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Old 2011-10-01, 21:12   Link #6881
zorahk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corovaneer View Post
You should probably try and learn Japanese in the meantime.
And you'll probably get decent in it before the full translation release.
this is such an uninformed post. you will not be decent in Japanese in a few months nor a few years. I would say it would take someone at least 5 years to be proficient in the language and at least 10 to be native-like. this is just my opinion, but I am a bilingual speaker of Japanese and English and I can tell you for a fact people don't just start speaking languages overnight.
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Old 2011-10-01, 23:53   Link #6882
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corovaneer
You should probably try and learn Japanese in the meantime.
And you'll probably get decent in it before the full translation release.
this is such an uninformed post. you will not be decent in Japanese in a few months nor a few years. I would say it would take someone at least 5 years to be proficient in the language and at least 10 to be native-like. this is just my opinion, but I am a bilingual speaker of Japanese and English and I can tell you for a fact people don't just start speaking languages overnight.
Why do some people react to this rather violently? I actually would advise the same. You could start learning Japanese now and by the time Ryuukishi released another When They Cry game, you'd save yourselves the waiting time for translators to make the english patch (and you'd buy yourself an earlier ticket for discussing with fellow fans). It would also serve as a distraction while waiting for the last English patch of Umineko.

Really, when you gets down to it, learning Japanese isn't really that hard if you put your heart into it. I became quite proficient in about one year after starting my galge reading carreer (relying solely on galge to improve my Japanese), and I don't think I'm particularly adept at learning new languages or anything.

Although R07's works employ heavy thematic elements, I think he uses a rather straightforward and only moderately difficult Japanese (compared to, say, Kinoko Nasu or Shumon Yuu if you know who they are) so you don't really need to be native-like to enjoy it.

Besides, you really can't go wrong by increasing your language repository.
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Old 2011-10-02, 06:19   Link #6883
moichispa
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I think too that it is a good idea to think about learning Japanese.

I have been learning for a while and I have try to read Visual novels in Japanese recently (not umineko yet) so I can understand about this.

You may not understand everything as a 5+ or 10+ years student but you can get more and less what's happening and enjoy it. I don't have experience with Atlas but I think it might be similar. So you can always wait more patiently to get the English translation to confirm the part you couldn't understand.

Also being impatient will not left anything but having knowledge about Japanese language is really something interesting not only for the VN field.
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Old 2011-10-02, 06:35   Link #6884
RedKey
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I agree with what moichispa said. In my case, studying just one hour or so a day (obviously doing also something else in my free time like reading some simple manga, easy articles on the web and language immersion in general) I went from basically nothing to full JLPT N4 level (and something more) in five and a half months. That's far from being proficient and able to read VNs or LNs fluently, but it also helps with my curriculum and it's not like it's a special feat at all. Anyone can do it provided they have some motivation and dedication.

On another note, I'm happy for the new ONScripter release. Thanks!
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Old 2011-10-02, 08:02   Link #6885
zibbazabba905
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I know someone who was doing that teaching english in japan thing, and she couldn't read much in umineko
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Old 2011-10-02, 16:58   Link #6886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zibbazabba905 View Post
I know someone who was doing that teaching english in japan thing, and she couldn't read much in umineko
I'm sorry this is really not personal, but teaching English in a foreign country is not something that specifies you as someone who can speak that countries language very well. I know some people who did it and...it really doesn't say much.

I'm now learning Japanese for ~4 years, passed the JLPT N2 and I'd say I'm fairly competent when it comes to reading VNs. But I'm terrible when it comes to actually speaking Japanese...it's all about what you actually train most of the time.
I read most of the time, sometimes I write some basic stuff...conversation is almost non-existent. So it really depends on the individual person.
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Old 2011-10-02, 18:05   Link #6887
The Creator
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Hey i'm learning japanese too, i'm about to finish the second book of "Minna no nihongo". Could you recommend me some pages where i can read simple stories or mangas, please?

If they are stories made for students, then it would be even better.
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Old 2011-10-03, 07:43   Link #6888
Ravenholme
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Since we're all talking about learning Japanese, and specifically how to read it, does anyone recommend any ways/software/etc to learn it? Classes are non-existent where I am, so that's not an option.
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Old 2011-10-03, 08:19   Link #6889
Cao Ni Ma
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Their several quiz games that can help you learn hiragana and katakana rather easily and quickly. Kanji is a whole different beast to tackle and although you can learn them like this, you'd have to study them in two different ways. Memorization of what they mean in English and memorization of how to pronounce them in Japanese.

I use Kanji Tutor for my phone to play around my free time in school or while Im working. I remember using a mac os x program a long time ago to learn hiragana and katakana but dont quite remember its name.

e- the name was nuku.
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Old 2011-10-03, 14:51   Link #6890
guro
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I've been studying Japanese for two years, it's actually my major, but I can't read umineko because the school hasn't taught us enough kanji. I would have no problem if it was just katakana/hiragana.
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Old 2011-10-03, 15:02   Link #6891
RedKey
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Originally Posted by guro View Post
I would have no problem if it was just katakana/hiragana.
But wouldn't that actually be a major hindrance? I can't imagine myself being able to read quickly paragraphs composed only of hiragana and katakana.
(are we by any chance derailing this thread too much, Klashikari?)
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Old 2011-10-03, 15:10   Link #6892
Klashikari
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I personally wanted to stop the subject before it goes out of hand, but this part is always critical when it comes to discussion with translator and whatnot, so while I unfortunately cannot bring more details of our current situation (aside of being roughly at 65% of the overal translation of ep8), exploring this is "sort" of on topic to a minimum degree.
Better to stop things on their tracks now, but just giving my 2 cents while I'm at it:

Hiragana and Katakana only text are -horrible-. As easy as they may be in term of reading, it requires much more concentration and context reading to figure -what- the said text is trying to convey, since you are basically stuck with phonetic only. In fact, it is as if following an anime but replacing the voice by some visuals, making the deal even harder to follow.

Learning Kanji is tedious, but Hiragana only is just a much worse idea, a practical nightmare even, unless we are dealing with kindergarten level of text.
Furigana however is a complete different matter, but not so practical for VN interfaces.
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Old 2011-10-03, 21:04   Link #6893
kanketsu
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I think that reading hiragana/ katakana only text can be likened to reading English text without capitals and spaces. ^^
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Old 2011-10-03, 21:19   Link #6894
Cao Ni Ma
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That'd work if the japanese language didn't have such a large number of homophones. It borrowed a lot from mandarin back in the day, but while mandarin retained its large variety of sounds the japanese kept simplifying till it became what it is right now. In the process those subtle sounds that differentiated the words where lost. Now you have words that sound exactly the same and you can only rely on context to understand what it is you're being talked about.

But enough about this japanese chat. Lets continue the eternal vigil till the patchs release.
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Old 2011-10-03, 23:18   Link #6895
Lotaphi
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Happy Umineko day everyone!
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Old 2011-10-04, 04:19   Link #6896
Bluemail
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Yeah, it's the "happy" Umineko day now. Tomorrow the murders start!
It's going to be the 25th Anniversary of the Rokkenjima Massacre actually.
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Old 2011-10-04, 20:45   Link #6897
DoktorFunk
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Yeah, it's the "happy" Umineko day now. Tomorrow the murders start!
It's going to be the 25th Anniversary of the Rokkenjima Massacre actually.
Has it really been that long since that crooked bitch Eva went and killed her whole family just to inherit it's entire wealth? Oh well... at least she's not alive to celebrate it.

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Old 2011-10-04, 23:47   Link #6898
zorahk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Why do some people react to this rather violently? I actually would advise the same. You could start learning Japanese now and by the time Ryuukishi released another When They Cry game, you'd save yourselves the waiting time for translators to make the english patch (and you'd buy yourself an earlier ticket for discussing with fellow fans). It would also serve as a distraction while waiting for the last English patch of Umineko.

Really, when you gets down to it, learning Japanese isn't really that hard if you put your heart into it. I became quite proficient in about one year after starting my galge reading carreer (relying solely on galge to improve my Japanese), and I don't think I'm particularly adept at learning new languages or anything.

Although R07's works employ heavy thematic elements, I think he uses a rather straightforward and only moderately difficult Japanese (compared to, say, Kinoko Nasu or Shumon Yuu if you know who they are) so you don't really need to be native-like to enjoy it.

Besides, you really can't go wrong by increasing your language repository.
Define proficient. I doubt after one year you are what I would call proficient. Can you read a similar amount of kanji to a native speaker? Do you have no problems discussing a wide range of topics, reading books, or writing essays? Can you navigate your way in Japan by reading signs and such?

Japanese is not an easy language, and one year of study is not going to give you a meaningful grasp of the language.

Unless you can read and write (though write is not that important anymore with the advent of computers) the same amount of kanji as a native speaker, your Japanese ability is not "proficient" by any standard. As Klash said, reading Japanese with only kana is like getting a root canal with no painkillers. I was once tutoring a Japanese friend in English, and she had to write an essay. I told her to write down some of her thoughts for what she wanted to write about in Japanese first so we could discuss them. She wrote them almost all in Hiragana. I told her to come back later when she had learned her own language before she decided to study another one, because quite frankly I said "I can't read this"

People who advocate the removal of Kanji from Japanese and the writing of Japanese in either full-kana or romanized text have obviously never tried to read those texts. It's almost impossible to read kana or romaji text with any great degree of speed or accuracy, to the point where I refuse to read anything written that way. Basically, as long as the kanji are common enough that people can read and understand them, the more kanji you have the easier it is to read, until you get past that point and the kanji are too rare or obscure to be read. Granted though, some things which are considered hard to read really aren't, it's just people being stupid.

At any rate, I don't expect people to be able to write 薔薇 from memory or be able to count 鎧 with a proper counter (which by the way is 1領、2領 etc), but I DO expect anyone who claims they can speak Japanese well to at least be able to read and write proficiently.

Also, if it wasn't for the post WWII spelling reforms, kana would be much harder than it is today. Consider yourselves lucky. Kana orthography used to make little or no sense whatsoever. There's no difference in pronunciation of ゐる and いる, but they're different words and are spelt differently. Don't get me started on the usage of じ ぢ ず づ
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Old 2011-10-05, 04:38   Link #6899
erneiz_hyde
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I read and understood enough of untranslated Umineko. That's the only "standard" proficiency I need anyways. It's not like I plan to go study in Japan or anything.

Btw I agree, reading a sentence full of katakanas are actually more difficult for me now.
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Old 2011-10-05, 11:33   Link #6900
OBrasilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
Define proficient. I doubt after one year you are what I would call proficient. Can you read a similar amount of kanji to a native speaker? Do you have no problems discussing a wide range of topics, reading books, or writing essays? Can you navigate your way in Japan by reading signs and such?

Japanese is not an easy language, and one year of study is not going to give you a meaningful grasp of the language.

Unless you can read and write (though write is not that important anymore with the advent of computers) the same amount of kanji as a native speaker, your Japanese ability is not "proficient" by any standard. As Klash said, reading Japanese with only kana is like getting a root canal with no painkillers. I was once tutoring a Japanese friend in English, and she had to write an essay. I told her to write down some of her thoughts for what she wanted to write about in Japanese first so we could discuss them. She wrote them almost all in Hiragana. I told her to come back later when she had learned her own language before she decided to study another one, because quite frankly I said "I can't read this"

People who advocate the removal of Kanji from Japanese and the writing of Japanese in either full-kana or romanized text have obviously never tried to read those texts. It's almost impossible to read kana or romaji text with any great degree of speed or accuracy, to the point where I refuse to read anything written that way. Basically, as long as the kanji are common enough that people can read and understand them, the more kanji you have the easier it is to read, until you get past that point and the kanji are too rare or obscure to be read. Granted though, some things which are considered hard to read really aren't, it's just people being stupid.

At any rate, I don't expect people to be able to write 薔薇 from memory or be able to count 鎧 with a proper counter (which by the way is 1領、2領 etc), but I DO expect anyone who claims they can speak Japanese well to at least be able to read and write proficiently.

Also, if it wasn't for the post WWII spelling reforms, kana would be much harder than it is today. Consider yourselves lucky. Kana orthography used to make little or no sense whatsoever. There's no difference in pronunciation of ゐる and いる, but they're different words and are spelt differently. Don't get me started on the usage of じ ぢ ず づ
I don't get it why most Japanese speakers maintain Japanese is incomprehensible unless written in Kanji. In my opinion, that's false because were it true, spoken Japanese would have pretty much died a long time ago already, as it would mean spoken Japanese is impossible to understand. Yet people in Japan still to this date speak Japanese in their day to day life.
Obviously the spoken language has a way to distinguish between (quasi-)homophones. It's pitch accent. So make a writing system for Japanese that notates not only the basic morae (not syllables, contrary to popular belief) that kana notate, but also also the pitch accent, and add spaces to it, and you have a good writing system for Japanese that doesn't require thousands of characters to be read properly.
Phonetic simplicity doesn't require thousands of characters to be written properly. Case in point, Hawaiian language, which arguably has even less sounds than Japanese, yet it's perfectly understandable when written in the alphabetic Latin script.

As for people claiming that any writing system apart from the current one would make Japanese somehow un-Japanese... once again false. Do people even realize that the kanji were taken from Chinese? They're even called, literally han characters which means Chinese characters. Not that the Latin script was invented for English, not at all, just the same, it was invented for Latin, from the Greek script.
A writing system shouldn't be a founding pillar of one's culture or language. Look at Romanian. It used to be written in an extremely odd variant of Cyrillic, with lots of unique characters, then one day it was changed to Latin script, but do you think the Romanian culture and laguage became any less Romanian becuase of that? No, not at all.
Just like Korean didn't become any less Korean when it switched from hanja (the Korean equivalent of kanji) to their own phonetic-cluster hangeul writing system.

My question is, why don't the Japanese for once look at Korea and see how the Korean language was able to drop hanja and develop its own hangeul, and do something similar in Japanese as well? After all, the switch from hanja to hangeul increased literacy in Korea a lot, so it'd be just logical to assume that a switch from kanji+kana to a new, easier writing system would increase literacy in Japan as well.
And if the new system spaces the words and notates things like pitch accent, and other things that disambiguate words in spoken Japanese, then understandability wouldn't be a problem at all.

Edit: And yes I have tried to read kana-only Japanese text, and it's pretty much easier for me to parse only kana, than it is to figure out which kanji in a group of 5 or so kanji belong to one word, and which belong to the next word.
And I have tried to read hangeul-only Korean text (pretty much standard in Korean today), and again, it was pretty easy to read and understand it. And the little knowledge I have of Mandarin Chinese enables me to understand some sentences written in Pinyin pretty fine as well. Not something I would say for the native hanzi, though.
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