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Old 2011-09-24, 23:37   Link #1521
LoveMeKags
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You know, I wrote this a while back... when I was upset that AruSherri fans kept irritating me (no one here on the board but on YT) about my AruRan videos (when did we no longer become a free country?) and decided to pull a bunch of shit which got me copyrighted by YouTube. Someone wrote a small amount of information, and I think it was "Westlo" in response to BleachOD about his words towards the SnT movie (and I agree with a lot of irritations towards it too). Westlo actually bashed Ranka's character and I felt like replying.

Keep in mind that this is a bit old but some of it still holds context. And, also, I was mad at the time, so if it seems like I'm bashing AruSherri, don't take offense.

Spoiler for TV series vs. movies:


And, if you really thing about it, Macross Frontier has a lot of iconic scenes that lead me to believe that the TV series was meant to mirror SDF-1 and DYRL's ending with Hikaru/Misa by putting Alto/Ranka in due to the fact that most AruRan scenes were similar to that of Hikaru/Misa from SDF-1. In the movies, Kawamori breaks the cycle of the dynamic trio from SDF-1 by having a Hikaru/Minmei ending with Alto/Sheryl, thus ending ending his obsession with Minmei. But that's only if you look at the fact that Alto and Sheryl get 90% more Hikaru/Misa scenes in the movies than they ever did in the series.
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Old 2011-09-25, 03:45   Link #1522
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Hey, LMK. You lost. Your side lost. SxA is canon.

Get over it.

And I say that as somebody who personally hates that bolded expression.
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Old 2011-09-25, 03:54   Link #1523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags
She makes it very clear that she wants more out of life: marriage, children, and to live life to the fullest.
The only times when you present direct assertions like this is when you follow it up with evidence/examples in the show. So far, you have done nothing of the sort.

This is a valid example:

"I started out singing to live, but now I live to sing." -- Sheryl, Sayonara no Tsubasa

These personal opinions from you:

Quote:
"Who's to say that in the future, Sheryl might retire and decide to settle down?
Quote:
And I just don't see someone doing one thing their whole life
Quote:
There are many other things she want that eventually must come first."
are not acceptable.

As a piece of advice, if you want people to regard your posts seriously, then make the time to plan out your words wisely, instead of launching into ten thousand paragraphs in the next two posts defending/explaining your reasoning and spiraling into a vortex of verbal diarrhea. Perhaps then you'll find some fruit from these discussions, likewise for others as well.

Last edited by cheesie; 2011-09-25 at 04:26. Reason: Found the line Yot-chan was referencing.
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Old 2011-09-25, 05:51   Link #1524
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
You totally don't get my meaning at all.
No, I think we all understand what you are trying to say. Our point is that:
it's just your OPINION about what Sheryl might want in the future.
i.e. it's really NOT RELEVANT to what's happened in any of the MF versions so far.
=====

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
And also, I don't see where you get canon because Kawamori has approved neither series nor movies canon as of yet.

Tell me WHERE, in an interview, you caught Kawamori saying the movie ending was canon. Because I never saw any interview that stated such. So, until furthermore, both versions (movie and series) are non-canon. Which, that being stated, makes the series fair-game to say Ranka won or Sheryl won.
Actually, once everyone sees THE ENTIRE MOVIE, i.e. every scene IN CONTEXT, everyone should understand why the canon/non-canon debate doesn't really matter anymore.

Could you just give us a month of peace whilst we wait for the BD/DVD to come out?

PLEASE?

Polish up your arguments if you must, but please, please, please give it a rest until the end of next month.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-09-25 at 06:26.
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Old 2011-09-25, 07:58   Link #1525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
(when did we no longer become a free country?)
This actually made me LOL. Thanks, LMK.
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Old 2011-09-25, 10:15   Link #1526
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I'm not quite sure where you're taking this line of reasoning, LMK, but I feel that I need to make a few points.

First, vocal pathology aside, people don't ever really "stop" singing. It's a fundamental method of communication. You can no more give it up than you could give up on talking. You do it even when you so much as unconciously hum a tune.

Age has nothing to do with it.

Fame has to do with the size of the audience that you can reach, not your ability to reach them. Those girls from episode 18 may not have remembered who Sheryl was, but Alto certainly did. He both told and showed her how Sheryl's songs had inspired him. Conversely, Ranka had virtually all of Frontier's eyes on her, but as she pointed out to Brera in episode 21: her songs could never reach the one person whom she wanted them to reach.

This is an important theme in the show. Music is a force that connects us all together (kind of like the fold, I suppose). It doesn't matter what species you are. It doesn't matter whether you're in front of millions of screaming fans during a parade thrown in your honor, or if you're huddled in a shelter bathed by the spotlight of the emergency lighting, praying for everyone's survival. Music happens when you reach out with your heart.
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Old 2011-09-25, 10:55   Link #1527
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post


Hey, LMK. You lost. Your side lost. SxA is canon.

Get over it.

And I say that as somebody who personally hates that bolded expression.
Look, LoveMeKags...I hate Magnus...

But, in this case, he's right; you're wrong. Get over it.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-09-25 at 13:04. Reason: Yes, we know. But you don't have to dig yourself in deeper by expanding upon your remarks.
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:01   Link #1528
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
You totally don't get my meaning at all.
What did I say about your opinion differing from everyone else? Now that its evident for the trillionth time, stop PMing me with your TLDRs. Not exactly a smart way to show your affection for me.

We get you perfectly, but you don't get us. Not the other way around.

You kept on pushing a ticket base on limited information and hearsay, then you expect us to buy your argument without reservations. Thats just scenario I.

Scenario II is where you taken snippets of information while ignoring rest of the evidence, which you have aptly demonstrated. It also doesn't help when you are repeating both scenarios with alarming frequency.

No my little lady, it doesn't work out that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Not only that, but honestly, could you really see Sheryl continuing to sing till she's 90... I mean, would you honestly want her to do that? That'd be asking too much of someone that old
Would you like to run if you were crippled? Would you like to see if you were blind? Probably.

But can you? No.

That hard to comprehend?

And Sheryl sang despite meeting the face of death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I don't see where you get canon because Kawamori has approved neither series nor movies canon as of yet.
Official materials state or hint otherwise.

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Last edited by Tak; 2011-09-25 at 12:00.
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:28   Link #1529
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I really can't fathom this whole 'you can't expect Sheryl to stick to singing for a long time' bit. I mean, huh? If more than anything, the series and movies depict how music plays too much a part in her life, even in the face of death. So really, it's a stupid argument in my honest opinion.

And to keep this relevant...

A/S is love.
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Old 2011-09-25, 11:34   Link #1530
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Originally Posted by raile View Post
I really can't fathom this whole 'you can't expect Sheryl to stick to singing for a long time' bit. I mean, huh? If more than anything, the series and movies depict how music plays too much a part in her life, even in the face of death. So really, it's a stupid argument in my honest opinion.
Totally.
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Old 2011-09-25, 13:07   Link #1531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Wasn't it strongly indicated that Sheryl was lying in an attempt to piss Alto off and drive him away when she said that stuff about having already accomplished everything she wanted in terms of singing?
Oh, almost certainly. She seemed to genuinely care about Alto's well-being, and preventing him from growing attached to her before what she was sure was going to happen.


Quote:
I can see Sheryl writing some new songs after she decided to do those charity concerts for the people of Frontier. Yousei gives the impression of being something new. Granted Northern Cross doesn't really give this impression so much.
It's possible, and, like I said, I'm certainly willing to accept it when evidence is presented (hell, where'd the title for Wings of Goodbye come from again? Oh, right, a new song.). It just don't see the distinction as "a song written before but used here because it fits the drama of the scene" or "a song written because of Sheryl's experiences on Frontier" mattering. That's a level of minutia about which I just can't care.


Quote:
I can see where you're coming from. Heck, I didn't really see the references to the Northern Star as referring to Ranka either. But the lines about what the Northern Star is doing seem to fit her so well. Otherwise why was the line about the Northern Star crying included? I can see the burning part, but why crying?
It's a common device to personify inanimate objects in art. The North Star crying could refer to the poetic idea of stardust, or of transferring feelings from Sheryl to the now-personified star. Maybe, as a link between the two of them (something both the titular character of the song and her sailor/pilot lover can look up and see) it also shares their feelings. Also remember that, like most songwriters, I think it'd be safe to say that not every single song Sheryl sings is 100% about her. Many probably have a persona she's taking on to tell a story. Some kernel of them is, of course, personal, but some of them would be considered just trying to tell a compelling story via song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
<snip; holy wall of text, Batman!>

And, if you really thing about it, Macross Frontier has a lot of iconic scenes that lead me to believe that the TV series was meant to mirror SDF-1 and DYRL's ending with Hikaru/Misa by putting Alto/Ranka in due to the fact that most AruRan scenes were similar to that of Hikaru/Misa from SDF-1. In the movies, Kawamori breaks the cycle of the dynamic trio from SDF-1 by having a Hikaru/Minmei ending with Alto/Sheryl, thus ending ending his obsession with Minmei. But that's only if you look at the fact that Alto and Sheryl get 90% more Hikaru/Misa scenes in the movies than they ever did in the series.
Precedent in earlier Macross series is irrelevant anyway, since Frontier makes it pretty clear that it's trying to subvert the expectations of those who get all the references. Especially the Ozma stuff, but it's all over.

On the other hand, the "Hikaru/Misa" scenes tend to be more mature in nature, more deep in their treatment of the relationship, than the Hikaru/Minmei ones. In some superficial ways, there are a few similar scenes (at Alto's house, the "kiss by demonstration") between Alto/Sheryl, and since Sheryl seems to be the less-immature Minmei, especially early on in the series, this is somewhat expected, but also, I think just another attempted subversion of expectations by the plot.

On the OTHER other hand (I have THREE!), the way the two of them, Ranka and Sheryl, develop, it's pretty clear that Ranka is on a Minmei trajectory, while Sheryl is on a Misa trajectory, as far as where they, as individual characters, are growing.

Which means, of course, that I'm perfectly okay with Alto/Sheryl being canon, because it's the more mature, sound, and, frankly, sweet relationship. Ranka can't seem to get out of her Moe mold, no matter how hard she tries. Sheryl seems to be a whole person on her own, and thus capable of being in a stable, fulfilling, healthy relationship.
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Old 2011-09-25, 13:18   Link #1532
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by Hollowgolem View Post
On the OTHER other hand (I have THREE!), the way the two of them, Ranka and Sheryl, develop, it's pretty clear that Ranka is on a Minmei trajectory, while Sheryl is on a Misa trajectory, as far as where they, as individual characters, are growing.
Well...that's the problem...neither Sheryl NOR Ranka is either Minmay or Misa...they're their own characters, especially by the end of the series.

DON'T FALL INTO LMK'S TRAP!!
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Old 2011-09-25, 16:09   Link #1533
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I prefer to think of Frontier as its own entity rather than a remake of SDF: Macross myself. If I wrote it that's what I would want, and what I'd be aiming for, rather than feel like I was uncreative and couldn't write an idol singer without writing Minmei again.

Not saying everyone would, but that's my feeling on it. If I were going to remake something, I'd remake it rather than rehash it under the pretense of a new story.
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Old 2011-09-25, 16:33   Link #1534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
What part of "this is an old post" did you miss? I'm over it. And if you hadn't noticed, I am melancholy for Frontier re-runs on my computer. So, quite honestly, I don't care if AxS is canon or shot into space and becomes satellites beaming in pictures of them, the fact remains that the series was a triangle ending with choice of girl and the MOVIES are AxS. And also, I don't see where you get canon because Kawamori has approved neither series nor movies canon as of yet.

Tell me WHERE, in an interview, you caught Kawamori saying the movie ending was canon. Because I never saw any interview that stated such. So, until furthermore, both versions (movie and series) are non-canon. Which, that being stated, makes the series fair-game to say Ranka won or Sheryl won.
Oh, gods, I am not believing that I get sucked into this again, but anybody who believes that the ending of the TV series was more inconclusive than the fact that they ended it before Alto could choose Sheryl has no idea whatsoever of storytelling. None. Zilch. Nada.

The only way that the story there would not end in SxA is if Alto crashed into Sheryl a few seconds after the "fade to black", killing her. The storytelling progression was as clear as pure water and it was screaming from the rooftops "Alto chose Sheryl!!!".
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Old 2011-09-25, 16:34   Link #1535
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Look, LoveMeKags...I hate Magnus...
Whoa. When did that happen?
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Old 2011-09-25, 18:55   Link #1536
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Well...that's the problem...neither Sheryl NOR Ranka is either Minmay or Misa...they're their own characters, especially by the end of the series.
Yeah, yeah, trend lines are only trend lines.

But it's a convenient shorthand to compare. They're certainly very different from the references I made, but there are also certain elements of the franchise that remain eerily similar.

Quote:
DON'T FALL INTO LMK'S TRAP!!
Advice taken.
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Old 2011-09-25, 21:30   Link #1537
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Whoa. When did that happen?
Hyperbole...pay it no mind.
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Old 2011-09-26, 00:36   Link #1538
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This Sheryl is jealous thing seems kind of overblown. Yeah, she's a bit jealous of Ranka on occasion, but look at the circumstances of some of these events. Normally if she got some tough competition it would encourage her to step up her game -but when Ranka's popularity really explodes, she's stuck in a hospital bed. Then her manager -whom she's known on a personal and professional level for years and is the closest thing she has to a parental figure- goes and starts working on a new project with Ranka without even letting her know about it, let alone asking her if she wants to participate. I think it actually speaks very well of Sheryl that she's able to show good will towards Ranka and not hate her after all that.
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Old 2011-09-26, 01:16   Link #1539
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Sheryl's decision to invite Alto to Gallia IV in Episode 11 had nothing to do with jealousy. She probably wasn't even thinking about Ranka's birthday present when she came up with the idea, seeing as how she came up with it rather spontaneously while still angry about the argument she'd had with Grace about whether she was well enough to go or not. Basically she realised she had a chance to offer Alto a chance to fulfill a lifelong dream and got really excited about that fact. Notice how much excitement creeps into her voice when she actually asks Alto to accompany her.

As for episode twelve, her anger likely had a lot to do with her feeling like she failed to do something she was supposed to do (and felt she should have been able to do it). Notice she seems pretty accepting of Ranka flying off with Alto when she's on the balcony later on.

Sheryl may be a bit jealous of Ranka at times but let's not overplay it.
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Old 2011-09-26, 01:56   Link #1540
LoveMeKags
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Sheryl's decision to invite Alto to Gallia IV in Episode 11 had nothing to do with jealousy. She probably wasn't even thinking about Ranka's birthday present when she came up with the idea, seeing as how she came up with it rather spontaneously while still angry about the argument she'd had with Grace about whether she was well enough to go or not. Basically she realised she had a chance to offer Alto a chance to fulfill a lifelong dream and got really excited about that fact. Notice how much excitement creeps into her voice when she actually asks Alto to accompany her.

As for episode twelve, her anger likely had a lot to do with her feeling like she failed to do something she was supposed to do (and felt she should have been able to do it). Notice she seems pretty accepting of Ranka flying off with Alto when she's on the balcony later on.

Sheryl may be a bit jealous of Ranka at times but let's not overplay it.
Sorry, I mistyped the episode I was meaning towards. It's Ep.12 that I meant. When they'd already landed on Galia 4. Sorry about the typo.

I have doubts that it's about her feeling angry at "failing to do something" or being "accepting" of Ranka flying off with Alto. Two scenes overlap in two different times:
In Ep.12, Ranka appears singing Seikan Hikou and thus saves them from the rebel Zentradi. Grace comments on Ranka's strength and willpower, something Sheryl showed in Ep.11 and the beginning of Ep.12 but eventually stopped altogether. Sheryl's face is shown in agony because Ranka arrived and saved Alto on her own.
In Ep.15, a similar scene plays out. Sheryl is recovering from her illness and Grace is taking a blood sample. Sheryl sees a magazine cover of Ranka's fame and she gives that agonized face once more when Grace comments about Ranka's willpower again. At this point, it is safe to say that Sheryl feels overshadowed by Ranka, thus giving way to envy/jealousy.
And, actually, when you look back at that scene you call "accepting," it's more like Sheryl came to terms with her own failure to achieve what she set out to do for him rather than the concert she failed to perform (which is another reason why I say Sheryl might not perform music forever).
Ep.15 picks up where we actually left off with Ep.12's face of envy towards Ranka's fame and endurance and anger towards her "sudden" illness that has no explanation as of yet (not till Ep.18).

But, since you mentioned Ep.11, one thing always irritated me about Sheryl's nature and attitude in Ep.11 through 12: she never told anyone she was feeling sickly.
Granted, Grace was aware, but as her manager, that should be something she puts first. Early on in Ep.11, Ranka became concerned as well about Sheryl's illness but trusted her words enough because Ranka didn't really know Sheryl as well as Grace. But the fact remains that Sheryl had plenty of time before they landed to warn anyone that she wouldn't be able to perform right away, yet she failed to do so.
So when you look back at that, when they arrived on Galia 4, Sheryl is the one who put them all in a tight spot, even Alto. Whereas, bias to one's belief, Ranka had to get Alto out of that hole, thus is part of why she encouraged Luca (who had the fold pack) and Michael (her designated driver) to take her to Galia 4. Concern for Alto and Sheryl led her to that point. Once there, Ranka earned the rights to fly with Alto in the sky, as she pulled them both out of the hole Sheryl put them in. And, thus, Sheryl comes to terms with the reality Ranka earned her gift to Alto (after all, Alto never got Ranka's gift).
Now just imagine had Sheryl stated her illness BEFORE they arrived: perhaps a strategy could've been made. But no, let's ignore it... it'll go away in the 5 minute landing time.

In Ep.15, Sheryl wasn't aware that Grace had betrayed her at all. Actually, they acted the same as usual. But later, in the lobby together, it was obvious by Sheryl's face towards Alto and Ranka's communication as well as Ranka's performance on the screen that Sheryl was rather envious of Ranka's attachment to Alto and her fame. It doesn't have to turn to rivalry, but one can feel overshadowed or forgotten, and it happens to all of us at one point in life. In this case, it happened to Sheryl, who felt like a third wheel to Alto and Ranka's connection, which she didn't want to be (as she was falling in love with Alto and was friends with Ranka), so she decided to be noticed by singing where Ranka left off in What 'bout my Star?
But, I will say, if Sheryl really wants to be recognized by Alto in a romantic way, she has to drop the "seductive" acts because Alto seems really uncomfortable with it even into this late in the series.

In Ep.15, Sheryl is aware that she's sick but doesn't know the illness. Give the fact that Grace hasn't told her a thing (zip) about her illness or possibility of cure or getting well soon. So she's left to think about the hardest part of the dynamic: "what if I die?" And, that being on the mind deeply before it settles in upon Ep.18, Sheryl has to truly contemplate what she can do for Alto and Ranka.
But, if it's any constellation (though both girls are unaware of this), in Ep.21, when Alto speaks fondly of his mother, it became clear to viewers that he would think twice before entering a relationship with someone who would die, thus adding salt to the wound that never fully closed.
Back to Ep.15, Sheryl still had confidence in herself and slight belief that her illness was just a flu bug; and so she performed. But this confidence was crushed by Ep.18's blow and Ep.19 where Yasaburou told Sheryl of Alto's mother. That ended her hopes for ever owning his heart if he knew of her illness. That didn't mean she was selfish, for her unexcited face on the school roof in Ep.20 showed that she was pushing Ranka onto Alto.
"It's a great concert."
"I've already decided, I won't sing anymore. Sheryl Nome is no more."
Her context already gave way to the fact she was pushing Alto to Ranka little by little by closing off her heart to him. But Sheryl allowed pity to come onto herself when Alto decided to encourage her and later stay with her in Ep.22. The one thing Sheryl didn't want, she got... just how is love built off that?

That aside, I once again hold the argument that Sheryl didn't know of Grace's betrayal till sometime in Ep.16 through 18. I don't think she knew as early as Ep.15 because it didn't seem apparent so.
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