cares, that's how it goes.
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Old 2011-09-10, 20:00   Link #2325
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Besides, fighting under AMF conditions is what they were designed to do. It'd be like complaining that Nanoha only wins because she has Raising Heart and that she wouldn't have won any of her battles without it.

Also, Cinque tied with a berserking Subaru. A berserking Subaru equipped with an IS that was quite literally described as a cyborgs worst enemy.

And they repeatedly beat the crap out of every mook they encountered. Now granted, beating mooks doesn't sound like much of an accomplishment from the viewer's chair, but you have to remember that mooks tend to make up 99% of an army in fiction. And anyone who can beat 99% of your army deserves praise.
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Old 2011-09-10, 20:08   Link #2326
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So why'd Nove decide to change?
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Old 2011-09-10, 20:10   Link #2327
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Because she started working for the bureau, and the bureau does like its personnel to practice magic if able.
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Old 2011-09-11, 01:53   Link #2328
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And they repeatedly beat the crap out of every mook they encountered. Now granted, beating mooks doesn't sound like much of an accomplishment from the viewer's chair, but you have to remember that mooks tend to make up 99% of an army in fiction. And anyone who can beat 99% of your army deserves praise.
Oh, like blowing up 50+ Gadget Drones in one attack xD?

Well, to be fair the numbers are indeed a very effective task force, they have limited abilities(even the most basic of the captains like Signum have at least three or four tricks under the sleeve while most of the numbers are one-trick wonders) but complement each other very well(Otto take down Zafira thanks to Deed's help while Deed would have a hard battle against Shamal if not for Otto's Ray Storm and the Gadget Army). They have teamwork, equipement and timing which allowed them to attack the heroes at their key weak points in the right moment causing their response capacity to collapse.

It's ironic because Nanoha tried to teach temwork to the forwards and are the numbers the ones that really demonstrater how to cover each other weaknesses, the heroes win in the end because they manage to disrupt their combinations and win mostly on separated battles, not much teamwork here xDU(at least the battles are really amazing xD).
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Old 2011-09-11, 09:14   Link #2329
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
It's ironic because Nanoha tried to teach temwork to the forwards and are the numbers the ones that really demonstrater how to cover each other weaknesses, the hores win in the end because they manage to disrupt their combinations and win mostly on separated battles, not much teamwork here xDU(at least the battles are really amazing xD).
It IS ironic.

So is your typo of "heroes", which phonetically comes across as "whores".


But yes, the Numbers were consistently a far better example of teamwork than the heroines.

At the same time, they also demonstrated how ill-advised it is to be a bunch of one-trick ponies who can be defeated when someone breaks their teamwork.
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Old 2011-09-11, 10:47   Link #2330
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
It IS ironic.

So is your typo of "heroes", which phonetically comes across as "whores".
Fixed.

That wasn't on purpouse, i was an accident, i swear xDU

*slaps his own hand*

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At the same time, they also demonstrated how ill-advised it is to be a bunch of one-trick ponies who can be defeated when someone breaks their teamwork.
Well, yeah, not that Scaglietti can do much about that, still it was one of the high achievements of the Numbers, they manage to do more with less.
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Old 2011-09-19, 20:38   Link #2331
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Cost-benefit analysis and flawed paradigm. Scaglietti and the Bureau aren't the only ones to suffer from that.

Scaglietti creates the Numbers with IS and focuses on attacking using that. Since each IS has a specific use, he then attempts to cover their weaknesses by having them work in teams. Aware that the Bureau uses magic, which can be more versatile in use, he thus deploys them with heavy AMF support - the kind that will disrupt 99% of the Bureau's mages.

As Keroko pointed out, anything that can take out 99% of whatever army you have is a threat.

So long as AMF is in place and so long as the Numbers are not facing monsters like the Aces, they prevail - note that they cut and run when Nanoha, Fate and Hayate showed up together in Episode 16, but in later episodes attempt to counter them (i.e. Soulgain Number and her sister vs Fate during the Bureau HQ raid) when they're separated. Doesn't quite always work, however.

Going back to the flawed paradigm, an argument can be made that Jail expects to maintain his AMF and that the Bureau will not be able to send sufficiently powerful mages against the Numbers, which leads him to a sense of stagnant overconfidence. Yes, his Numbers can be countered due to being Cripplingly Overspecialised, but he believes that so long they're all around they can protect each other. *shrugs* Not the first bad judgment call that's happened in-universe.

For a real world example... there's far to many to count, actually. Many bad decisions have been made because of the flawed paradigms of the decision makers.

Also, rewatching StrikerS, it occured to me that throughout the portrayals of the TSAB in Nanoha, A's and StrikerS, it appears that the one service that is on the ball is the Navy. Which would make a certain amount of sense, given that they're out to see and doing the space equivalent of maritime patrols...
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Old 2011-09-19, 23:02   Link #2332
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Rather, the division of Navy, Air and Ground Forces makes absolutely no sense to me.

Interstellar and Plantery divisions make sense, in the same way the FBI handles federal crime and the state police handle local crime.

Dividing individual planetary forces into "air and ground" when mages can learn to fly without vehicles confuses me.

Of course, using helicopters to deliver troops to target locations is also ridiculous when you have TELEPORTATION technology.

Basically, I think SevenArcs aped mundane reality way too much, ignoring the realities of their own established MAGICAL, SPACE-FARING setting and how those realities would impact military operations.
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Old 2011-09-19, 23:51   Link #2333
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Dividing individual planetary forces into "air and ground" when mages can learn to fly without vehicles confuses me.
A bit nitpicky, but not all mages can fly *cough* Teana *cough*

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Of course, using helicopters to deliver troops to target locations is also ridiculous when you have TELEPORTATION technology.
There are uses for non-teleportation mode of transport. Not all mages can teleport or fly, so there has to be something to ferry them in and out of the battlefield. The existence of AMF is also a reason; in case of emergencies like when teleportation spells are disrupted by AMF an alternative must be available.

Not to mention the only time we saw people being teleported without personal spells are by ship-based teleporters so there's a possibility that such equipments are Navy-exclusive; a very stupid exclusivity, but I got the impression of interservice rivalry during StrikerS so maybe that's the reason. Or maybe teleportation pads are expensive, like many sophisticated military equipments.

So the existence of helicopters are justified. To a degree. There are however somethings that's still unjustified, such as:
1. That Riot Force 6 continued to only use even late in the story, even when they got the Asura. You know, the same ship that has already proven capable of teleporting them into distant battlefields several times?
2. That it's a helicopter instead of a jet or antigrav VTOL. Those rotor-blades makes for a huge "HIT ME!!!" sign.

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...ignoring the realities of their own established MAGICAL, SPACE-FARING setting and how those realities would impact military operations.
This I whole-heartedly agree. (which is why I like In the Service)
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Old 2011-09-20, 00:22   Link #2334
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
A bit nitpicky, but not all mages can fly
Then the ground-pounders don't get to join the aerial mage squads. That still doesn't mean that the flying mages need to answer to an entirely different chain of command than the ground mages.

Especially when the flying mages STARTED as ground mages. Should you really have to switch which military branch you belong to? Should one branch of the military REALLY lose mages to another branch because those mages became too awesome for the ground forces?

No wonder Gaiz was so irritable and desperate.


Quote:
Not all mages can teleport
You don't even need to be mage to teleport; you just need teleporter technology.

Though we've never seen anyone but mages make use of teleporter machines, so maybe those things are only capable of boosting teleportation magic rather than doing it on their own?

If that was indeed the case, I would gladly concede to the usefulness of helicopters for dispatching troops who cannot fly.


Quote:
2. That it's a helicopter instead of a jet or antigrav VTOL. Those rotor-blades makes for a huge "HIT ME!!!" sign.
I suppose so.


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This I whole-heartedly agree. (which is why I like In the Service)
There's a lot to like about "In The Service".

Spoiler for stuff:
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Old 2011-09-20, 00:37   Link #2335
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Imagine teleporting into an unknown trap. You'd feel pretty stupid for warping there, huh? Helicopters at least let you know what's what on the battlefield before actually landing there, and can attempt to move its passengers in case there's a danger that wasn't immediately apparent before. And the helicopter can do it faster than preparing another teleport, which can take time.
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Old 2011-09-20, 01:03   Link #2336
Tiresias
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Imagine teleporting into an unknown trap.
If there are worries about it being traps, then just don't teleport directly into the position. Teleport the air mages (main attack) and jet VTOL (emergency medivac in case there are teleportation jammers inside the enemy controlled points) to a reasonable distance from the target like say, 20-25 kilometers? Your average fighter jet can go up to Mach 2 so if we assume an air mage can do the same that distance can be covered quickly.

To have your air mages and helicopters fly all the way from the Athra into the battlefield is a waste of precious time. Remember that they were working on a tight schedule and must sabotage the Cradle before it can go into a certain position.

Quote:
Helicopters at least let you know what's what on the battlefield before actually landing there,
Area Search spells, ship-based scrying (as used by the Athra over the course of the two previous seasons) and UAV's would be more suitable for that purpose. Not to mention that Nanohaverse helicopters are completely unarmed (and scouts gets attacked a lot) so in case they want to return fire who are going to do the shooting? The passengers.

Quote:
and can attempt to move its passengers in case there's a danger that wasn't immediately apparent before. And the helicopter can do it faster than preparing another teleport, which can take time.
Which leaves this as their only uses. Of course, that doesn't answer on why it's a heli instead of a jet or antigrav VTOL.
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Old 2011-09-20, 02:54   Link #2337
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I need to remind you that teleportation can and will be countered. For example in the end of first season it would've been oh so easy to just teleport to reactor core and shut it down... yet heroes go through layers of defense. Then we have 'ritters barriers that prevent teleportation. AMF itself most likely nothing good in that department.

PS. Not to mention shielding all major population centers (like, you know, whole planet of Mid-Childa) from teleportation even if it's crippling your own mobility is very good decision - terrorism and all that...
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Old 2011-09-20, 03:04   Link #2338
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Lutecia had no difficulties teleporting Gadget Drones to attack the hotel so if there's any shielding, it's not thorough enough to encompass an entire planet.

Not to mention I've never heard of teleportation shielding. I want it to exist since it would explain a lot of things, but I never recall any source. And unless we know the specs we wouldn't know just how big an area it could cover.
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Old 2011-09-20, 05:22   Link #2339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Lutecia had no difficulties teleporting Gadget Drones to attack the hotel so if there's any shielding, it's not thorough enough to encompass an entire planet.
It's Lutecia's specialization. That talented/skilled/knowledgeable mage can get through defense is really not surprising.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Not to mention I've never heard of teleportation shielding. I want it to exist since it would explain a lot of things, but I never recall any source. And unless we know the specs we wouldn't know just how big an area it could cover.
We didn't heard of many things that were shown much later. Defense against teleportation is much more plausible than so many cases of idiocy.

PS. Also we DID hear about it. Barriers that 'ritters did in Aces were explicitly anti-teleportation too, even if it was easier to get in than get out.
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Last edited by al103; 2011-09-20 at 07:00.
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Old 2011-09-20, 07:30   Link #2340
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If there was something that could prevent teleportation, Precia would have used it to prevent anyone from beaming onto her Garden. I'm more inclined to believe the teleporter needs to have a mental image of where they are going, so they don't end up teleporting into a wall or something.
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