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Old 2011-10-03, 19:19   Link #24821
Cao Ni Ma
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Hell, you could kinda fit all of it in since EP1. The whole lack of corpses and how the story went into detail about the amount of time needed for a person to be considered legally dead felt like it was a dead giveaway to something they could use later.

I think what a lot of people dont like about the whole magic ending is the general sense of escapism everyone has. Running away from something isnt something that should be encouraged or romanticized, it should be confronted and fought against or else you'll spend the rest of your life being tormented by it.

Thats why most of the people that read Umineko have that feeling of "Fight against it, Find the truth, Dont let it end there, there has to be more". Its the human thing to do in this case.
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Old 2011-10-03, 19:32   Link #24822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I agree with this belief about what makes a personality... which is why I don't really think the Toya's personality can disapear. At best it can evolve in a faster manner (a personality is in constant evolution)... if Battler's memories are influencing enough or he has a personality that's easy to influence enough. It won't regress.
The point is and AT already made this quite clear, it doesn't matter to the character of Tya what you think. This might sound harsh, but the dimension of subjective perspective forming "reality" as it is present in Umineko makes it impossible to say something like Tya is wrong because he can't disappear.
He experiences Battler's memory as something alien trying to force him out of control over his own body. Therefore it is only natural for him to fight it.
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Old 2011-10-04, 08:25   Link #24823
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To be honest, I've always thought that was done on purpose.
The people in the mansion were made to focus solely on the keys, so that - along with the tenseness of the situation - they probably wouldn't even think about the other door in the boiler room. It'd also be consistent with the idea of big risk. There's also the possibility there were 1 or 2 accomplices in the adults' group who tried to keep their mind off the other door.
They're trying to figure out this baffling event chain. It'd be real hard to believe that of all the parents Krauss doesn't think "hey, you know what, that room where we found dad has another door." He lives there, he probably knows what doors are in his own house.

The major issue with the second door is that it creates an opportunity for an alternative solution to the closed room chain that, if Ryukishi didn't remember the door thing, was not intended by the author. This is a rather considerable mistake. You don't generally want to provide the audience with a potential solution that you did not intend. Especially one that appears to break your clever trick wide open in a way you didn't mean for it to be broken.

The problem with accomplices is that the only opportunity to recruit them is before the family conference, and that means assuming that the conference will last until 6am or so. How exactly do you control this? Tell your accomplices to stall? What if the non-accomplices get too tired and decide to sleep before continuing in the morning? What if nobody notices the smell or sees one of the locked doors before heading to bed? The group just seems too cohesive to guide like that.
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Old 2011-10-04, 09:07   Link #24824
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On the other hand, Krauss probably never goes into the boiler room; that's for servants to do. On the third hand, even if he had forgotten about the door, wouldn't they have noticed it when they entered the boiler room?

And even without a lock, a hammer and some nails could render the door sealed from the inside.
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Old 2011-10-04, 09:56   Link #24825
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Well, as the layout is described in episode 1, that door in the boiler room is one of only two lockless doors from the mansion into the courtyard. Do we ever learn where that other door connects to?

There was also a part in episode 1 where Genji seemed to indicate that the fact that the culprit managed to get Kinzo's corpse into the boiler room meant that he or she probably had a master key.
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Old 2011-10-04, 10:17   Link #24826
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The point is and AT already made this quite clear, it doesn't matter to the character of Tya what you think. This might sound harsh, but the dimension of subjective perspective forming "reality" as it is present in Umineko makes it impossible to say something like Tya is wrong because he can't disappear.
He experiences Battler's memory as something alien trying to force him out of control over his own body. Therefore it is only natural for him to fight it.
In case I hadn't made my point clear I'll repeat it.
I find Toya's fear irrational for a normal person, easy solvable since someone should have told him that what he feared wasn't going to happen especially since the fact he would/could recover his memories was easily predictable.
No need to let him believe they would never return and then let him panic when they do.
Of course it can be argued that even Battler's fear about ships is irrational so maybe, no matter the personality, he's bound to have irrational fears and to overreach about them and there's no way to help it.

Still, while Battler's fear for ship is a comic relief and a hint about how the scene of his escape is likely fictional, his fear to remember is supposed to lead to avoid Ange and to a real fit that will cause him to end up on a wheelchair and it's used for dramatic purposes.
However, from the way everyone describes it, it doesn't help me to feel more sympathetic about him since I can't see him in any real danger.

This is one of the points in which I would have preferred Ryukishi to handle things differently, giving Battler a normal fugue state, or making him traumatized by his memories of the Rokkenjima incident, or causing him some sort of insanity for example.

In that case I could have sympathized with him and understand his choices.
As it's presented, I feel as sympathetic to him as his cousins when he claimed he would fall from the ship and I think this wasn't what Ryukishi was aiming at.

Call me callous if you want but really, his fear feels to unreal to me to be believable.
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Old 2011-10-04, 11:04   Link #24827
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Well, as the layout is described in episode 1, that door in the boiler room is one of only two lockless doors from the mansion into the courtyard. Do we ever learn where that other door connects to?

There was also a part in episode 1 where Genji seemed to indicate that the fact that the culprit managed to get Kinzo's corpse into the boiler room meant that he or she probably had a master key.
I don't think we're ever specifically told where the other two doors in the courtyard go, although from ep2 and ep5 you can probably intuit it.

My assumption is that they lead to the two hallways we're shown occasionally, one with first-floor bedrooms (and probably the main hall) and the other the hallway that runs between the dining room, parlor, and kitchen.

My assumption is that as you enter the foyer the two hallways branch left and right, then turn, and have doors on one side or the other that lead to the courtyard.

Given the location of the boiler room door, I have to assume it's basically directly beneath the foyer, and based on the background images, the entrance to it is probably either right in the foyer or in the hallway between the parlor and dining room.
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Old 2011-10-04, 11:11   Link #24828
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One of the doors goes directly into the kitchen. That's the one Evil Kanon came in through in EP2. I think EP1 confirmed that the other one goes into a hallway, but not which hallway.
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Old 2011-10-04, 11:26   Link #24829
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The problem with accomplices is that the only opportunity to recruit them is before the family conference, and that means assuming that the conference will last until 6am or so. How exactly do you control this?
About this, what do you think about the possibility that in Rokkennima Prime everyone but Battler was already informed about the fake murder plan before 4 October?

This possibility would explain two major problems:


-The first is the absence of Ange both in reality and in the fictional stories. If the family was informed and ready to perform Yasu's crazy plan it becomes natural to think they'd want to leave Ange outside. Not only because she was too young and that whole gruesome scenario wasn't exactly the thing you'd want her to witness if you are a responsible parent, but also because she probably wouldn't be able to play her part reliably. Maria is a different case. She had already a taste for morbid things and she could perform well her part.
Naturally this would also explain how Beatrice knew she wouldn't be there and therefore why she didn't include her in her stories.

-The second problem is Kanon. As we all agree the chances that Shannon actually worked as two different servants for 3 years is quite hard to believe. In addition the fact that apparently the only proof of his existence in the outside world was that cultural festival kinda proves that there was no Kanon servant known by other fukuin servants.
However Kanon must have been an important piece in Beatrice's plan, and Kanon had to be a servant that worked in Rokkenjima for three years and had to be close to Kinzo and so on.
The only way she could have created this illusion for Battler to witness was by involving all the others before the family meeting started.


There is however a problem I see with this interpretation. For this to work we need to assume that Yasu's true identity was already exposed along with the documents that proved she inherited the headship. That however would mean the death of Kinzo was also exposed. Would they really all go along with a plan that left their father and grandfather without a proper burial? And would they really condone that easily Natsuhi's and Krauss' crimes?
Of course we can assume that Yasu promised a lot of money in return, but that was a bit extreme and which guarantees were they given?
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Old 2011-10-04, 11:57   Link #24830
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
About this, what do you think about the possibility that in Rokkennima Prime everyone but Battler was already informed about the fake murder plan before 4 October?

This possibility would explain two major problems:


-The first is the absence of Ange both in reality and in the fictional stories. If the family was informed and ready to perform Yasu's crazy plan it becomes natural to think they'd want to leave Ange outside. Not only because she was too young and that whole gruesome scenario wasn't exactly the thing you'd want her to witness if you are a responsible parent, but also because she probably wouldn't be able to play her part reliably. Maria is a different case. She had already a taste for morbid things and she could perform well her part.
Naturally this would also explain how Beatrice knew she wouldn't be there and therefore why she didn't include her in her stories.

-The second problem is Kanon. As we all agree the chances that Shannon actually worked as two different servants for 3 years is quite hard to believe. In addition the fact that apparently the only proof of his existence in the outside world was that cultural festival kinda proves that there was no Kanon servant known by other fukuin servants.
However Kanon must have been an important piece in Beatrice's plan, and Kanon had to be a servant that worked in Rokkenjima for three years and had to be close to Kinzo and so on.
The only way she could have created this illusion for Battler to witness was by involving all the others before the family meeting started.


There is however a problem I see with this interpretation. For this to work we need to assume that Yasu's true identity was already exposed along with the documents that proved she inherited the headship. That however would mean the death of Kinzo was also exposed. Would they really all go along with a plan that left their father and grandfather without a proper burial? And would they really condone that easily Natsuhi's and Krauss' crimes?
Of course we can assume that Yasu promised a lot of money in return, but that was a bit extreme and which guarantees were they given?
I'll suggest some background ideas to yours.

I'll assume Kinzo is dead and Natsuhi and Krauss must distract their siblings from discovering the truth.
Ergo Shannon suggests to Natsuhi (or tell Genji to suggest to Natsuhi) to resume the halloween celebration (I think they celebrated Halloween previously) to distract them and keep them busy although officially the excuse will be to celebrate Battler being back and volunteer to prepare a script for the game.

The celebration will be a surprise for the kids but the adults will have to take part to it.
So the siblings are informed that 'Kinzo' wants them to take part to a game... and maybe Rudolf is suggested to leave Ange home.

So the siblings know they'll have to take part to a game. The cousins might suspect it (I tend to think in the beginning in Rokkenjima Prime they too thought it was a game... until people started dying for real), though I don't know if Jessica and George are in the whole plot, merely have suspicions or were completely fooled.

The siblings might agree to play because:
-officially the request came from 'Kinzo'
-it will give them a chance to discover something

With this scenery you don't need to expose the fact that Kinzo is dead.

Also I've already suggested in a previous post Kanon might have started showing up in front of people after Kinzo's death. Officially Yasu created him 3 years before the incident but practically he 'got a body' only when, in order to fool the siblings Shannon began to pose as extra servant in front of them when they were in Rokkenjima and randomly show in front of the other servants here and there so, if one of the siblings were to show up all of sudden in Rokkenjima while other servants were there and mention him in front of them they wouldn't go 'eh?'.

This situation would allow Yasu more freedom of movements as the siblings would be instructed during the game about what to do, therefore allowing her to adapt her plan to the situation and possibly not to expose herself as instructions might come in Kinzo's evelopes and therefore everyone would think Kinzo is writing them.

In the same time, if she were to do during the game something that Natsuhi and Krauss wouldn't like (for example to encourage the siblings to solve the epitaph), they couldn't stop the thing as they would have to keep up the illusion Kinzo is alive and therefore wouldn't be able to say that envelopes doesn't come from Kinzo.

Gohda would, of course, believe he's doing things according to Kinzo's orders while Genji and Co would likely know they're obeying to Yasu. Yasu might have left them thought she merely wanted to reveal her true identity... or to pass the headship, so they would agree to take part to it.

I generally don't think she really planned to murder someone FOR REAL, but that merely things went wrong during the game.

What do you think? Does this help?
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Old 2011-10-04, 12:10   Link #24831
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Or... Kinzo was alive, and pretending he's dead was part of the game.

So he could be like "SURPRISE, ASSHOLES! Who wants some cake?"
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Old 2011-10-04, 12:19   Link #24832
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@Jiblue1

It might work but it'd still be quite strange. The adults should have started to become suspicious about Kinzo's disappearance. As we know, he used to meet with the family without any problem. To come up with such a ridiculous plan after "vanishing"... well... I think most adults would definitely want to meet with Kinzo in person before accepting the orders. At any rate they might try to foil the plan as soon as they had more solid chances to prove Kinzo wasn't alive, way too risky. You can't expect people to perform that well under such circumstances.

Quote:
I generally don't think she really planned to murder someone FOR REAL, but that merely things went wrong during the game.
I don't think she planned to directly kill everyone, but I think she planned to blow off the island in case her test failed.

in EP7 she said she took inspiration from Kinzo's plan and his magic and that she entrusted everything to fate, hoping for a miracle.
So In my opinion she really did it. She used the same Kinzo's magic for her plan, she prepared the bomb and she was ready to make it explode, of course she was hoping for a miracle to occur in which case she would flip the switch to off. That's basically what Kinzo always did for his gambles, or so they say. Anyway he wouldn't need a real bomb if he wasn't ready to use it.

Yasu must have prepared the bank accounts in case she lost the gamble.


Quote:
Or... Kinzo was alive, and pretending he's dead was part of the game.

So he could be like "SURPRISE, ASSHOLES! Who wants some cake?"
You know, I like this one, but to make it really effective he should have already "abdicated" in Yasu's favor. Well it could explain his sudden death in a metaphorical sense. The "head" of the family died and only his ghost remained. That way the rest of the family would have no choice but to depend on this witch to get the money they needed.
Naturally according to Yasu's fake scenario Kinzo was supposed to be already dead and therefore he could never appear except for the fake body that was prepared.

Well I guess that works...
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Old 2011-10-04, 12:39   Link #24833
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If personalities can die, "the family head Ushiromiya Kinzo" can die and be replaced by a laid-back old man who doesn't give a damn anymore because he's already passed control over everything to his chosen heir.

Plus that way you don't have to explain why you'd need to bribe everyone to cover up his death. He ain't dead.
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Old 2011-10-04, 12:45   Link #24834
Jan-Poo
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And Nanjo is incompetent! Well no news about that.

1984
How much time Kinzo has left to live?
Nanjo: "Well... I'd say three months..."

1985
How much time Kinzo has left to live?
Nanjo: "Well... I'd say three months..."

1986
How much time Kinzo has left to live?
Nanjo: "Well... I'd say three months..."
Everyone: "..............."
Beatrice: "So far you've been overly pessimistic, but today? That was way too optimistic! *cackle* *cackle* *cackle*"
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Old 2011-10-04, 13:18   Link #24835
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I havent played episode 8 yet but does episode 8 shine any light on what roll Gohda has on this?

Gohda was not hired when Kinzo was alive. He was hired afterwards by Natsuhi to do the cooking, especially for the family gatherings. I guess the back ground checks and all that was handled by Genji.

All the servants at the time of Kinzo's death: Genji, Kumasawa, Shanon/Kanon & Nanjo was present when Kinzo died & Natsuhi and Krauss know that Kinzo is really dead.

Gohda is kept in the dark and cant serve Kinzo at all and he does not wear the golden eagle emblem.

So why is Genji in on all the deaths with the fantastical happenings? In Episode 1 where Kanon killed Nanjo went poof or in Episode 4 where Kinzo summons all the demons etc...

Wouldnt it make sense that Gohda is also in on it and knows that the real head is really Shanon/Kanon. Wouldnt Genji help select a cook who knows who the real head of the family was and is loyal to that person and not Krauss/Natsuhi?
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Old 2011-10-04, 13:27   Link #24836
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In case I hadn't made my point clear I'll repeat it.
I find Toya's fear irrational for a normal person, easy solvable since someone should have told him that what he feared wasn't going to happen especially since the fact he would/could recover his memories was easily predictable.
No need to let him believe they would never return and then let him panic when they do.
Of course it can be argued that even Battler's fear about ships is irrational so maybe, no matter the personality, he's bound to have irrational fears and to overreach about them and there's no way to help it.
Doctors don't know everything; dissociative disorders are rare in the real world, and research done on them is very limited. They often don't fit into neat categories, so even though Touya's condition is made up, it does not mean it's entirely implausible that such a condition could exist. Also, the uniqueness of his condition is lampshaded by Yukari's initial angry reaction when she learned that Touya recovered Battler's memories yet still refused to meet her, as well as the subsequent explanation needed for her to understand why Touya made that decision.

Given his unique condition, I don't think that a responsible doctor could guarantee anything; and I don't think Touya's reaction to his situation is unrealistic, nor do I find his fears implausible or even entirely unfounded.

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I don't think we're ever specifically told where the other two doors in the courtyard go, although from ep2 and ep5 you can probably intuit it.
"Other" two? I said the boiler room door was "one of two". Did I remember wrong? Or did you read me wrong? Or both?

So I reread it. Indeed I remembered wrong. However, I figured out something important: Those two other doors were the only doors being talked about when it was said that they weren't built with locks. In other words, the door from the boiler room to the courtyard does have a lock on it. It makes sense too, since the boiler room is a special area with restricted access and a lock to only one of its entrances would be pointless (since the other entrance would be connected to the courtyard, an open access area).

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One of the doors goes directly into the kitchen. That's the one Evil Kanon came in through in EP2.
That door goes to the back of the house.
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Old 2011-10-04, 13:46   Link #24837
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Originally Posted by BettiePage View Post
I havent played episode 8 yet but does episode 8 shine any light on what roll Gohda has on this?

Gohda was not hired when Kinzo was alive. He was hired afterwards by Natsuhi to do the cooking, especially for the family gatherings. I guess the back ground checks and all that was handled by Genji.

All the servants at the time of Kinzo's death: Genji, Kumasawa, Shanon/Kanon & Nanjo was present when Kinzo died & Natsuhi and Krauss know that Kinzo is really dead.

Gohda is kept in the dark and cant serve Kinzo at all and he does not wear the golden eagle emblem.

So why is Genji in on all the deaths with the fantastical happenings? In Episode 1 where Kanon killed Nanjo went poof or in Episode 4 where Kinzo summons all the demons etc...

Wouldnt it make sense that Gohda is also in on it and knows that the real head is really Shanon/Kanon. Wouldnt Genji help select a cook who knows who the real head of the family was and is loyal to that person and not Krauss/Natsuhi?

Absolutley nothing of that sort was mentioned in EP8, I'm sorry.


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So I reread it. Indeed I remembered wrong. However, I figured out something important: Those two other doors were the only doors being talked about when it was said that they weren't built with locks.
Actually:

Quote:
Because the courtyard couldn't be entered from outside the mansion, the doors had been built without locks
Although the last subjects were those two other doors, this sentence doesn't specify that it's referrring to those two doors and only those. In addition if the reason of them not having locks was because they were internal doors, then why in the world the boiler room door should have a lock? It makes no sense.
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Old 2011-10-04, 14:48   Link #24838
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That door goes to the back of the house.
Huh, I reread it and you're right. I've been mistaken about that since the first time I read it, apparently.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Although the last subjects were those two other doors, this sentence doesn't specify that it's referrring to those two doors and only those. In addition if the reason of them not having locks was because they were internal doors, then why in the world the boiler room door should have a lock? It makes no sense.
Although it's a mansion, it's still (or was in the past) a house with children living it, and the boiler room does have dangerous equipment like an incinerator and a boiler in it. You don't want children randomly wandering in and hurting themselves.
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Old 2011-10-04, 15:16   Link #24839
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Although the last subjects were those two other doors, this sentence doesn't specify that it's referrring to those two doors and only those.
So you're just going to assume the interpretation which dictates that RK07 fucked up? Cut him a little slack... I mean, if you take the context it's pretty clear that he's talking about those two doors and applying the sentence to the third door is just us extrapolating on our own.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In addition if the reason of them not having locks was because they were internal doors, then why in the world the boiler room door should have a lock? It makes no sense.
Plenty of other "internal" doors have locks on them (Natsuhi's room, etc.). What's being referred to here is that there's no particular need to install locks on the courtyard doors to protect the mansion at large (like you would on front and back doors). However, the boiler room is special and warrants an internal lock.

Like I wrote before, what would really make no sense is if one route of access to the boiler room was lockable while the other one wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Huh, I reread it and you're right. I've been mistaken about that since the first time I read it, apparently.
Yeah, well I thought the same as you did, so I reviewed it when I wanted to comment on this topic; I was just as surprised as you are to find out I was wrong. I think it's because Kumasawa's and Nanjo's corpses were found in the courtyard that we tricked ourselves.
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Old 2011-10-04, 16:32   Link #24840
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So you're just going to assume the interpretation which dictates that RK07 fucked up? Cut him a little slack... I mean, if you take the context it's pretty clear that he's talking about those two doors and applying the sentence to the third door is just us extrapolating on our own.

Plenty of other "internal" doors have locks on them (Natsuhi's room, etc.). What's being referred to here is that there's no particular need to install locks on the courtyard doors to protect the mansion at large (like you would on front and back doors). However, the boiler room is special and warrants an internal lock.

Like I wrote before, what would really make no sense is if one route of access to the boiler room was lockable while the other one wasn't.
Can someone just analyze the actual Japanese text to determine if it's speaking specifically about the two non-boiler doors, or all the doors in the courtyard?

Regardless, I'm not sure anyone even checked those doors. Even if they did, it's not implausible to believe, depending on the type of door, that the boiler room door opens from the inside. If ep3 simply said both sets of doors to the basement were locked, there wouldn't even be an issue and it would settle the ambiguity. However, there may not even be ambiguity anywhere but the translation, so that's what I'd like to see checked first.
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