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Old 2011-09-22, 16:26   Link #201
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
And still the anime found time to flesh out the Wolkenritter very well, even dedicated an entire flashback chapter, their motivations and feelings towards Hayate remained an important plot point during all the season. I've fallen in love with the Wolks long before knowing about the existence of the Sound Stages.
Aye, but not the pre-Hayate background, and that's what I meant. The manga seems to be doing the Hucks expanding right now.

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To be honest, the amount of fanservice in Force has been very modest. The sretchiness on the plot comes mostly from overly drawn basic moves from the characters, bad pacing in most battles and the fact that they spent two years showing just one aspect of the Hucks again and again: that they're ruthless jerks. We already know that, move on!
You're still counting in years and chapters, not events. It's events that matter when telling a story, not the amount of time between releasing chapters.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:35   Link #202
Akiyoshi
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Aye, but not the pre-Hayate background, and that's what I meant. The manga seems to be doing the Hucks expanding right now.
The Pre-Hayate background was not really necessary to understand their motives, it's a nice complement but not pivotal.

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You're still counting in years and chapters, not events. It's events that matter when telling a story, not the amount of time between releasing chapters.
I was about to agree with you, i wanted to agreed in all honestly. But time between chapters and how the story gets around that is, in fact, important. Some readers can't just stop time in their minds and hearts until next chapter is released, something bad happens and we remain with a bad feeling until next chapter appear or things get resolved, the longer that takes, the deeper those feelings will root.

I spent about 24 hours wanting Vita's head on a plate, i spent over two months thinking roy Mustang was an amoral murderer, and i spent almost TWO years thinking the Huckebein are a group of ruthless a-holes. I recovered really fast from Vita but it takes some time to re-arrange my toughts and feelings towards Colonel Mustang. Only god knows how much time i will need to digest the Huckebein's freudian excuse to accept them as good, misunderstood people ...or to re-accept Signum as a competent knight deserving a place among the elite.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:44   Link #203
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It IS a monthly release xDU. And if Tsuzuki is ok with overstreching the story in the same freakin battle for over a year then he clearly isn't aiming to appeal to a wide margin of readers, just to the ones loyal enough to withstand it ...or the ones too obsessed over his flaws to stop reading(yeah xD).



Do you have an example of a good excution of this? Cause i really like to know if there is one out there.



And still ViVid feels better executed than Force characterization wise.
Now I definitely think there would be a benefit for you to reread it all in one go. You will perhaps find it different if you do.

Examples? Yeah just go read more variety and you will find there are series that the development are slow and for a reason. First thought that comes to mind was 07 Ghost, Ares, and Saint Seiya. I remember there were others too but can't seem to remember them all since I have read so many over time.

Lol about Vivid. I agree. I still don't think Force is that bad. Just a good simple question, besides the flaws that you think, are you still enjoying Force?
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:47   Link #204
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The Pre-Hayate background was not really necessary to understand their motives, it's a nice complement but not pivotal.
Agreed, this was mostly in reply to Sunder's desire to see the Hucks past.

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I was about to agree with you, i wanted to agreed in all honestly. But time between chapters and how the story gets around that is, in fact, important. Some readers can't just stop time in their minds and hearts until next chapter is released, something bad happens and we remain with a bad feeling until next chapter appear or things get resolved, the longer that takes, the deeper those feelings will root.

I spent about 24 hours wanting Vita's head on a plate, i spent over two months thinking roy Mustang was an amoral murderer, and i spent almost TWO years thinking the Huckebein are a group of ruthless a-holes. I recovered really fast from Vita but it takes some time to re-arrange my toughts and feelings towards Colonel Mustang. Only god knows how much time i will need to digest the Huckebein's freudian excuse to accept them as good, misunderstood people.
Until the chapter comes out that explains their background and motivation, and leaves you to stew on that for a month. Though again, the Hucks are not the same as the Wolkies, so the chances of their excuse being as sympathy-invoking is slim. It will most likely be designed to do the same thing we have been doing ourselves: Spark moral debates.

You can't magically force the plot to go faster short of increasing the page count (and there's a whole lot of other problems that come along with that idea) Oh sure, you could trim a few pages here and there, but plot happens at a pace for a reason.

Now, all this has left me very curious on your stance, Aki. What would you have done differently in writing the story?
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:48   Link #205
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I was about to agree with you, i wanted to agreed in all honestly. But time between chapters and how the story gets around that is, in fact, important. Some readers can't just stop time in their minds and hearts until next chapter is released, something bad happens and we remain with a bad feeling until next chapter appear or things get resolved, the longer that takes, the deeper those feelings will root.
Ah I see. So that's why it was a bit difficult for you. The benefits of that is that you get to think more about it but the bad thing is that you're causing yourself more stress than necessary. Even after I read a chapter, I still think about it for a very long time but I still try to make sure that I stop the time so that I won't go crazy and let those emotions root because then it won't let me judge the actual events in the story as well as I potentially could.

Perhaps when you finish reading a chapter, go find fanfics or something to let it off your mind and relax a bit?
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:49   Link #206
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Weaknesses as in some sort of flaw you can exploit, that they can't get rid of? Or just something they're not completely perfect at? Villains not being heroes doesn't mean they don't follow the same rules as most characters in fiction. And no, I don't think this is an RPG; it's a story element that's come up a lot in fiction.

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Though I don't see any reason for Curren to have some sort of special origin to be competent. She could just be competent, and use that competence to live her life as an infected.
...okay then.

And Sunder, really, I don't like Force either, but if you want gratuitous fanservice, that's ViVid's sin.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:55   Link #207
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Weaknesses as in some sort of flaw you can exploit, that they can't get rid of? Or just something they're not completely perfect at? Villains not being heroes doesn't mean they don't follow the same rules as most characters in fiction. And no, I don't think this is an RPG; it's a story element that's come up a lot in fiction.
In many stories the enemy is seemingly invincible in the first part, with a weakness being discovered as the story progresses. I see no reason why Force can't follow this method of storytelling.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:58   Link #208
Akiyoshi
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Now I definitely think there would be a benefit for you to reread it all in one go. You will perhaps find it different if you do.
I'm too scared to read Ch. 7 again, but i will consider it.

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Examples? Yeah just go read more variety and you will find there are series that the development are slow and for a reason. First thought that comes to mind was 07 Ghost, Ares, and Saint Seiya. I remember there were others too but can't seem to remember them all since I have read so many over time.
Saint Seiya? Really? it's one of the simpliest stories i've readed(and i greatly enjoyed it, Phoenix Ikki one of my childhood heroes but maybe you're refering to lost Canvas i guess). I will take note of your other examples. I've readed many action manga and even if some characters take long time to be fleshed out(like Saten from Needless) there are others fleshing out more quickly that keeps the reader entertained(Eve, The Pretty Girl Squad, Arca Schild, Cruz/Yamada, Disc, etc...).

Maybe it's because it's full of popular characters or the fact Tsuzuki wants to depict mor ethe conflict than the pÓrticipants but all new characters had a very slow developement(Tohma just spent an entire year being a living McGuffin) and the old cast is used as punching bags for the Hucks. The weapons and the Eclipse virus are the only things with constant attention in Force at this point.

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Lol about Vivid. I agree. I still don't think Force is that bad. Just a good simple question, besides the flaws that you think, are you still enjoying Force?
I don't know, i think i enjoy certain parts(Tohma scaring the crap out of Fortis and Stella xD) but i can't enjoy the story as a whole, it's impossible to me with the out-of-place prescence of the old cast.
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Old 2011-09-22, 16:59   Link #209
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They DID have the 'shoot 'em in the head' weakness shown recently, I guess. But you can understand my doubts as to whether anyone in Section Six would ever take advantage of that.
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Old 2011-09-22, 17:02   Link #210
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So once again, this is just a giant ouroboros, the same discussion repeating itself again and again, while we try to fight the pattern until we're swallowed up.

No, I mean, uh, we can has spoiler in eight day?

Quote:
Though I don't see any reason for Curren to have some sort of special origin to be competent. She could just be competent, and use that competence to live her life as an infected.
I support this. We've had plenty of outliers who owe a great deal to the circumstances of their heritage or inheritance, why not have those who have no particularly magical origin?
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Old 2011-09-22, 17:07   Link #211
Keroko
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I don't know, i think i enjoy certain parts(Tohma scaring the crap out of Fortis and Stella xD) but i can't enjoy the story as a whole, it's impossible to me with the out-of-place prescence of the old cast.
Now this I can agree with. They introduced an entire new cast in StrikerS, expanded on them in SSX and then... kept using the old cast. The arm of marketing is mighty indeed.

Still doesn't stop me from enjoying Force though.

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They DID have the 'shoot 'em in the head' weakness shown recently, I guess. But you can understand my doubts as to whether anyone in Section Six would ever take advantage of that.
Agreed. Their counter is still a work in progress. A work in progress that might actually get some visible result now that they have Thoma.
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Old 2011-09-22, 17:12   Link #212
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It probably would have been fine (or at least slightly better) if they were actually new to Touma, but sadly, that didn't happen.
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Old 2011-09-22, 17:12   Link #213
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I'm too scared to read Ch. 7 again, but i will consider it.



Saint Seiya? Really? it's one of the simpliest stories i've readed(and i greatly enjoyed it, Phoenix Ikki one of my childhood heroes but maybe you're refering to lost Canvas i guess). I will take note of your other examples. I've readed many action manga and even if some characters take long time to be fleshed out(like Saten from Needless) there are others fleshing out more quickly that keeps the reader entertained(Eve, The Pretty Girl Squad, Arca Schild, Cruz/Yamada, Disc, etc...).

Maybe it's because it's full of popular characters or the fact Tsuzuki wants to depict mor ethe conflict than the pÓrticipants but all new characters had a very slow developement(Tohma just spent an entire year being a living McGuffin) and the old cast is used as punching bags for the Hucks. The weapons and the Eclipse virus are the only things with constant attention in Force at this point.



I don't know, i think i enjoy certain parts(Tohma scaring the crap out of Fortis and Stella xD) but i can't enjoy the story as a whole, it's impossible to me with the out-of-place prescence of the old cast.
Hehe chapter 7? Love hate that chapter as well. Also made me rage about Cypha. And yes I meant Lost Canvas when I said Saint Seiya.

The way I feel and think Tsuzuki is going for is that he was trying to simply introduce new characters, the problems, the encounters, and then character development. It's a bit different than what you normally see in other series so it does kind of come across as "odd" if that's the right word to describe it as it does also explain how the old cast seems somewhat out of place. He's trying something new (although this type of development... I'm sure I seen in other series but don't remember which one)? Let see how he goes on with the development now that the encounter between Section Six and the Hucks is over.
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Old 2011-09-22, 17:17   Link #214
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Now this I can agree with. They introduced an entire new cast in StrikerS, expanded on them in SSX and then... kept using the old cast. The arm of marketing is mighty indeed.

Still doesn't stop me from enjoying Force though.

Agreed. Their counter is still a work in progress. A work in progress that might actually get some visible result now that they have Thoma.
Well it is Nanoha haha. She and the old cast won't be going away any time soon. Either way yes just like you, I'm still enjoying it.

What I do hope is that they do find a way to make the old cast fit back into the story right now (which at least to me from the most recent chapter starting to feel like) so that does make me feel happier and more satisfied than before.

Edit: Just to add, that's one thing I love and enjoy about Vivid. The old cast and the new cast just blends it well together. You have the old cast that you know and love and you have the new cast that you are learning more about them and also love. Not only that, you also have old ex-enemies that you love haha.
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Old 2011-09-22, 17:20   Link #215
Akiyoshi
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Until the chapter comes out that explains their background and motivation, and leaves you to stew on that for a month. Though again, the Hucks are not the same as the Wolkies, so the chances of their excuse being as sympathy-invoking is slim. It will most likely be designed to do the same thing we have been doing ourselves: Spark moral debates.
I wonder if Tsuzuki even posses the matiruty to write something like that and not kicking up the Force hatedom into new levels of wank.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You can't magically force the plot to go faster short of increasing the page count (and there's a whole lot of other problems that come along with that idea) Oh sure, you could trim a few pages here and there, but plot happens at a pace for a reason.
Of course i can't ...they have anti-magic you see?

Ok, bad pun is bad xDU

But magic isn't necessary just better skill at depicting scenes and distribute page-time i wonder why is this so difficult, Nanoha A's manga do it well, MOVIE 1st manga do it beautifully and even ViVid is better executed, it's not like Tsuzuki can't do it so, why he agreed in overstreching things so damn long? Where is the puspouse behind this?

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Now, all this has left me very curious on your stance, Aki. What would you have done differently in writing the story?
Fleshing a bit more the dynamic between the Tohma trio(too small developement for a part of the story with some good comedy-adventure potential), leaving Signum's defeat to a much more deserving opponent(or make Cypha a less "bitchy" villain i guess) or at least to someone actually important(like Curren, for example), and letting her close poeple to at least give a damn about her being near-killed. Spending no more than three chapters on the "Assault to the Huckship" part, no more than four on the "Tohma VS Nanoha" battle(letting Deville and Fate show more of their awesomeness ...and Cypha being a more effective villain and, orf course, let Nanoha BE Nanoha and fight Tohma like the sky expert we know and love). Showing Subaru actually punching someone in the face, Having rein helping Hayate and the Heimdall being justified as a threat by Curren dramatically destroying the thing whit some noticeable effort.

In fact i would like to rewrote the fourth season entirely(i already wrote some crazy ideas about that on TV Tropes xD), erasing the Anti-Magic and replacing it with an order of Divine Warriors following the reincarnation of a Deity(their understanding of "true magic" being the reason they can trounce the more technologically dependant TSAB mages, pushing our heroes in finding a more complete understanding of the mystical origin of magic allowign themselves to reach a new stage of power).
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Old 2011-09-22, 18:46   Link #216
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I wonder if Tsuzuki even posses the matiruty to write something like that and not kicking up the Force hatedom into new levels of wank.
When not kicked up is controversial, moreover if kicked up?

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
But magic isn't necessary just better skill at depicting scenes and distribute page-time i wonder why is this so difficult, Nanoha A's manga do it well, MOVIE 1st manga do it beautifully and even ViVid is better executed, it's not like Tsuzuki can't do it so, why he agreed in overstreching things so damn long? Where is the puspouse behind this?
Probably not. Maybe he ran out of ideas so much that he becomes stressed until like this...

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In fact i would like to rewrote the fourth season entirely(i already wrote some crazy ideas about that on TV Tropes xD), erasing the Anti-Magic and replacing it with an order of Divine Warriors following the reincarnation of a Deity(their understanding of "true magic" being the reason they can trounce the more technologically dependant TSAB mages, pushing our heroes in finding a more complete understanding of the mystical origin of magic allowign themselves to reach a new stage of power).
This! Maybe this one can be the best solution.
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Old 2011-09-22, 18:48   Link #217
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http://i.imgur.com/9CMxA.jpg

Without html typos.
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Old 2011-09-23, 09:27   Link #218
Keroko
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I wonder if Tsuzuki even posses the matiruty to write something like that and not kicking up the Force hatedom into new levels of wank.
A lot of the Force hate is either based on pure opinion, I've found. Not much an author can do about that.

Besides, its the western fandom that does that hating, Force is doing quite well in Japan.

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But magic isn't necessary just better skill at depicting scenes and distribute page-time i wonder why is this so difficult, Nanoha A's manga do it well, MOVIE 1st manga do it beautifully and even ViVid is better executed, it's not like Tsuzuki can't do it so, why he agreed in overstreching things so damn long? Where is the puspouse behind this?
I'm still wondering where is "overstretching" comes from, I've seen the accusation been thrown around before but I haven't really seen it. It's really little different from any other manga I've read.

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Fleshing a bit more the dynamic between the Tohma trio (too small developement for a part of the story with some good comedy-adventure potential), leaving Signum's defeat to a much more deserving opponent(or make Cypha a less "bitchy" villain i guess) or at least to someone actually important(like Curren, for example), and letting her close poeple to at least give a damn about her being near-killed. Spending no more than three chapters on the "Assault to the Huckship" part, no more than four on the "Tohma VS Nanoha" battle(letting Deville and Fate show more of their awesomeness ...and Cypha being a more effective villain and, orf course, let Nanoha BE Nanoha and fight Tohma like the sky expert we know and love). Showing Subaru actually punching someone in the face, Having rein helping Hayate and the Heimdall being justified as a threat by Curren dramatically destroying the thing whit some noticeable effort.
So you'd delay the advancing of the plot to flesh out the characters. Already you're stumbling around StrikerS' pitfalls here. Signum's defeat is purely your opinion, so I'll leave that alone.

Saying "I'll spend no more than X chapters on Y" is easy... but what would you cut? What would you change?
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Old 2011-09-23, 09:36   Link #219
Akiyoshi
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A lot of the Force hate is either based on pure opinion, I've found. Not much an author can do about that.
I guess.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Besides, its the western fandom that does that hating, Force is doing quite well in Japan.
More like it's doing average, ViVid is still more popular.

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I'm still wondering where is "overstretching" comes from, I've seen the accusation been thrown around before but I haven't really seen it. It's really little different from any other manga I've read.
Wonder what mangas those could be xDU.

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So you'd delay the advancing of the plot to flesh out the characters. Already you're stumbling around StrikerS' pitfalls here. Signum's defeat is purely your opinion, so I'll leave that alone.
And i thank you for that xD. I'm not saying i will be able to do it better than StrikerS but at least i have some ideas, Tohma's basic character was poorly fleshed out before being deeply involved into all this eclipse infection mess and because of that we had a character we barely known as a living McGuffin for over a year. Tohma and his friends were never fully stablished as solid character which causes trouble when the story tried to show the change on lives we barely know and care for.

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Saying "I'll spend no more than X chapters on Y" is easy... but what would you cut? What would you change?
Pobably tons and tons of space wasted on overly-strechet motions and bad battle-pacing, i just need to take MOVIE 1st manga or ViVid as good examples, that's why i'm confused, Force is fairly different from other Tsuzuki works that worked just fine, why he's altering his own formula?
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Old 2011-09-23, 11:26   Link #220
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I actually heard from someone on TV Tropes that some japanese fans find the story sort of meh so far. I could go find the post where he said it.
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