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Old 2011-09-28, 05:52   Link #641
rulfo
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
For me it's that fans have gone to treating them like Studio Jesus that is completely infallible to treating them like any other studio and acknowledging where they actually fit in in the grand scheme of the anime industry and where there is room for improvement.
This applies to almost everywhere. I've seen worse... Even fans of other studios pull something like of this. However even though I or We may not agree with their opinion, everyone is still entitled to their opinion about something.

Frankly I share the sentiment way back in 2006 or 2007 when I used to get pissed at those over the top remarks(but this wasn't about anime stuff so I'm not going there). Then I learned, I'm just here for the ride. Why do I need to stress myself with entertainment?

On a side note... Regarding Munto 2009... Could it be that it was a farewell project for Tomoe Aratani? According to Raito-kun she was one of KyoAni's veteran animation director back then. It seems that she left after Munto(2009) and After Story were done. According to him she now works for Nintendo.

So far, ex-KyoAni veterans I'm aware of that are currently involved with upcoming/on going projects on other studios are Touko Takao on Idolm@ster and Satoshi Kadowaki on Guilty Crown(Chief Animation Director).
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Old 2011-09-28, 06:20   Link #642
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I also have to admit that I tend to think of Infinite Stratos as a harem show first and a moe show second, which is the opposite of what I think when I look at the Key-KyoAni collaborations, Haruhi, Angel Beats, and a few others, hence its not something that tends to come to mind for me in moe show discussions despite Charlotte being among my favourite characters, well, ever.
Interesting, how would you distinguish between a moe show and a show of a particular genre with moe characters? For example is IS more of a harem then Haruhi is sci-fi or Kanon is drama? The only thoroughbred moe show I can think of among the top sellers is K-on.

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Oh man. That little bit of Nichijou I watched makes me think it barely qualifies as anime, much less a masterpiece.

Then again comparing stuff to Usagi Drop is never fair, I guess.
Heh, why not? Usagi Drop and Nichijou are textbook examples of faithfull manga interpretations. Both Kyoani and Prod. IG chose an artstyle and color palette that fit the source material, music scores that enhanced the mood, and both benefited from great direction to bring scenes to life.

I wouldn't go as far as to call either anime a masterpiece. Neither improves upon the source material nor does something unique with it in an animation sense. Just good two examples of animation craftsmanship.

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On a side note... Regarding Munto 2009... Could it be that it was a farewell project for Tomoe Aratani? According to Raito-kun she was one of KyoAni's veteran animation director back then. It seems that she left after Munto(2009) and After Story were done. According to him she now works for Nintendo.
It's possible but afaik Munto is Yoshiji Kigami's pet project. He is currently part of the management and was one of the first directors of Kyoani.

Last edited by Bri; 2011-09-28 at 06:46.
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Old 2011-09-28, 09:10   Link #643
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Interesting, how would you distinguish between a moe show and a show of a particular genre with moe characters?
I agree with 0utf0xZer0 on Infinite Stratos.

IS makes me think much more of the classic action-y/fanservice-y harem shows of old (Tenchi Muyo!, Love Hina, Negima!, etc...) than of the eroge/VN adaptations of more recent times (the Key trio, Yosuga no Sora, Amagami SS, etc...).

The main differences being that a "moe show" that's also an eroge/VN adaptation will tend to have more straightforward romance in it, while the harem show tends to have more in the way of slapstick comedy.

It's a nuanced difference, and some shows straddle the line here (Clannad's first season does, admittedly), but once you've seen enough of both harem-y shows and eroge/VN adaptations, you can start to tell the nuance difference between the two. Though I will say that eroge/VN adaptations are in some ways the spiritual successors of the old harem shows.
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Old 2011-09-28, 14:45   Link #644
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Heh, why not? Usagi Drop and Nichijou are textbook examples of faithfull manga interpretations. Both Kyoani and Prod. IG chose an artstyle and color palette that fit the source material, music scores that enhanced the mood, and both benefited from great direction to bring scenes to life.

I wouldn't go as far as to call either anime a masterpiece. Neither improves upon the source material nor does something unique with it in an animation sense. Just good two examples of animation craftsmanship.
I don't think improving upon the source material should be an relevant aspect of rather an anime should be a masterpiece or not because then anime originals would have to be judged on a diffrent set of standard of quality. Though I feel anime original is just superior in the majority of cases unless it's a truly godly adaptation.

Because usually deviating from the source material usually leads to many a disaster; indeed KyoAni has done better sticking to the lines.

But regardless of source, I'd claim Usagi Drop would come closer to a masterpiece since I won't bother comparing them directly.
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Old 2011-10-01, 13:58   Link #645
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Old 2011-10-01, 14:42   Link #646
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Judging from interrnet activity, I imaging sales could pick up at the half way point (and when Nichijou airs in primetime). Mostly due to the seeming explosion of interest after ,ano starts goint to school. Also that the jokes and plots got a lot tighter than in the first half. How many volumes have sales figures so far? It is a 13 volume anime, and the turing point was episode 13 or 14.
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:00   Link #647
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Judging from interrnet activity, I imaging sales could pick up at the half way point (and when Nichijou airs in primetime). Mostly due to the seeming explosion of interest after ,ano starts goint to school. Also that the jokes and plots got a lot tighter than in the first half. How many volumes have sales figures so far? It is a 13 volume anime, and the turing point was episode 13 or 14.
Volume 4 was just released Friday. It contained episodes 7 and 8, so your turning point would be volume 6/7. Here are the sales numbers that we have for volumes 1-3:

Volume 1: 4,005
Volume 2: 2,197 (Only BD ranking;DVD didn't rank, but a good estimate would be around 690 bringing it to around 2,887)
Volume 3: 2,685 (Only BD ranking;DVD didn't rank, but a good estimate would be around 730 bringing it to around 3,415)

Information compiled/estimated by something on AOD. Credit goes to him.

Personally, I feel much is being made based on who said it. We don't know if the opinion that KyoAni's myth is busted is the opinion expressed by Suzuki himself or the general thought from the meeting. It's no secret that Kadokawa titles have not been selling well this year and Nichijou was the most visible due to high publicity/notoriety. Kadokawa titles tend to not sell a lot of discs besides the KyoAni productions; which didn't happen in this one single case. In my field of science, one plot point does not show a trend regardless of output so I'm not convinced the sky is falling. Besides, if they need immediate money, there's always Haruhi to fall back on.
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:35   Link #648
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Originally Posted by RRW View Post
I don't think that a lot of those posters over on MAL fully understand why Nichijou bombing is such a big deal.

It's not just that Nichijou bombed, per se, it's also that there's nothing else out there for KyoAni right now. Nothing at all. Most importantly, there's the context that this is all occurring in, given what we've seen in this calender year so far.


There was a time when KyoAni ruled "moe anime" like Final Fantasy ruled JRPGs.

Having a non-KyoAni "moe" anime come out around the same time that a KyoAni "moe" anime was also coming out was almost commercial suicide, very much comparable to releasing a different JRPG within a couple weeks of the latest FF game.

True Tears, and ef, amongst others, felt the pain of going head-to-head with KyoAni's Clannad.

It wasn't that long ago when KyoAni had the moe fan market almost monopolized, leaving direct competitors fighting over leftovers.


Now, with Nichijou bombing, and KyoAni not having even one other anime out there from Winter 2011 to Fall 2011, KyoAni has left their "moe" marketplace dominance very vulnerable.

A-1 has entered the stage with Anohana (a direct play on the Key/KyoAni customerbase, imo) and iDOLM@STER (a direct play on the K-On/KyoAni customerbase, imo), the first of which is a big sales winner and the latter of which is potentially a 10 K or more seller. Combine that with A-1's sales success amongst the fujoshi (Uta no Prince-sama) and shonen (Ao no Exorcist) customer-bases, and they may be turning into an absolute monster studio, at least commercially.

What happens if/when a KyoAni "moe" title goes head-to-head with A-1's next Anohana or iDOLM@STER? I have a feeling that such a thing won't go as well for KyoAni as Clannad vs. True Tears/ef did.


KyoAni needs to do something big and new (so, no, the K-On movie alone isn't enough) soon, or they risk getting completely eclipsed by A-1 and/or other anime studios.
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:43   Link #649
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Judging from interrnet activity, I imaging sales could pick up at the half way point (and when Nichijou airs in primetime). Mostly due to the seeming explosion of interest after ,ano starts goint to school. Also that the jokes and plots got a lot tighter than in the first half. How many volumes have sales figures so far? It is a 13 volume anime, and the turing point was episode 13 or 14.
I don't think we should expect sales numbers to rise too much considering the content is still being sold at otaku prices. Though, it makes me wonder what kind of agreement they got for the evening time slot airing.
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Old 2011-10-01, 19:06   Link #650
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One other thing that hasn't been discussed much here:
Two cour anime in Japan are typically sold as eight or nine volumes, and the per episode cost is typically lower than for one cour shows. K-On!! and the Key/Kyo-Ani collaborations, both published by Pony Canyon, were sold in this format.

Nichijou is being published by Kadokawa in 13 volumes, with per episode pricing equivalent to a one cour show. And rumour has it the fans are pissed about it.

Granted, Kadokawa used the same pricing scheme on Lucky Star's twelve volume release, but that was before Kadokawa made it painful obvious how much they were milking their fans with Endless Eight.

Edit:
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I agree with 0utf0xZer0 on Infinite Stratos.

IS makes me think much more of the classic action-y/fanservice-y harem shows of old (Tenchi Muyo!, Love Hina, Negima!, etc...) than of the eroge/VN adaptations of more recent times (the Key trio, Yosuga no Sora, Amagami SS, etc...).
You nailed what I was thinking here. I might try and describe Infinite Stratos to someone as Love Hina with mecha... I'd never try and describe it as being like Clannad or K-On.

Why don't I try and explain it like this:

typical scenes in a moe show: cute girls doing cute things, or at least being cute while doing something
typical scenes in a harem show: slapstick comedy, catfights

Infinite Stratos has moe characters, the latter elements are far more prominent to me.


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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Because usually deviating from the source material usually leads to many a disaster; indeed KyoAni has done better sticking to the lines.
Nitpick: K-On!'s second season (which I consider by far the better of the two) supposedly has a fair amount of anime original material, and the Lucky Star manga and anime apparently have very different styles of humour. So I'm not sure I'd say that they've done better by "sticking to the lines" on adaptations.
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Old 2011-10-01, 19:45   Link #651
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Old 2011-10-01, 20:13   Link #652
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Old 2011-10-01, 22:16   Link #653
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not just that Nichijou bombed, per se, it's also that there's nothing else out there for KyoAni right now. Nothing at all. Most importantly, there's the context that this is all occurring in, given what we've seen in this calender year so far.
Really? I think they can, and should, just fall back on Key adaptations, at least for now. That fared well for them in the past, and last year's Angel Beats was a success at least partially thanks to the Key label. And even if that isn't an option, why not give them the job of animating something completely different, like a shounen fighting anime, a shoujo romance anime, a mecha anime, or a family-oriented adventure anime? They could be more like A-1 Pictures.

If you ask me, Nichijou's failure is not so much a devastating blow as it is a wake-up call to Kadokawa and other companies telling them that KyoAni can't transform any pile of junk into a lamborghini and that KyoAni should try adapting something good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There was a time when KyoAni ruled "moe anime" like Final Fantasy ruled JRPGs.

Having a non-KyoAni "moe" anime come out around the same time that a KyoAni "moe" anime was also coming out was almost commercial suicide, very much comparable to releasing a different JRPG within a couple weeks of the latest FF game.

True Tears, and ef, amongst others, felt the pain of going head-to-head with KyoAni's Clannad.

It wasn't that long ago when KyoAni had the moe fan market almost monopolized, leaving direct competitors fighting over leftovers.


Now, with Nichijou bombing, and KyoAni not having even one other anime out there from Winter 2011 to Fall 2011, KyoAni has left their "moe" marketplace dominance very vulnerable.

A-1 has entered the stage with Anohana (a direct play on the Key/KyoAni customerbase, imo) and iDOLM@STER (a direct play on the K-On/KyoAni customerbase, imo), the first of which is a big sales winner and the latter of which is potentially a 10 K or more seller. Combine that with A-1's sales success amongst the fujoshi (Uta no Prince-sama) and shonen (Ao no Exorcist) customer-bases, and they may be turning into an absolute monster studio, at least commercially.

What happens if/when a KyoAni "moe" title goes head-to-head with A-1's next Anohana or iDOLM@STER? I have a feeling that such a thing won't go as well for KyoAni as Clannad vs. True Tears/ef did.


KyoAni needs to do something big and new (so, no, the K-On movie alone isn't enough) soon, or they risk getting completely eclipsed by A-1 and/or other anime studios.
Agreed, except that Nichijou is really not the same type of 'moe' anime that K-On is. Nichijou is primarily a comedy that sacrifices characterization for gags, and it doesn't have nearly the same hinge on characters that shows like K-On and A-Channel do. It's hard to feel moe for characters that aren't even fleshed out properly. That is possibly the main reason it didn't sell well, but maybe it's also because it's a bad anime.
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Old 2011-10-01, 22:48   Link #654
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It's not just that Nichijou bombed, per se, it's also that there's nothing else out there for KyoAni right now.
I'm not convinced that the failure did anything except shatter an illusion.

There's no evidence that the studio has necessarily lost fans. Ultimately, content dictates what people want to buy, so I have little doubt that with the right property and concept, they'd produce another megahit. They may have less room to wriggle than when they were hot off K-ON!, but are they actually much weaker than they were before Nichijou?

Take SHAFT, for instance. In terms of fan enthusiasm and dedication, they're the hottest studio next to KyoAni, yet they sometimes fail across multiple seasons. As with many companies, their strategy is to throw mud at a wall and see what sticks. Nevertheless, when something sticks, it really sticks.

Quote:
they risk getting completely eclipsed by A-1
I tend to see A-1 as something along the lines of EA. Commercially, their shows are poised to dominate across a broad spectrum of genres, and they instantly win when it comes to quantity. However, brand dilution makes it more difficult (although not impossible) for them to attract and maintain a fanatical following. So far, there are few unifying factors between projects, such as staff, target audience, genre, or style. Consequently, they're simply an anime factory for Aniplex with no established identity.

KyoAni is more along the lines of a Valve or id. You could also throw 90s-era Square (distinct product focus + staff that fans worshipped and were really familiar with) in here.
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Old 2011-10-02, 01:38   Link #655
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Nitpick: K-On!'s second season (which I consider by far the better of the two) supposedly has a fair amount of anime original material, and the Lucky Star manga and anime apparently have very different styles of humour. So I'm not sure I'd say that they've done better by "sticking to the lines" on adaptations.
Ahem. I guess I won't express my opinion too strongly on k-on, and I don't know enough to talk about K-on anyways. But said opinion is not good. It's more of disgust.

However, even if that is true, I think the grand majority of anime adaptations would do better to stick to the lines, since I truly think that it's the exception to the rule unless they really are that good.

But it would seem to me that these stories don't seem as plot heavy, so it might not matter. Like for Lucky Star; plot changes aren't gonna heavily affect the narrative.

And in any case, staying faithful always has its benefits. If you read the LS 4 koma, you will see scenes that are replicated perfectly in the anime, so...
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Old 2011-10-02, 07:14   Link #656
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KyoAni is more along the lines of a Valve or id. You could also throw 90s-era Square (distinct product focus + staff that fans worshipped and were really familiar with) in here.
bit off topic, but i dont think you should compare valve to kyoani since game is not their focus. steam is.

definitely agree with id since they once king of FPS but now they losing so much ground since fierce competition (that and carmack is now focus on aerospace)
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Old 2011-10-02, 07:53   Link #657
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Nitpick: K-On!'s second season (which I consider by far the better of the two) supposedly has a fair amount of anime original material,
Not that much, really. Up until episode 20 or thereabouts, pretty much every episode is based on a manga chapter (or is a combination of several). After that it starts to deviate a bit, probably due in a large part to the fact that the anime caught up to the manga publication. Even so, they managed to stick close to the broad strokes.
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Old 2011-10-02, 07:56   Link #658
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Really? I think they can, and should, just fall back on Key adaptations, at least for now. That fared well for them in the past, and last year's Angel Beats was a success at least partially thanks to the Key label. And even if that isn't an option, why not give them the job of animating something completely different, like a shounen fighting anime, a shoujo romance anime, a mecha anime, or a family-oriented adventure anime? They could be more like A-1 Pictures.

If you ask me, Nichijou's failure is not so much a devastating blow as it is a wake-up call to Kadokawa and other companies telling them that KyoAni can't transform any pile of junk into a lamborghini and that KyoAni should try adapting something good.



Agreed, except that Nichijou is really not the same type of 'moe' anime that K-On is. Nichijou is primarily a comedy that sacrifices characterization for gags, and it doesn't have nearly the same hinge on characters that shows like K-On and A-Channel do. It's hard to feel moe for characters that aren't even fleshed out properly. That is possibly the main reason it didn't sell well, but maybe it's also because it's a bad anime.
This is considering that YOU think its a bad anime. Maybe the jokes just didn't fit the moe crowd. Maybe the moe crowd just wanted more girls doing everyday staff (hence A-channel) rather than explosions and a fujoshi going crazy.
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Old 2011-10-02, 08:40   Link #659
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Not that much, really. Up until episode 20 or thereabouts, pretty much every episode is based on a manga chapter (or is a combination of several). After that it starts to deviate a bit, probably due in a large part to the fact that the anime caught up to the manga publication. Even so, they managed to stick close to the broad strokes.
Quite a lot actually. At least 10 episodes are original episodes, as in contents from the manga are not used at all, regardless of whether its the same event or not.

As for the rest, I say around 5 to 10 minutes(10 is pushing it for most episodes) are based on manga material. (e.g. Kyoani made a whole concert episode based on roughly one page of 4-koma manga)
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Old 2011-10-02, 09:13   Link #660
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This is considering that YOU think its a bad anime.
Yes, definitely. It can range from awful to awesome depending on who watches it. I'm not claiming any objective merit on the quality of Nichijou, but I've seen enough people on the internet who have been just as tremendously disappointed in it as I was. Whether you like it or not, this shows that the anime is quite polarizing.

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Maybe the jokes just didn't fit the moe crowd. Maybe the moe crowd just wanted more girls doing everyday staff (hence A-channel) rather than explosions and a fujoshi going crazy.
Agreed. I don't even find A-Channel very funny anyway, but for all its mellowness it was still funnier than Nichijou. And Mio (the fujoshi you mentioned) was one of the funniest characters in Nichijou as far as I've seen (9 episodes at the moment).
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