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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 37 47.44%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 27 34.62%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 10.26%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 5.13%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.28%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-10-01, 03:19   Link #101
Forsaken_Infinity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
And it is also true that only Kanba & Himari had flashbacks with their parents so far. I wonder if that is significant.
Eh? Shoma was in all of those flashbacks. The mother stops him from running out with his Dad and he is the first one other than Himari to notice that their mom was bleeding due to glass cuts.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Self-sacrifice is not the point per se. What set Campanella apart in the novel is that he risked his life for someone who was a pretty nasty person, not one of his loved ones. The point of his act is the altruistic nature of it, not the sacrifice itself.

The tale of the red scorpion parallels Campanella. It's a tale about the value of living (and dieing) for the sake of others (in general, not a loved one specifically).

You see, Miyazawa wrote this novel to get over the death of his sister, whom he loved deeply. The only way for him to overcome his grief, was to see his sister's death through Christian lenses, believing there was a higher purpose to her death, that it was a form of self-sacrifice. That's why he puts so much value on altruism, the sacrifice motivated not by personal attachments, but rather by your willingness to devote yourself to others.

Note that at the end of the novel, Campanella's father gets over the death of his son surprisingly quickly, and proceeds to invite Campanella's friends to his house, for the purpose of cheer them on, even though it should be the other way around. Again, altruism
In a sense, it's a pretty demanding novel, since most people can't be like that. We may risk our lives for our loved ones, but to put everyone else before ourselves, that's really tough.

EDIT: Incidentally, the tale of the red scorpion is also about accepting death instead of struggling against it. This too is the totally opposite to what Kanba is doing!!
Funny you'd say that considering Miyazawa was a DEVOUT Buddhist and considering self-sacrifice is a much stronger concept in Oriental philosophical schools than in any Abrahamic religion.

And I think that's where you're kind of misguided. It's still pretty demanding to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, but not as much, in a society such as the Japanese one when he wrote the novel. It's kind of expected of everyone to willingly self-sacrifice themselves for the common good in traditional Japanese (Buddhist) mentality.

And from what I see, Kanba willing to die in place for his sister is self-sacrifice enough. Basically, I think you're the one putting the demand that Miyazawa's novel must absolutely refer to someone sacrificing themselves for a complete stranger and not the novel itself.

Actually, you go a bit further, you imply that a sacrifice of self to save someone related to you isn't actually self-sacrifice and that's simply not true. It would also mean that most of the selfless acts of sacrifice that are considered as such by the Japanese, the Buddhist, the scholarly or whoever you think Miyazawa borrowed his ideals from aren't actually self-sacrifice. You can always extend relationship outward (a Japanese died for a Japanese because they were Japanese, a human died for another human because they were human ... ad infinitum) but what is there to invalidate someone giving up something so valuable as their very life for someone else as self-sacrifice just because the beneficiary happens to be a loved one of theirs? That self-sacrifice is only so (or that it is only a higher purpose) when the benefactor is unrelated to the beneficiary is thus an inherently flawed argument.

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Old 2011-10-01, 03:44   Link #102
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Eh? Shoma was in all of those flashbacks. The mother stops him from running out with his Dad and he is the first one other than Himari to notice that their mom was bleeding due to glass cuts.
Normally it's possible that the flashback can be altered to mislead plot development (like that arc with Utena) and Shouma simply was not there. However all the flashback of this anime seems to show the "true" past rather than from character's POV. So agree that, it's pretty safe on how Shouma spending the childhood with Kan and later Himari
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Old 2011-10-01, 04:22   Link #103
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Random...but I've been reading some blogs and I have seen mention of cloning: both in the context of one of the twins being a clone and the reason we saw the father twice in that one scene because the other one was also a clone.
Looping that scene, I'm quite sure there was only one Kenzan. He checks his "subordinates" left and right with a shift of camera angle, which gives the impression they were 2, when it was still him. I also thought they(he!) looked at each others first time I watch it, but no.
See the car door? Kenzan is the only one going out, no clone here :
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Old 2011-10-01, 04:36   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Eh? Shoma was in all of those flashbacks. The mother stops him from running out with his Dad and he is the first one other than Himari to notice that their mom was bleeding due to glass cuts.
I never said he wasn't. What I meant was so far the flashbacks centered on Kanba and Himari's interaction with their parents, Shouma has only been in the background. I don't know if that is significant.

Of course we have not gotten a true flashback that centered on Shouma at all yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken View Post
Looping that scene, I'm quite sure there was only one Kenzan. He checks his "subordinates" left and right with a shift of camera angle, which gives the impression they were 2, when it was still him. I also thought they(he!) looked at each others first time I watch it, but no.
See the car door? Kenzan is the only one going out, no clone here :
When I watched it the first time I actually thought this as well but then I started seeing people talk about there being two dads and I started to wonder.

But I think this explanation does make the most sense (still the way the scene was shown was kind of odd).


edit: I am also not sure if I buy into the clone theory (let's say for Shouma) but it would be interesting if it were true.
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Old 2011-10-01, 05:12   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post

Funny you'd say that considering Miyazawa was a DEVOUT Buddhist and considering self-sacrifice is a much stronger concept in Oriental philosophical schools than in any Abrahamic religion.

And I think that's where you're kind of misguided. It's still pretty demanding to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, but not as much, in a society such as the Japanese one when he wrote the novel. It's kind of expected of everyone to willingly self-sacrifice themselves for the common good in traditional Japanese (Buddhist) mentality.

And from what I see, Kanba willing to die in place for his sister is self-sacrifice enough. Basically, I think you're the one putting the demand that Miyazawa's novel must absolutely refer to someone sacrificing themselves for a complete stranger and not the novel itself.

Actually, you go a bit further, you imply that a sacrifice of self to save someone related to you isn't actually self-sacrifice and that's simply not true. It would also mean that most of the selfless acts of sacrifice that are considered as such by the Japanese, the Buddhist, the scholarly or whoever you think Miyazawa borrowed his ideals from aren't actually self-sacrifice. You can always extend relationship outward (a Japanese died for a Japanese because they were Japanese, a human died for another human because they were human ... ad infinitum) but what is there to invalidate someone giving up something so valuable as their very life for someone else as self-sacrifice just because the beneficiary happens to be a loved one of theirs? That self-sacrifice is only so (or that it is only a higher purpose) when the benefactor is unrelated to the beneficiary is thus an inherently flawed argument.
Call me a pessimist as my username implies, but I got the feeling Kazu-kun seriously hates Kanba. Whatever this character does, you will always see the guy's comment to make the worst of it.
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Old 2011-10-01, 05:57   Link #106
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Originally Posted by pessimistic_freak View Post
Call me a pessimist as my username implies, but I got the feeling Kazu-kun seriously hates Kanba. Whatever this character does, you will always see the guy's comment to make the worst of it.
He probably thinks Kanba is unrealistic i think i've heard that around here quite a few times now at least he's far better in terms of relative sanity than Yuki from Anohana..
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Old 2011-10-01, 07:57   Link #107
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Unrealistic how? Because he's a siscon who actually has incestuous feeling for his sister? Because he's a playboy with the harsh attitude after he broke up with his exes? Because he doesn't seem to care about anyone else aside from his family? <-- These are things I came across around here, all of which I found too nit-picking. His voice, however, sounds irritating to ears some times though.

Well, he's not a real life person and he is the way he is yet he has some of his good points. Isn't it better to just accept that and enjoy his role in trying to do what he can for people he considered important to himself? People always put priority on things that benefit them first. It's normal. If you ask me, I'd say Shoma is too gentle and the one more unrealistic. Heck, even Himari is too yet I don't see anyone having a problem with them. And don't get me wrong, I love every character in the show and would be sad if anyone has to go. But honestly, I feel quite uncomfortable seeing someone trying to bash a character at his every move. Leave Kanba be with some of his good points. He's one of the main characters who has increasing roles after all.
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Old 2011-10-01, 08:27   Link #108
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Yes, in a series about penguins, a penguin hat possessing a dead girl, stalkers, diaries that predict the future and now evil bunnies, Kanba stands out as the most unrealistic part of this show. Seriously?

I agree that I find Shouma and Himari more unrealistic than I do Kanba. If you're going to complain about characters being unrealistic, then complain about all of them. I don't see how that's a valid criticism of a character in a show that's not meant to be realistic in the first place.
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Old 2011-10-01, 08:35   Link #109
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I don't find any of the characters unrealistic...at least not by anime standards.
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Old 2011-10-01, 13:04   Link #110
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Anyone think Yuri might be Momoka?
Bah, you've just voiced out my biggest inner hope. Didn't want to acknowledge it because if it's wrong, it'd be even worse for me.
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Old 2011-10-01, 16:43   Link #111
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Bah, you've just voiced out my biggest inner hope. Didn't want to acknowledge it because if it's wrong, it'd be even worse for me.
"The Tragedy of M" opera would be a much more interesting sequence if that were the case.
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Old 2011-10-01, 17:35   Link #112
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"The Tragedy of M" opera would be a much more interesting sequence if that were the case.
I bet it is. The name can't be purely coincidental and this character intrigues me too. Why would you hire a famous VA like Paku for a minor role?
Also, a it may or may not have been pointed out before, Sunshine, the name of the troupe is also the name of the aquarium Himari and her brothers went visiting, itself part of Sunshine city in Ikebukuro.

Edit : after checking Sunshine website, there is actually a Sunshine troupe. So Yuri and her troupe work in the exact same building were the aquarium is located...
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Old 2011-10-01, 17:48   Link #113
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"Why can't it be me?"

Good question. And at long last all this discussion about fate starts to come together. We all have ideals and dreams and feel that if the world is just that the right things should happen to the right people. Yet at times, it seems like the most innocent are punished in the most cruelest way possible. And indeed, these siblings suffer for the crimes of their parents.

So Kanba tries to give himself away, yet it's still no good. They lost; but it looks like bunny guy will throw a wrench in the works.

Good development of Himari and Kanba overall -- 9/10
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Old 2011-10-02, 00:18   Link #114
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I bet it is. The name can't be purely coincidental and this character intrigues me too. Why would you hire a famous VA like Paku for a minor role?
Also, a it may or may not have been pointed out before, Sunshine, the name of the troupe is also the name of the aquarium Himari and her brothers went visiting, itself part of Sunshine city in Ikebukuro.

Edit : after checking Sunshine website, there is actually a Sunshine troupe. So Yuri and her troupe work in the exact same building were the aquarium is located...
Woah is Ikebukuro not the place where the Durarara gang is currently staying at?
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Old 2011-10-02, 00:34   Link #115
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Call me a pessimist as my username implies, but I got the feeling Kazu-kun seriously hates Kanba. Whatever this character does, you will always see the guy's comment to make the worst of it.
Whether I hate the character or not is out of the scope of this thread. You can ask me this by PM if you must, but it's against the rules to talk about this here: focus on the topic and not on the people discussing it.
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Old 2011-10-02, 01:09   Link #116
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Spoiler:


What do you make of the swirls on the lambs? Shouma's has the most spirals, starts from the top and also faces left. Kanba's starts from the bottom and goes right and Himari's starts from the top and goes right. Why does he have more spirals than the other two? Could he be the older twin? Did he have the most "wool?" Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it. XD
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Old 2011-10-02, 01:16   Link #117
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This is just a speculah but I am thinking its very possible that the parent's survival strategy was to ensure that the newborn kids didn't die. They were perhaps not told what the results of their actions would be etc. or perhaps they knew but either way, the survival strategy of theirs, or well, Takakura-san's, was to ensure that the mother and the child both survived. I could be reading too much into it but Takakura-san seemed more worried than normal about his wife but wasn't even at her side wth. And the fact that he went to commence the operation first instead of going to his newborn kid straight away makes me think it was really important that the survival strategy was carried out first.

I think the taboo'd action of stealing the fire from the goddess is akin to trying to keep those who should have naturally died alive. So Takakura-san would be Mary-san. The tree could refer to either his wife or heck, even his work with the penguins. He was part of the arctic defense thing. Maybe the penguins were brought to the city and were to be displayed at the aquarium but somebody didn't want it or something along the lines. The bunnies, led by Sanetoshi, told Takakura-san it was just to keep his wife and kids and / or the penguins alive, told him it would make everyone happy. And he did it but it resulted in tragedy of course. The punishment chosen was the untimely death of Himari, his as of yet unborn child. Or perhaps he got discovered only later. I don't know who the goddess would be though.

Also, if gg's subs are correct for the flashback text (I can't read moonspeak so I can't tell if they are) then it would mean that whoever was born into Takakura family started the strategy himself. WTH o_O

I just noticed that so many people in this page have Homu-chan in their signature >_>
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Old 2011-10-02, 02:18   Link #118
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Funny you'd say that considering Miyazawa was a DEVOUT Buddhist
Whether he's Buddhist isn't the point. I just said he could only cope with his sister's death through a Christian mindset. This is not my opinion but what I read from literary articles about this particular novel. Whether they're wrong or not, I do not know, but after reading the novel myself, I tend to agree with this assessment. Then again, I'm sure all this can be interpreted from a Buddhist perspective too.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
And I think that's where you're kind of misguided. It's still pretty demanding to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, but not as much, in a society such as the Japanese one when he wrote the novel. It's kind of expected of everyone to willingly self-sacrifice themselves for the common good in traditional Japanese (Buddhist) mentality.
The novel was demanding from my own perspective. Whether it applies to anyone else is irrelevant, since it was an off-comment with not particular relation the point I was trying to illustrate.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
And from what I see, Kanba willing to die in place for his sister is self-sacrifice enough. Basically, I think you're the one putting the demand that Miyazawa's novel must absolutely refer to someone sacrificing themselves for a complete stranger and not the novel itself.
You misunderstood. Whether is a stranger is not the point. But there is a difference between self-sacrifice out of personal love and self-sacrifice motivated by a sense of general love for all things, and I think the novel is aware of this difference: note that Campanella doesn't sacrifice himself for just anyone, but for the worst person he knows. Likewise, the red scorpion entertains the idea of sacrificing for the sake of the weasel, his natural enemy. If you think this means nothing, more power to you, but I just don't agree with that.

Now that I think about it, this is pretty much one of the main themes in Madoka (specially shown in the confrontation between Homura's and Madoka's world views).

Now let's go deeper on this vein. Campanella is clearly a Madoka-like character. Like Madoka, he would sacrifice himself for the general well being of the world. Kanba, from Penguindrum, looks to me like a Homura-like character. He would gleefully let the world burn for the sake of his sister, I think. Ikuhara is entitled to his opinion, of course, but I definitely think drawing a parallel between Campanella and Kanba is only possible on a superficial level. The nature of their particular world views and their sacrifices are totally different and even opposite IMO.
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Old 2011-10-02, 06:10   Link #119
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So, let me chime in with a more familiar perspective on Buddhism (my creds: have read Siddhartha by Ozamu Tezuka, :P). Kanba is indeed the red scorpion, a poisonous insect that fed on countless others to survive, but in the moment of coming face to face with mortality wishes that he could give his own life up for someone else. The idea is that just as the scorpion fed on smaller insects to live, so to could its own existence have served to extend the life of the weasel another day--thus giving meaning to the scorpion's life, and at the same time repaying the sacrifice of all of the scorpion's own prey up to that point. This is in contrast to the "waste" which would have arisen from the blind self-preservation instinct that caused the scorpion to jump into the well.

Buddhism envisions a web of connections/causality. Grain passes into a deer. The deer falls prey to a tiger. The tiger's carcass feeds vultures. etc. Fundamental to life, to your every moment of existence, is that you take from others. Fundamental similarly, to the universal mortality, is that someday you will die. Death is the Buddhist conception of suffering, which is the fundamental nature of the world. The transcendental aspect of Buddhism thus directs humans that to escape from suffering freeing oneself from worldly attachments is the only path. Comparatively, the altruistic aspect of Buddhism instructs humans to accept their place/role in that interweaving web of connections/causality (of inevitably taking from others, and inevitable death), and thus direct their life towards a purpose that their sacrifice might serve the good of something else.

I think the red scorpion is a brilliant metaphor for Kanba. It is the altruistic nature of a creature of poison that makes the parable of the red scorpion so touching. It is only because the scorpion had fed upon so many others, that it could understand the meaning of giving itself over to death. I think that, rather than the transcendental rescission from worldliness that is a precept of Buddhism, Kanba and the red scorpion's existences show the true form of a mortal life. They burn brilliantly precisely in their awareness of mortality, both their own and that of the world around them. Because every day their own lives are on the verge of extinction, they struggle furiously, crawling over others to survive. But precisely in knowing of the mortality of all things, they are thus also able to pass their own lives onto others, give themselves up unto death, when the moment comes that they are no longer able to fight.

Not having myself read Night on the Galactic Railroad, I nevertheless hesitate to directly interpret the tale of the red scorpion, which reads like a classic Buddhist parable, with the character of Campanella himself. I find that such Buddhist parables often create a distinction between animals, which are portrayed as empathetic and naturally aware of their role and place in the chain of causality, versus humans which take up that awareness as a moral cause towards worldly transcendence and altruism. Buddhism is a moral system/path designed for humans; but the inspirations they take from generally other forms of life are perceived as "natural".


Kanba's desperate pain and emotion, in the moment he tries to give his life over to Himari, to me is the essential picture of mortal life and beauty itself. I am now also helplessly in love with Kanba * Himari, inevitable tragic ending or not (she is totally into him in return. The way she's so tenderly got him wrapped around her little finger is a freakin' miracle.).


Re: Survival Strategy. Aum Shinrikyo was a doomsday "new religious" cult. From wikipedia, they incorporated Yoga with elements of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and Nostradamus' writings to predict the decay and great calamity of the world and try to establish themselves as the only enlightened spiritual organisation which could survive it. Transparently, this aspect of their practices and teachings, as well as the outcome of their actions, thus takes on great significance in the context of a show about "Survival Strategy".

I've thought from the beginning that the concept "Survival Strategy" implies an impending extinction. With regards to "the destination of your fate", indeed I previously considered that to be the point of "death" somewhere in the future, but since the concept "fate" encapsulates the idea of predestination, perhaps we can take "the destination of your fate" to be the moment an inevitable death, that impending extinction, was set into motion. For the three siblings, given some very rough analysis on the allegory for his parents' sin which Shouma provided, I figure that "the destination of your fate" refers to the '95 subway attack incident.

The parents' own "Survival Strategy" probably has something to do with penguins, given the involvement of Antarctica, the threat/possibility of penguins' own impending doom in that environment, and the fact that one of the penguin groups itself (Kiba Force, is that right?) was responsible for the attack with Takakura-the elders being senior members.

On "Project M", I have come to agree with what some others mentioned that it refers to the maternity of Momoka's mother, who at the time was pregnant with Ringo. That is to say: Momoka's diary is something which points towards Ringo. However, given that we are currently speculating of Momoka's diary as the Penguindrum, which is supposed to be something which enables the survival strategy, I am currently wondering if the final key/outcome of "Survival Strategy" might not somehow be Ringo herself.

Consider that Mary's aim in Shouma's allegory was to revive an apple tree.

I do not currently consider Tabuki to be plotting or after anything. However, given the flashback this episode, I believe him to be very, very broken.
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Old 2011-10-02, 06:26   Link #120
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Whether I hate the character or not is out of the scope of this thread. You can ask me this by PM if you must, but it's against the rules to talk about this here: focus on the topic and not on the people discussing it.
No need to because I have no interest in that. I've acheived my goal by simply pointing it out here, not on PM where nobody else would see it, since I think your opinion on a certain character is bias. I have no intention of going further, don't worry.

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Originally Posted by YayPepsi View Post
What do you make of the swirls on the lambs? Shouma's has the most spirals, starts from the top and also faces left. Kanba's starts from the bottom and goes right and Himari's starts from the top and goes right. Why does he have more spirals than the other two? Could he be the older twin? Did he have the most "wool?" Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it. XD
I think what could be more important might be the order of them where Shoma is in the front and Kanba follows when it should be the other way around. But it could just be that because the teller of the story is Shoma so he is the center.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
This is just a speculah but I am thinking its very possible that the parent's survival strategy was to ensure that the newborn kids didn't die. They were perhaps not told what the results of their actions would be etc. or perhaps they knew but either way, the survival strategy of theirs, or well, Takakura-san's, was to ensure that the mother and the child both survived. I could be reading too much into it but Takakura-san seemed more worried than normal about his wife but wasn't even at her side wth. And the fact that he went to commence the operation first instead of going to his newborn kid straight away makes me think it was really important that the survival strategy was carried out first.
Hmm... I think his expression is pretty normal for a dad who simply couldn't be by his wife's side during the period of giving birth. Not normal for me probably be a broad smile with tears and an utter of a "Thank God" or something to that effect :P

Quote:
Also, if gg's subs are correct for the flashback text (I can't read moonspeak so I can't tell if they are) then it would mean that whoever was born into Takakura family started the strategy himself. WTH o_O
Not sure which part you talked about here but if you mean the text in the pager it's definitely Survival Strategy. And from what I feel, whether Takakura-Papa's new born child would be a boy or a girl might play some part in his decision to attack.
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