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Old 2011-09-27, 15:37   Link #16841
Ithekro
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The historical prediction would be recovery in two full two term Presidents...so we have another up to 6 years left on this problem (where it sort of auto corrects in the first year of that Presidents term. So sometime in 2017. The problems started showing around 2000.
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Old 2011-09-27, 16:12   Link #16842
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
If Greece really wants to leave how does the rest of the EU stops them? Military force?

Greece doesn't really need to leave the EU but it does need to drop the Euro. As long as it keeps the Euro, it will never be able to fix its problems.
Completely useless in the normal sense, because its obligations to its creditors would still be in Euro.
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Old 2011-09-27, 16:12   Link #16843
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
If Greece really wants to leave how does the rest of the EU stops them? Military force?

Greece doesn't really need to leave the EU but it does need to drop the Euro. As long as it keeps the Euro, it will never be able to fix its problems.
Yessu, I misexplained myself, there's no text to "kick out" from the EU, the greek government doesn't want to leave EU so right now aside a political changement they won't leave it.


Quote:
The historical prediction would be recovery in two full two term Presidents...so we have another up to 6 years left on this problem (where it sort of auto corrects in the first year of that Presidents term. So sometime in 2017. The problems started showing around 2000.
Hmmm, unlike Chile, Greece doesn't have any high exportations, selling its historical monuments, electrical society, transport society and everything is shooting to its own foot a bullet. Only the buyers of all those things (the price are really low) will gain from that, greece people have the bad habits of not paying what they should pay and corrumption is really present.

In short, by selling everything, the state will gain less money (on long time of course ...), won't be able to repay and will have to borrow even more ( and thanks to the notation agencies the more you are in shit, the more the interest are high, so that if you have the first foot in the water, you can be sure the whole body will follow).

Well, I'm not really a pro at that, the whole opposite, but that's how we are seeing things here.

... Holy it's too late, I can't even write in english properly tonight: I give up I hope it's understandable.
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Old 2011-09-27, 17:49   Link #16844
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
personally i thought that should have been the way to go form the start. The Ham-handed efforts at bailing out Greece probably cause more damage to investor/consumer confidence then letting Greece go into a orderly Bankruptcy.
The real problem is, how do you liquidate Greece? Sell off their people as slaves?
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Old 2011-09-27, 17:50   Link #16845
Vexx
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
A new study by the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonprofit research group that tracks employer-sponsored health insurance on a yearly basis, shows that the average annual premium for family coverage through an employer reached $15,073 in 2011, an increase of 9 percent over the previous year.
...
Many businesses cite the high cost of coverage as a factor in their decision not to hire, and health insurance has become increasingly unaffordable for more Americans. Over all, the cost of family coverage has about doubled since 2001, when premiums averaged $7,061, compared with a 34 percent gain in wages over the same period.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/bu...er=rss&emc=rss
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Old 2011-09-27, 18:49   Link #16846
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The real problem is, how do you liquidate Greece? Sell off their people as slaves?
You could at least suggest their national assets or resources.
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Old 2011-09-27, 18:55   Link #16847
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The real problem is, how do you liquidate Greece? Sell off their people as slaves?
simple, either the current bond holder refianance Greek debt into a (very)long Bonds with a low interest rate or Greece defaults.

Option 1 gives the banks something and a chance to recoup everything back

option 2 gives them nothing.
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Old 2011-09-27, 19:16   Link #16848
JMvS
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They could default on their debt, as many countries have already done.

But the root of their problem is that they can't do that, because they need to borrow more and more, simply to account for the massive deficit in their budget.

Summary: they are toast. Or at least the Hellenic Republic, member of the EU is.

So unless they figure a way to first balance their budget, and ultimately repay their debt (again, things that other countries have done), the current country will have to vanish, together with all it's obligations.
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Old 2011-09-27, 19:50   Link #16849
DonQuigleone
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Aye, that's the big problem with Greece, not the debt it already has, but the debt it's continuing to accrue. If Greece was running a decent budget their debt wouldn't be such a problem, but their budget deficit is so high that even if they left the Euro their ills would not end. Even if they took the "mint money" root they'd just end out like Zimbabwe.

Even if Greece declared bankrupty tomorrow, that still not going to change the fact that Greece's government can't run a surplus. That's the real root of the problem. Even without the horrendous interest payments Greece would still be in deficit spending territory. Hell, Greece had bad deficits even before the financial crisis.

Also, for those of you that say there's no way for Greece to leave the EU, the Lisbon treaty actually introduced a mechanism.
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Old 2011-09-27, 20:16   Link #16850
MrTerrorist
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Iraq makes first payment in deal to buy 18 US F-16s

How ironic would it be if those jets were the same used during the Gulf Wars?
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Old 2011-09-27, 22:49   Link #16851
AnimeFan188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Iraq makes first payment in deal to buy 18 US F-16s

How ironic would it be if those jets were the same used during the Gulf Wars?
According to:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ssiles-347808/

The F-16IQ is a new aircraft with older missiles and systems.
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Old 2011-09-27, 23:01   Link #16852
suki888
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May they be in peace
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Old 2011-09-28, 04:40   Link #16853
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suki888 View Post
May they be in peace
yeah...
as opposed to their previous aircraft, which were used in pieces.

seriously, what "peaceful" uses do F-16's have ?
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Old 2011-09-28, 08:04   Link #16854
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
According to:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ssiles-347808/

The F-16IQ is a new aircraft with older missiles and systems.
They wanted them to be less performing than the Israeli's F-16's Or what ?
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Old 2011-09-28, 08:42   Link #16855
andyjay729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
1. Greece should never have been allow to join the Euro
2. Greece should have gotten out as soon as their economy ran into trouble.
3. Greece NEEDS to able to devalue its currency and it can't do that as a part of the Euro.
I like the idea of the euro to an extent, in that most of those countries are about the size of American states or Chinese provinces and see so much international movement and business, especially by tourists. So it makes sense that, say, two tourist meccas like Paris and Amsterdam should share a currency.

But not all of Europe is so well-integrated. Unfortunately Greece, the birthplace of democracy, spent much of the 20th century as a fascist tinpot and has a long history of tax evasion and sheltering. (You've heard the saying, "Just because we invented democracy doesn't mean we're really good at it.") Much as I support the EU in theory, they need to realize their financial limits and enforce their criteria for membership. IMNSVHO, Greece's historic instability and poverty should've raised some red flags in Brussels. And the Turks are still trying to get on board. Really? Why not America, since a majority of Americans are descended from Europeans (yes, that includes Hispanics, obviously), and the Founding Fathers at least tried to carry on British, Greek and Roman republican ideals? Why not Israel, since much of its population is descended from postwar Jewish refugees from Europe?
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Old 2011-09-28, 09:55   Link #16856
sneaker
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When you just thought it couldn't get any worse:

http://translate.google.de/translate...8838%2C00.html

The European Parliament approved the reform of the Stability Pact, points against Europe's debt flood:
  1. Countries that break the deficit of 3% will have to pay between 0.2 and 0.5 % of their GDP. Currently only Germany, Finland, Luxembourg and probably Estonia (new member) meet this requirement.
  2. The proportion of debt that exceeds the allowable 60 percent, must be reduced annually by one twentieth. Currently only Finland, Slovaki, Slovenia and Luxembourg are below 60%
  3. In the future, euro-zone countries will have to pay 0.1 percent of economic output as a punishment if they do not compensate for significant current account deficits. (read: Germany with its huge surplus)

Both 1 and 2 basically already existed, but were never punished or really controlled. I doubt they will have any effect now - countries like Greece cannot pay anyways. Some countries have already exceeded 100%.
Point 3 is wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to start. For Germany that would basically mean that it will have to pay yet a few more extra Billions every year, because it has some 200 Billion surplus annually. This alone would be enough to hang the German minister of finance for treason, but it gets even stupider because he agreed because the others said they won't enforce it.
And they are planning a new transaction tax, with many southern politicians already begging for the money to go into the EU instead of the national budgets, meaning that Germany will transfer even more money. Tomorrow the German parliament is expected to pass the new guarantees.
This is getting more and more insane, we are being dragged down deeper and deeper into the shit every day.
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Old 2011-09-28, 11:15   Link #16857
AnimeFan188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
They wanted them to be less performing than the Israeli's F-16's Or what ?
Considering the level of corruption in Iraq:

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/iraq.../20110928.aspx

Those F-16's will probably be compromised as soon as foreign spies start showing
up at Iraqi airbases with briefcases full of money.

No point in giving them the latest stuff.
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Old 2011-09-28, 11:29   Link #16858
Ithekro
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Just good enough to counter whatever Iran has.
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Old 2011-09-28, 11:42   Link #16859
Haak
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So what happens if Iran gets a nuke?
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Old 2011-09-28, 11:52   Link #16860
Ithekro
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What happened to Iraq when the world thought they might get a nuke?
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