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Old 2011-09-24, 00:11   Link #41
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Agreed. Sho was genuinely being a callous jerk there. First time I've seen him like that.
How, exactly, was he being a callous jerk? Do tell.
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Old 2011-09-24, 00:24   Link #42
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How, exactly, was he being a callous jerk? Do tell.
I think he was definitely in the wrong and being a jerk during the first train ride. She was asking if he was better and all he could focus on was her giving away the diary. He called her a fool for giving it away even though she gave it away because she was sincerely worried about his life. "A little kidnapping" he called it. She gave away her most important possession for him and he wasn't the least bit thankful or considerate. He was too focused on her losing it because of it Himari which is somewhat understandable but still not excusable.
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Old 2011-09-24, 00:47   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I think he was definitely in the wrong and being a jerk during the first train ride. She was asking if he was better and all he could focus on was her giving away the diary. He called her a fool for giving it away even though she gave it away because she was sincerely worried about his life. "A little kidnapping" he called it. She gave away her most important possession for him and he wasn't the least bit thankful or considerate. He was too focused on her losing it because of it Himari which is somewhat understandable but still not excusable.
After the ride she took him on the last few episodes, that was the least she could have done for him. I suppose he could have been nicer about it, but frankly, she had it coming.

I realize there's a humongous gender double-standard when it comes to pointless violence in anime and that's probably never going to change, but to say that he "deserved" it... Well, if it wasn't such a cartoonishly silly scene to begin with it would be worth pointing out how wrong that seems.
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Old 2011-09-24, 06:42   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
How, exactly, was he being a callous jerk? Do tell.
Slick_rick pretty much covered it.


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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
After the ride she took him on the last few episodes, that was the least she could have done for him.
But that's the thing: He saw it as a negative, not as the "least she could have done for him". Him seeing it as a negative, and even verbally attacking her over it, showed a startling lack of empathy and basic understanding on Sho's part. I don't know if even Kanba would have been as harsh towards Ringo as what Sho was in that scene.


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I suppose he could have been nicer about it, but frankly, she had it coming.
She perhaps deserved some sort of "bad karma effects" for the way she's been treating Sho through much of the anime thus far, but this was worst possible way for it to come about, imo.

When a person with a tendency to mistreat others does something caring and considerate of others for a change, it's likely counterproductive to attack the person for "doing something caring/considerate" in order to punish them for "the tendency to mistreat others". That just sends at best a very mixed message, or at worst a horrible message period.


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Well, if it wasn't such a cartoonishly silly scene to begin with it would be worth pointing out how wrong that seems.
Since it was cartoonishly silly, I don't think that Sho actually had all those physical attacks done to him.

In reality, I think he probably took one slap across the face, and that much, frankly, he'd probably get in real life if he talked to most girls like he talked to Ringo there. Spoonroo is right there, I think.


Don't get me wrong - This doesn't change how I perceive Sho - Just that this was an unusually bad moment for him. If something equivalent to it never happens again, I'll honestly consider it an OoC moment.
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Old 2011-09-24, 08:34   Link #45
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I didn't like the hitting scene because I felt the animation of it was extremely exaggerated (and usually I can take scenes like that in anime). Especially just watching the RAW the scene was very upsetting to me.

But I felt a little better after watching the scene subbed. Ignorning how the scene was animated for the first time I think Ringo was right to be angry at Shouma. It's not just that he didn't appreciate what Ringo did to him, but he should be concerned about his own safety too. She was worried sick about him.


In the second scene though Shouma definitely did not deserve that (he was even trying to apologize to Ringo which was really sweet of him). But I guess I can let it slide because Ringo realized her feelings for Shouma and I guess it was a blow to her. Everything she thought was true in her life turns out to not be true at all.


We are watching as outsiders but for Ringo for such a long time she was dedicated to marrying Tabuki. She was in love with Tabuki because that is how it was supposed to be. She had to become her sister. But then Shouma comes around and she isn't supposed to be in love with him...she just is. And he even tells her, you can just be you! This is a major change for her.
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Old 2011-09-24, 10:28   Link #46
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Silly argument, when you consider that Ringo made Shou strip so a frog could give birth on him, made him move her belongings twice, forced him to crawl under a house with her, drugged him so she could rape his teacher and would be dead if it weren't for him. I guess in the world of anime that means a little curtness on his part merits a severe beating and she merits a gentle kiss of the cheek.
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Old 2011-09-24, 10:49   Link #47
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Well I think the difference is we have to realize it is a cartoon and those type of scenes are exaggerated on purpose and not to be taken literally. But let's just say Ringo's feelings behind that scene were not wrong.

I do think Ringo was wrong in all those other scenes in how she treated Shouma. But in this one case her feelings were right.

And Shouma did tell Ringo off during the attempted rape scene (which he was definitely in the right about).
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Old 2011-09-24, 14:08   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Silly argument, when you consider that Ringo made Shou strip so a frog could give birth on him, made him move her belongings twice, forced him to crawl under a house with her, drugged him so she could rape his teacher and would be dead if it weren't for him. I guess in the world of anime that means a little curtness on his part merits a severe beating and she merits a gentle kiss of the cheek.
While I agree that Ringo certainly has some serious karmic debt built up, it doesn't change the fact that she deserves to be punished for those actions, and not for the good action of trying to protect Shouma.

Sort of reminds me of a side story from a certain book I read once. An infamous smuggler sneaks a ship full of onions past a blockade to a Lord trapped in a siege, getting him enough supplies to allow him to win.

After the siege is done, the Lord chops off the fingers of the smuggler as punishment for his years of lawbreaking, and then raises him to knight as a reward for his delivery of onions.

Now imagine if the Lord had instead decided not to punish the smuggler for his smuggling years, but instead punished him for the onion delivery?

From a karmic perspective, yes Ringo deserved it. But from the perspective of the specific event in question, she most definitely did not.
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Old 2011-09-24, 14:48   Link #49
Guardian Enzo
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Davos and Stannis, eh? Interesting story, but not completely relevant here IMHO. I don't exactly see a few curt words as equivalent exchange for all of the transgressions Ringo committed against him. All things being equal, she should have been more than happy to call it even, never mind use him as a piñata.

Besides - curried cabbage does not equal onions! And I think that story was included to illustrate was an inflexible, pious SOB Stannis is. Iron, not steel - break before he bends...
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Old 2011-09-24, 16:27   Link #50
ele-ene-ene
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Silly argument, when you consider that Ringo made Shou strip so a frog could give birth on him, made him move her belongings twice, forced him to crawl under a house with her, drugged him so she could rape his teacher and would be dead if it weren't for him. I guess in the world of anime that means a little curtness on his part merits a severe beating and she merits a gentle kiss of the cheek.
Ok, but… in Ringo's twisted way of thinking, accept her love feelings for Shoma implies leave definitely crumble to her family. The beating expresses the intensity of Ringo's opposite feelings: love vs family
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Old 2011-09-24, 17:58   Link #51
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I think we're all forgetting that Shouma has a pretty low self-esteem, due to the incident in his past. For him, Himari is not only more important than himself because she's his sister, but also because he sees himself as..... well, as trash really. This is why Ringo giving up the diary (which is necessary to save Himari) for his sake affected him so much, so much that he acted quite out of character.

Ringo is probably the first person who cares about Shouma for who he is, something he had always thought impossible until now, as he believes himself damaged and deserving of punishment. Ringo shattered that wall, and Shouma is as scared about it as Ringo herself, if not much more.

All in all, his attitude towards Ringo was understandable. It doesn't mean he wasn't wrong; he was. But I can understand why he did it.
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Old 2011-09-24, 18:17   Link #52
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Well I am definitely hoping Ringo and Shouma's story is going to be about them helping each other.

Shouma helping Ringo realize it is alright for her to be her and not her sister. And I am hoping Ringo will help Shouma get over whatever it is that is buried inside him. I really like that type of narrative so I would love if the show goes in that direction.
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Old 2011-09-24, 18:43   Link #53
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I may be wrong, but I get the sense that Himari herself appreciates Shouma very much for who he is. I think she loves him more than his brother, and may even love him more than a sister should.
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Old 2011-09-24, 18:45   Link #54
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Ringo used to know exactly what her purpose in life was. For the last ten years, she's been absolutely certain that she was meant to replace Momoka, and that following the diary was the way to do it. She'd managed to convince herself that everything was going according to plan, and that she was only a few steps away from fulfilling her destiny.

Then she meets the Takakuras, and everything starts going wrong. Shoma keeps getting in the way of her plans (or, at least, that's how she sees it.) He tries to get her to hand over her precious diary -- the biggest link she has to Momoka, and the key to achieving her destiny. Then she finds out that, just like her, he's doing everything for love of his family. He starts forcing her to question her sense of purpose: Does she really love Tamaki, or is she just using to create her perfect family? Is it really her destiny to become Momoka, or is she fooling herself? It's obvious that this strikes a nerve with Ringo. These doubts have probably crossed her mind before, but she was never willing to face them.

Finally, Shoma is placed in danger because of her -- twice. First, he's injured protecting her; then he's held hostage in order to make her give up the diary. Ringo is already starting to doubt herself, and she now realizes how much Shoma has sacrificed himself for her sake and the sake of others. So she gives up her diary -- her future, the sole reason for her existence -- in order to protect him. This is probably the bravest thing she's ever done; remember, Ringo really has no sense of her own identity outside of being Momoka's replacement. In a very real sense, she's giving up her self.

The problem, of course, is that the whole reason Shoma is able to be so selfless is that he feels he has no right to exist. Since the first episode, we've been hearing him talk about how he and Kanba have no future and will never amount to anything. He thinks they committed a terrible sin just by being born. From his point of view, Ringo just gave up the last chance to save Himari -- pure, innocent Himari, who's suffering as a result of her brothers' sin -- in order to preserve his worthless life. Ringo doesn't understand this, even though it's remarkably similar to her own situation -- both she and Shoma are living for the sake of someone else. Ringo assumes that, since Himari's life is all he cares about, he won't want anything to do with her anymore. Effectively, Shoma's just told her that she sacrificed her life's purpose for nothing. So she throws herself back into her pursuit of Tamaki, even though she almost certainly realizes that it's futile.

But... that's not quite all of it. Shoma still worries about her, even though she no longer has any relation to his goal of saving Himari. He tells her that she's herself -- that she, as a person, still has value independent of her relationship to Momoka. Presumably, Ringo has never heard this from anyone before, or at least not in a way that she could believe. Her own mother couldn't love her and her family fell apart because she wasn't as good as Momoka; now Shoma seems to be suggesting that it doesn't matter. That's why she can't stop thinking about him, and why she hesitates when she finally has the chance to be with Tamaki. Ringo is ashamed and angry at herself -- by developing feelings for Shoma, she's betraying her duty to Momoka. She's developing an identity of her own, and it scares her. That's why she keeps flying off the handle and raging at Shoma -- she's scared of the things he makes her feel.

Again, Shoma is in the same position as Ringo. He believes that he should never have been born, and that he has no right to have a life or desires of his own. He wants to devote himself completely to saving Himari, because he sees her as pure and innocent, unlike his worthless self. We're already starting to see cracks in his resolve, however. Unlike Kanba, he seems to feel real moral qualms about the shady things he has to do in search of the Penguidrum, and he also seems to be developing feelings for Ringo. (Feelings which will, no doubt, be complicated by the revelation that her sister's death was connected to his and Kanba's "sin.") I think that just as he's starting to convince Ringo that her life has value outside of her destiny, she may end up convincing him that his has value in spite of his sin.

EDIT: So, yeah... everything Kazu-Kun just said, but more wordy.
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Old 2011-09-24, 18:51   Link #55
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I may be wrong, but I get the sense that Himari herself appreciates Shouma very much for who he is. I think she loves him more than his brother, and may even love him more than a sister should.
I definitely don't get this. I feel the Takakura family is tight knit in general and they all care about each other. Shouma and Kanba also share this burden about their past together (although it's possible they deal with it differently).

But I think Shouma really needs acceptance outside his family and that is where Ringo comes in.
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Old 2011-09-24, 19:00   Link #56
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I may be wrong, but I get the sense that Himari herself appreciates Shouma very much for who he is. I think she loves him more than his brother, and may even love him more than a sister should.
As Kirarakim said, we're talking about acceptance outside the family bonds.

EDIT: DSPaul, great post. Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at.

EDIT2: just removing something that might be too spoilerific right now.
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Old 2011-09-25, 15:57   Link #57
ele-ene-ene
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Originally Posted by DSPaul View Post
Ringo used to know exactly what her purpose in life was. For the last ten years, she's been absolutely certain that she was meant to replace Momoka, and that following the diary was the way to do it.
How Ringo found her purpose in life? In a hallucination, when she was 4 years old. And her absolute certainty is powered by the sayings of Tabuki about the meaning of destiny and how special Momoka was. Isn't it odd?

Spoiler for ringo, tabuki and the frogs:
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Old 2011-09-25, 16:48   Link #58
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How Ringo found her purpose in life? In a hallucination, when she was 4 years old. And her absolute certainty is powered by the sayings of Tabuki about the meaning of destiny and how special Momoka was. Isn't it odd?

Spoiler for ringo, tabuki and the frogs:
Spoiler for :
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Old 2011-09-27, 09:23   Link #59
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Yes, Momoka was 6. But I don't think it's just a normal diary. I mean, even Masako and someone else besides the Takakura brothers are looking for it. The damn thing has to be a magical item of some sort.
Speaking of the diary possibly being a magical item. I always wondered if Ringo's state of mind was affected by the diary, like it was controlling her or making her crazy/delusional - she seems to be calming down lately. Also more regular emotions - crying and empathetic - rather than just yelling all the time - I also remember her hesitating about putting the lady frog on her face - the old Ringo I don't think would've given it a second thought. Hmm. I wonder if she would've gone all the way with Tabuki if she still had the diary.

That would certainly explain why the damn thing is so important. It has to be able to do something of that magnitude if so many people want/need it.
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Old 2011-09-27, 09:57   Link #60
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Posted in Anime Penguins thread:

Speaking of the diary possibly being a magical item. I always wondered if Ringo's state of mind was affected by the diary, like it was controlling her or making her crazy/delusional - she seems to be calming down lately. Also more regular emotions - crying and empathetic - rather than just yelling all the time - I also remember her hesitating about putting the lady frog on her face - the old Ringo I don't think would've given it a second thought. Hmm. I wonder if she would've gone all the way with Tabuki if she still had the diary.

That would certainly explain why the damn thing is so important. It has to be able to do something of that magnitude if so many people want/need it.
So you means the diary is something similar to the rings in LoTR? Exaggerate people's madness or some sort?

I actually do not think so... but agree that the diary could hold some secrets to it. Because a diary of (6 years old wasn't it?) kid talking about "first night" and such are a little bit extreme
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