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Old 2011-10-06, 22:40   Link #24901
AuraTwilight
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Eh, I disagree. I like how Beatrice was treated because it's pretty much the ultimate logical conclusion of her symbolism.
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Old 2011-10-06, 23:13   Link #24902
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I don't agree with that, but well... perspectives.
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Old 2011-10-06, 23:49   Link #24903
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Well, yea. But I'll just say that the way she's depicted in canon, Yasu and I are basically the same person through different lives, so the way he wrote her kinda hits close to home in a good way.
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Old 2011-10-06, 23:54   Link #24904
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I didn't mean to say she was lame in a bad way. Well, lame was a bad choice of words. I liked Yasu a lot, but I didn't like her being the "real" Beatrice. I felt that the grandiose aura Beatrice had to her was lost in Chiru, and almost completely so in EP7.

It's just my impression, so don't pay much attention to it.
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Old 2011-10-07, 00:13   Link #24905
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Well, I think that was kind of the point. The Beatrice we fell so in love with was a complete facade; if she was really so great, why pretend to be an awesome witch to get respect from people?

She's really the case study Ryukishi uses to get across his message; that sometimes it's okay to believe in magic and let things lie buried for a beautiful illusion.
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Old 2011-10-07, 01:47   Link #24906
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I don't agree with her being a façade. Beatrice was an illusion of Yasu's.
Yasu started the magic business for two reasons. One was to gain respect by pulling pranks on people, but that's as far as she kept her witchy business. The other one was to gain "freedom," since she had got tired of her life as a servant since she had come to find it monotonous and she was also tired of being treated like crap.

Of course, Beatrice originally was nothing but Yasu's escape-goat to her forgetfulness. However, after learning magic from Kumasawa, she started envying Beatrice because she wanted that power and freedom.

Both GaapBeato and WhiteBeato are very different from the Meta Beatrice we saw from EP1 to EP4. Even the final Beatrice Yasu constructed was basically WhiteBeato with a new design and love for Battler.

The Beatrice we saw in the Meta World from EP1-4 displayed much more experience, understanding of things and malice than any of Yasu's Beatrices. Meta Beatrice had an air of calmness to her. She was a strategist and an aggressive gamer. She could be very refined but she also had a very vulgar side to herself. Her malice was the real thing, as seen how she truly took pleasure of seeing Rosa get killed constantly by Evatrice and expecting Battler to enjoy that scene as well. Sure, she wasn't as bad as she tried to come off, but she did have malice to herself - a very wicked kind to boot. A fun thing is that despite her being a witch, she could be very down to earth in many aspects, to the point in which she could show some deep understanding about people - even though she seemed to enjoy dwelling more on the bad side of people than on their good sides, since she seemed to take pleasure on that, probably because she disliked people to some extent. Finally, she was also very passionate. That's probably the trait I liked about her the most.

Yasu, whilst sharing some traits with Meta Beatrice, like the love for mystery novels and Battler, in terms of personality she was nothing like Beatrice. You could say Beatrice is what she aspired to become, but couldn't. In that regard, to Yasu, Beatrice would be nothing but an illusion. This is why I think Meta Beatrice is not a façade to Yasu, because she's not using Beatrice to show her true self whilst wearing a disguise.

I can agree, though, to Beatrice being a façade for Yasu in the gameboards, in which she's trying to create an illusion. But we've seen the Beatrice in Rokkenjima several times and she was either a very naive, innocent girl or a very broken person.

Anyhow, that aside, we met Meta Beatrice before we learned of Yasu. That's why I was rather disappointed with what she became in Chiru, nothing but a husk of her former self. I'd have been happy if Beatrice had been an actual façade to Yasu, who was using that illusion to portray her real self. That way you could say Beatrice was actually the real thing despite her physical appearance being fake. But ultimately, Meta Beatrice never existed.
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Old 2011-10-07, 02:01   Link #24907
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Quote:
I don't agree with her being a façade. Beatrice was an illusion of Yasu's.
What's the difference?

Quote:
Her malice was the real thing, as seen how she truly took pleasure of seeing Rosa get killed constantly by Evatrice and expecting Battler to enjoy that scene as well.
Given that she was apparently planning a troll for that entire episode, I'm not sure we can safely say she was sincere about this malice.

Quote:
Yasu, whilst sharing some traits with Meta Beatrice, like the love for mystery novels and Battler, in terms of personality she was nothing like Beatrice. You could say Beatrice is what she aspired to become, but couldn't. In that regard, to Yasu, Beatrice would be nothing but an illusion. This is why I think Meta Beatrice is not a façade to Yasu, because she's not using Beatrice to show her true self whilst wearing a disguise.
I think you misunderstand how I was using the term "Facade"; The term 'Facade' essentially means 'a charade' or 'a false persona'. Yasu was playing a character she WASN'T. While parts of her real identity may or may not have leaked through, the point is Beatrice doesn't exist in any real capacity. She was a fictional character Yasu created, and she's a dedicated actress. That's what I mean.

Quote:
Anyhow, that aside, we met Meta Beatrice before we learned of Yasu. That's why I was rather disappointed with what she became in Chiru, nothing but a husk of her former self. I'd have been happy if Beatrice had been an actual façade to Yasu, who was using that illusion to portray her real self. That way you could say Beatrice was actually the real thing despite her physical appearance being fake. But ultimately, Meta Beatrice never existed.
That would've been even more disrespectful to Beatrice, in my opinion. Beatrice was something she wanted to be for Battler. This is pretty heavily implied even before Yasu comes up. By the end of EP4, you can tell that Beatrice isn't who she really is, figuratively or otherwise, which is why she wants Battler to 'kill her'. If he can't see through the fake personality she made, or worse yet, SETTLES for it, then what's the point in revealing her real self to him and hoping he appreciates it?

Beatrice's personality being "Yasu's true self unexpressed in day-to-day life" isn't consistent with any of the characterization given in the first four episodes. The only 'true' part of Beatrice's existence is her feelings for Battler.
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Old 2011-10-07, 07:51   Link #24908
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I had a whole long post written answering to many different posts, but I mistakenly deleted it... too depressed to rewrite it all, I'll just go with the short version.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, let's play devil's advocate here and see if we actually run into a contradiction.

Let's assume that, like "dead," "victim" has a particular meaning which may not conform to the established one. We will, however, assume the meaning must be consistent.

It's obvious right away that "victim" cannot mean "person killed by the culprit," because if we accept that Shannon was the culprit neither she nor Kanon would be "victims." This leads me to believe "victim" means either apparent victim (as in the notion of a fakery plot or merely the intended scenario if it were a fakery plot) or merely "the people that I was just talking about," which would mean the prior defined set of Shannon/Kanon/Gohda/Kumasawa/Genji/Kinzo.
That's what I said. I didn't say it was a logic error, but that "victim" was used arbitrarily that is with the meaning of "apparent victim". It is easy to see where that leads.
I could write a murder closed room scenario with Jessica and George found inside. Where both are apparently victims, but only Jessica is really dead and George killed her and faked his death. Then before someone could say "the culprit is still inside" I'd pop a "only the victims were inside before the closed room was breached".
Of course this is just in addition to the already known "dead" problem, but this means "dead" isn't the only exception.

The other explanation is that Ronove was talking about a time much later after the discovery of the bodies (or in between). But implying an arbitrary time frame is as unfair as arbitrary definitions. The battle started with Virgilia reconstructing the crime scenes as they were found, and that's clear because she said Shannon was found inside the parlor. Ronove suddenly switching to another time frame without notice is just stupid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Can Umineko be considered a mystery at this point? I think it was a novel about fiction meta-levels some of which with a flair of mystery rather than a mystery novel itself.
This isn't about Umineko, this is about the single games, which are called "games" for a reason. They are supposed to mysteries and they are supposed to be solvable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I've read the description several times and never saw this. You'll have to provide me a citation.
Quote:
`"The first corpse discovered was Shannon.`@` She was found in the parlor on the first floor of the mansion.`@` The door and windows were locked, and a closed room was established."`\
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Old 2011-10-07, 08:15   Link #24909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
No matter now wether I think Umineko is fair ('cause I'd say compared to many other famous mysteries it is quite fair...sometimes even TOO fair)...is it really a inherent trait of any genre to be fair?!
Let's say you read the story as a take on the mystery-genre and rather use it's flaws and weakpoints to tell your story, among one is the power the author has over truth and fiction (I'm not saying that Ryûkishi did so deliberately)...is it then really a flaw to make a story unfair in certain instances?!
Though I'd still argue that apart from some quirky details most of Umineko is unbelievably fair.
Which famous mysteries do you think are less fair than Umineko?

As for fairness, if it weren't being portrayed as a game, I wouldn't care whether Umineko were fair or not. But when he started getting irritated that people weren't trying to figure out his mystery, I held him to the standards of producing a story which readers had a chance to figure out.

He got a number of the rules completely wrong. For example, Knox's 8th: "The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader." does not mean "The detective is guaranteed the ability to search crime scenes." or "The detective is guaranteed to find any clues.". It means that, if the detective does find a clue, he must describe it.
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Old 2011-10-07, 08:21   Link #24910
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What's the difference?
Aspiration vs. Experience. I think he's saying Meta-Beatrice is an ideal which Yasu never realized and which she was probably not capable of realizing. After all, she was about 980 years behind Beato.

He's making a case for a distinction between the two characters in the sense that the Beatrice that Battler struggles with is not merely Battler/Toya's conception of an aspect of Yasu, and which cannot be made into one once he actually is aware of Yasu's existence.

I think this is self-evident, actually, especially if the meta-narrative is reflective of his R-Prime reasoning. Meta-Beatrice is not, and cannot be, a creation of or identity utilized by Yasu, as Meta-Beatrice was not created by her.
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Old 2011-10-07, 08:52   Link #24911
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So today I learned that Ryukishi apparently stole his costume designs.

http://jin115.com/archives/51815889.html
He name-dropped some of those brands in the story when Gaap showed up, so I'm not sure what makes it so surprising now.
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Old 2011-10-07, 09:44   Link #24912
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Yeah I remember someone pointed out that "devilish pretty" was a spoof of "angelic pretty" as soon as EP4 was released. I didn't know Ryuukishi copied the design of their clothes but that's not surprising. What's surprising is the fact that he went as far as to copy the model's hairstyle...
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Old 2011-10-07, 11:19   Link #24913
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Some questions

Hello, I'm a bit lazy with reading all the hundreds of pages here. So thought I'd put out my theory and see your thoughts.

I have read almost nothing on the net so these theories are almost entirely my own.

I've watched all the translated episodes of the VN as well as a summary of the second half of EP8

Spoiler for Spoiler:
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Old 2011-10-07, 11:38   Link #24914
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Basically yes, thats what most had thought out the series, the problem is getting people to actually go along with the plans. Or just the small details like whether or not they willingly moved to a place before getting killed or if they're bodies where dragged there. The part where you got it wrong was Shannon's suicide in EP2, she's certainly dead and Battler saw right trough her head in that scene.
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Old 2011-10-07, 11:39   Link #24915
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Quote:
`"The first corpse discovered was Shannon.`@` She was found in the parlor on the first floor of the mansion.`@` The door and windows were locked, and a closed room was established."`\
Oh, that. That's talking about just the first room. For the 6 rooms, the first 3 got descriptions that their doors and windows were locked. The latter 3 didn't (apparently to speed things up because the reader got the gist by then). The latter 3 were the boiler room, honored guest room, and the chapel. The honored guest room has windows that were never mentioned. For all 3 of the last rooms, it's only implied that their windows and doors are locked; the boiler room is not special in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I'd also have been happy if R07 had left Beatrice alone instead of making her part of ShKanon and ultimately part of the role-play of some delusional person of unknown sex. It's like you take the greatest character of the game and turned her into something terribly lame. Which was rather sad, given that Beatrice was one of the main reasons I kept playing this game.
Beatrice is thoroughly one of the best parts, if not the best part, of Umineko. She was awesome the first time through, but going over episodes 1-4 again knowing what's truly behind her makes her even more compelling. She dominates in the meta-world, the world of illusions, but can't even show her face in the real world; she somehow manages to be firmly extant and completely illusory at the same time. It's really cool. And to know that she is actually the shadow of a real person, a very unassuming real person, makes her all the more interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
He got a number of the rules completely wrong. For example, Knox's 8th: "The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader." does not mean "The detective is guaranteed the ability to search crime scenes." or "The detective is guaranteed to find any clues.". It means that, if the detective does find a clue, he must describe it.
I think it's a mistake to assume that RK07 intended "detective authority" to be linked to Knox's 8th. "Detective authority", while unrealistic, was simply a silly way to streamline the inevitable success of the clue gathering process without having to supply narrative justifications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah I remember someone pointed out that "devilish pretty" was a spoof of "angelic pretty" as soon as EP4 was released. I didn't know Ryuukishi copied the design of their clothes but that's not surprising. What's surprising is the fact that he went as far as to copy the model's hairstyle...
Funny, because I don't like Gaap's design.
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Old 2011-10-07, 12:02   Link #24916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
He/she (the Shanon personality) wants revenge on Battler for breaking his promise, by killing his relatives and friends.
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
First arc:
1st twilight: Yasu, Genji, Kumasawa or Nanjo (either of them) poisons the victims. Then carries them to the storage shed. Yasu pretends to have been killed as well in the form of Shanon. Later she leaves the shed and shows up as Kanon.
Hideyoshi claims he sees Shannon. Why Hideyoshi makes that claim?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
4th twilight: Kanon (Yasu) pretends to have been murdered, Nanjo lies and says he died.
Jessica was with Nanjo when he treated Kanon. How come Jessica didn't notice a thing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
5th - 7th twilight: Yasu appears as Beatrice and tells Maria to turn around and sing. Then s/he either tells the servants to commit suicide or kill them him/herself. She calls Natsuhi and the others and leaves the room.
How could Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji be so condescending about a plan involving their own death?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
1st twilight
Solution 1: Yasu unlocks the chapel door before giving the key to Maria. After they find the victims Genji lies about the door being locked.
That's not just Genji, There's Kumasawa and Gohda too. Rosa also must have been the one who opened the door, she would have noticed if it was open already.
Why is Rosa covering the murderer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
3rd - 5th twilight: Kumasawa and Nanjo helps Shannon kill George and Ghoda. Shannon's death is possibly faked since they don't check her carefully.
This is actually the only murder case that ryuukishi explained in details. Shannon killed Gohda and George with a gun. She then killed herself by tying the gun to a weight. The weight then dragged the weapon behind the dresser. Which is why Shannon was found sat in front of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
6th - 7th twilight: The servants pretends that Kumasawa and Nanjo has died. Ghoda is threatened to play along. (That's why there's all the talk about wolves and sheep puzzles in that chapter.)
Later Kumasawa and Nanjo are killed by Genji.
Isn't it simplier if the usual culprit "Yasu" killed them before the 3rd - 5th twilight? I think that the less people you assume they are murderer the better it is.
Also how Gohda was threatened? Why he didn't tell the truth once in front of everyone?


Generally your reconstruction is the one that's most accepted and that was hinted by Will. However Will completely missed to explain "How" all these crimes could have been performed when it's obvious that they required the complicity of several people.
This is the hardest thing to explain.

A popular theory is that there was a fake murder conspiracy. So basically pretty much everyone except Battler enacted a serial murder scenario believing no one was going to really die, but then Yasu killed the victims for real once they've been isolated. This is hinted in EP5 and EP6 where the first twilight victims are clearly not dead when discovered but everyone say they are.

Quote:
the boiler room is not special in this regard.
It is. The boiler room doesn't have any window. The boiler room is underground.
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Old 2011-10-07, 12:04   Link #24917
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Hey everyone I read episode 1-7 and half of episode 8. Though I read it all in one go so maybe I missed something. Maybe someone can present me with their take on it.

Maybe I lack love?


Why did Battler do a complete 180 when he learned the truth?

Battler was pierced by a huge sword and seemingly died in episode 5. However he came back to life when he found the "truth". Then became a sorcerer in Beatrice's place.


Then Battler that came back to life somehow doesn't feel like Battler, first of all the kind of person Battler has shown to be:

-in episode one, we were introduced to Battler,as somehow who would never forgive the killing of his family. The whole reason why he accepted this game was to uncover who the hell would brutally murder his whole family and to prove that a witch didn't do it.

-in episode two, there was a huge conflict in Battler about the possibility that someone that he cares about is a insane murderer. To the extent that he broke down mentally and started crying.

-episode three, Battler cannot forgive the idea of toying with people even if they are just "chess pieces" that can be revived or replaced for their own selfish reasons.

-episode four, he realized that he cannot play around with Beatrice since he has a sister at home waiting for him.


So Battler is a highly empathic person who treasures people close to him and cannot forgive those who would toy with them. In addition that betrayal is something he severely dislikes like how his father remarried/cheated on his mother. However in episode 6, Battler keeps showing regret for Beatrice's sake that he couldn't find the truth earlier.Though Beatrice staged the murder of his family, toyed with them by making them go through gruesome murder scenario for her own selfish reasons.

Yet Battler doesn't show any conflicting emotions about Beatrice.


Even in episode 8, Bernkastel despite playing with his family's tragedies, having Ange ripped into meat pieces by imposing s cruel rule and when Bernkastel kidnaps Ange again is asked by Battler to join them as a friend. Didn't Battler slam Beatrice's head into a table in episode 2. Why is Battler so forgiving for Bernkastel all of the sudden?


As well that when he realizes the truth. Assuming the implied Shannon/Kannon/Beatrice is correct, shouldn't there be some conflict within Battler? That Battler might have to do some soul-searching about the sin he committed and how he might have to live up to it. How he feels about the horrible truth he wanted to avoid "someone close to me might be an insane criminal mastermind".

Shannon/Kannon/Beatrice/Yasu is certainly a insane criminal mastermind. Clearly mentally unstable with his multiple personalities, was obsessed with Battler and couldn't cope with reality at all as shown by living in his/her own dreamworld about magic and witches. More so exploited the innocence of Maria to enforce his/her delusions. Everything that person did in the end was for their own selfish reasons. Yet Battler doesn't seem to mind the person to the extent that he seems to marry Beatrice. Beatrice implied to be a piece that was Shannon/Kannon/Beatrice/Yasu which was elevated to become a witch thanks to Lambadelta, so they are pretty much the same person.


How can Battler really want to be around such a person to the extent that he would marry them? More so his unwavering acceptance of Berncastel despite her evil/cruelty. Did Battler die when the sword pierced him in episode 5 and the Battler afterwards is an illusion of him?


I just do not understand the direction that Ryukishi07 took with Battler's character. Anyone have an idea what went wrong with Battler's character?



I would put it in the Character discussion - Battler thread but it only anime related discussion. Anyway if this post is too long, there is no need to quote it.
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Old 2011-10-07, 12:23   Link #24918
Jan-Poo
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@goldendust

Yeah he made quite an U-turn, but to be honest he started from the beginning of EP5. We left Battler as a relentless killing machine who kept striking Beatrice with his blue wedges despite her being in terrible pain. He didn't care about the truth he just wanted to win the game.

EP5 starts with Battler suddenly empathizing with Beatrice, screaming at Bern for using reds hurting Beatrice when he just hurt her a lot more a while before. He refuses to play the game against Lambda because it was his game and Beatrice's game, despite the fact he was supposed to have yielded to Ange's request "stop fooling around, come back" in EP4.
Generally it's as if Bern's strategy in EP4 just lasted for a few rounds and then Battler reverted to his usual self or even worse.

Then again Battler did something incomprehensible in EP3 too. First he refuses to play against Beatrice because she's too cruel. Then he refuses to play against Beatrice because he's pissed against Eva who is being even crueler and he rather wants her as his opponent. WTF? The very reason he didn't want to play against Beatrice was the reason he wanted to play against Eva?

Anyway I think the main change in EP5 after Battler found the truth was because he was so stupid to think it's all been his fault.
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Old 2011-10-07, 12:36   Link #24919
Cao Ni Ma
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It depends on what the truth actually is though. I dont see how you could sympathize with someone that would murder your whole family in cold blood and actually find some sort of cruel joy out of it. This "Beatrice" is the one Battler hates in EP1-4. In EP5 Beatrice is completely different from the get go and Battler is lost in how he should act about her for most of the episode. Once he finds out the truth he switches sides.

In EP6 he wants the old Beatrice back, probably because he feels like he wanted to thank or ask for her forgiveness. Kinda like what Kinzo experiences in EP7 and probably before that as well.

So it comes down to this, If you think that Yasu is an actual murderer then Battler is quite irrational with his feelings for Beatrice. If he thinks that Beatrice was just a pitiful person that wrote some stories to vent his/her anger then its not that bad. If she actually did nothing and the image of Beatrice is something that was created to hide a painful truth then its even better.
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Old 2011-10-07, 12:37   Link #24920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kani View Post
Hello, I'm a bit lazy with reading all the hundreds of pages here. So thought I'd put out my theory and see your thoughts.

I have read almost nothing on the net so these theories are almost entirely my own.

I've watched all the translated episodes of the VN as well as a summary of the second half of EP8
EDIT: Gah, Jan-Poo beat me to it, but since I've already written it out I'll post anyway.

If all you have done is read through it once and not otherwise discussed it, then not bad.

I'm going to answer you outside of quote boxes because it's easier that way. Also, keep in mind that some people might disagree in some ways with the answers I'm giving you, although mostly they won't.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-10-07 at 12:47.
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