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Old 2011-10-11, 20:21   Link #61
.:Jason:.
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Is there a limit to how old/young Masters can be?
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Old 2011-10-11, 20:22   Link #62
alumnox
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Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
Question though, they made a big issue in F/SN about the fact that Shirou had zero magical capabilities, and yet it was so rare that he managed to summon a servant, however...

In F/Z I see multiple combatants with low or zero magical capabilities, isn't that strange?
Its not rare that Shirou could summon Saber in the FSN game since he managed to fulfill the minimum requirements to summon a servant.

You need to be choosen by the grail to be a participant and you need a magic circle that works for the invocation magic and that's it. You don't need anything else to summon a servant.

The magic circle was already on the floor of the shaft where he trained everyday.

The extra in the case of shirou was that he had inside his body the scabbard (avalon) inside his body so that worked as a relic and thats why the grail summoned saber.

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Originally Posted by .:Jason:. View Post
Is there a limit to how old/young Masters can be?
Its never been stated if there's a limit regarding age but since a master might be chosen as long as they can flow prana through a magic circuit that pretty much says that everyone has a chance.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Erm, what?

This is just plain wrong (except the HF bit). The Grail is not "purified" in Fate, and nor is it any more "destroyed" in UBW than it was in Zero. Only in HF is the Great Grail (which is what is really behind the wars, and supplies the prana to summon the servants) destroyed.
Remember that in the fate route shirou is eaten by angra manyu and he was already inside angra manyu when he projects avalon. In the game itself says:

The world changes completely as the darkness is destroyed by a golden light

Fate complete material vol 3 states that avalon is the ultimate magical item that transcends even magecraft (this means is even more powerful that the great grail itself in terms of magical mysteries) avalon creates a boundary field (similar to a reality marble just bigger) so powerful that its impossible for any kind of magic or physical force to overcome the effect of the field. The field connects the current reality where it was summoned with the land of the fairies and at that moment any magical or physical energy will cease to exist since that is not allowed in the domain of the fairies.

So in short, angra manyu's energy was purified after shirou is eaten by the dark matter. Lets remember that the dark matter its actually energy from the origin itself but corrupted by angra manyu. At the end the games says something around:

The black mud disappears and just the path remains, the holy grail.

And of course saber goes excalibur on the opened portal so this time she really gets it.

And in UBW its easier. In that reality the manifestation of the grail is not even complete (the event horizon is really weak) and there was no proper core to begin with reason why they used shinji. When tohsaka rescued shinji something similar to what happened in the very first summoning of the grail (1st grail war) happens and the grail becomes unstable because of the lack of a proper core. The difference between what happened then and in UBW is that the energy from the event horizon in the first place was very little so when archer attacks its hitting the part of the system that controls the link between the core and the energy flowing underground that's why the grail system goes for gilgamesh in the end, its trying to get the missing energy to complete itself but the portal closes after gilgamesh is devoured.

In short, archer messes up the grail system although not so badly as in the HF route.

Last edited by alumnox; 2011-10-11 at 21:42.
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Old 2011-10-11, 20:31   Link #63
GDB
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Originally Posted by .:Jason:. View Post
Is there a limit to how old/young Masters can be?
Zouken is hundreds of years old, and who knows what Caster qualifies as, so no to the old. As far as we know there's no youth limit either, but since the Grail choose "those who need it", a child likely wouldn't qualify.
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Old 2011-10-12, 01:39   Link #64
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Originally Posted by alumnox View Post
Its not rare that Shirou could summon Saber in the FSN game since he managed to fulfill the minimum requirements to summon a servant.

You need to be choosen by the grail to be a participant and you need a magic circle that works for the invocation magic and that's it. You don't need anything else to summon a servant.

The magic circle was already on the floor of the shaft where he trained everyday.

The extra in the case of shirou was that he had inside his body the scabbard (avalon) inside his body so that worked as a relic and thats why the grail summoned saber.


Its never been stated if there's a limit regarding age but since a master might be chosen as long as they can flow prana through a magic circuit that pretty much says that everyone has a chance.



Remember that in the fate route shirou is eaten by angra manyu and he was already inside angra manyu when he projects avalon. In the game itself says:

The world changes completely as the darkness is destroyed by a golden light

Fate complete material vol 3 states that avalon is the ultimate magical item that transcends even magecraft (this means is even more powerful that the great grail itself in terms of magical mysteries) avalon creates a boundary field (similar to a reality marble just bigger) so powerful that its impossible for any kind of magic or physical force to overcome the effect of the field. The field connects the current reality where it was summoned with the land of the fairies and at that moment any magical or physical energy will cease to exist since that is not allowed in the domain of the fairies.

So in short, angra manyu's energy was purified after shirou is eaten by the dark matter. Lets remember that the dark matter its actually energy from the origin itself but corrupted by angra manyu. At the end the games says something around:

The black mud disappears and just the path remains, the holy grail.

And of course saber goes excalibur on the opened portal so this time she really gets it.

And in UBW its easier. In that reality the manifestation of the grail is not even complete (the event horizon is really weak) and there was no proper core to begin with reason why they used shinji. When tohsaka rescued shinji something similar to what happened in the very first summoning of the grail (1st grail war) happens and the grail becomes unstable because of the lack of a proper core. The difference between what happened then and in UBW is that the energy from the event horizon in the first place was very little so when archer attacks its hitting the part of the system that controls the link between the core and the energy flowing underground that's why the grail system goes for gilgamesh in the end, its trying to get the missing energy to complete itself but the portal closes after gilgamesh is devoured.

In short, archer messes up the grail system although not so badly as in the HF route.
Errr avalon never purified angra manyu... In both the fate and the ubw routes, is saber/excalibur
who destros the holy grail,which is only the key to opening the great grail, now the great grail where angra manyu really is, its destroyed or sealed by a member of the clock tower in the fate and ubw routes..
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Old 2011-10-12, 04:24   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Tailong View Post
Errr avalon never purified angra manyu... In both the fate and the ubw routes, is saber/excalibur
who destros the holy grail,which is only the key to opening the great grail, now the great grail where angra manyu really is, its destroyed or sealed by a member of the clock tower in the fate and ubw routes..
Excalibur cant purify, although its a magic sword its not something possible for it. Excalibur magic works in what is called Divine Spirit thaumaturgy. That means its a really powerful magical item capable of releasing incredible amounts of prana at once and since its rank is set as a divine mystery is capable of inflict damage pretty much to anything except things in higher ranks like enkidu but not to purify things.

About avalon well I'm afraid is what the game says.


We can have our own likes or dislikes about it but avalon purified the dark matter which we know already what it is from where it comes and what means to be devoured for it so in my opinion the game its clear in this matter.

And of course as we know already Saber destroys the portal. Here is important to understand that the grail system is formed from several pieces that sadly share the same name "grail" but actually all of them are interdependent from each other, Ill explain more about it later.

Spoiler for scene:


In the UBW as I said the grail becomes unstable because of the lack of a proper core and archer damages the part of the system that links the energy running underground to the core while saber destroys what is left of the embryo the system was building.

Spoiler for scenes:


In this reality, Saber didn't attack the portal like in the fate route, in UBW since the main source of energy is destroyed by archer and saber the system goes for gilgamesh to try to keep himself working but its not possible as Gilgamesh says so himself.

Talking about the future in the fate route and UBW its hard because we need to speculate but lets give it a try.

Spoiler:


Event horizon: the moment at which the underground system gathers enough natural energy from the region to start the selection of masters also opens a connection with the swirl of root in order to access to the information about the heroes making possible the selection of servants.
This time frame was exactly every certain years I don't remember exactly how much but it was exactly the same time every time but Kiritsugu Emiya actions inside the underground system will change that time frame.
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Last edited by alumnox; 2011-10-12 at 05:12.
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Old 2011-10-12, 05:21   Link #66
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Destroying the mud doesn't mean it is purified one bit.
Purify would actually mean that Avalon removed the filfth and darkness of Angra Mainyu, which didn't happen. It "simply" obliterated the mud, nothing more nothing less.
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Old 2011-10-12, 06:23   Link #67
alumnox
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Destroying the mud doesn't mean it is purified one bit.
Purify would actually mean that Avalon removed the filfth and darkness of Angra Mainyu, which didn't happen. It "simply" obliterated the mud, nothing more nothing less.
As I said in my opinion the game is clear in saying that the dark matter was dispersed... we know already what it is from where it comes and what means to be devoured for it so I could just bring screens from the HF route that states all that information but I don't see what use will bring to emphasize what we already know, the dark matter is the only way angra manyu interacts withthis side and I would point to the fact of what happened during the bad end where Tohsaka is devoured by the dark matter to experience what Sakura went through and since the game says shirou experienced all the sins in the world I think its a fair assumption to think that he was as immerse as it was Rin. The difference ?. Avalon.

And in my defense Ill add just for the LOL EFFECT a little thing that is not SOLID EVIDENCE but I think it serves a little to support my idea and its the fact that the classic red color used to represent the corruption is absent in the final scenes after the dark matter is dispersed.
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Old 2011-10-12, 08:30   Link #68
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How many years pass between Holy Grail Wars? The subs say every 60 years but the math doesn't add up if the first was 200 years ago.
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Old 2011-10-12, 09:34   Link #69
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Originally Posted by .:Jason:. View Post
How many years pass between Holy Grail Wars? The subs say every 60 years but the math doesn't add up if the first was 200 years ago.
There are multiple Holy Grail Wars. The one in Fuyuki city started 200 years ago.
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Old 2011-10-12, 11:48   Link #70
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Originally Posted by .:Jason:. View Post
How many years pass between Holy Grail Wars? The subs say every 60 years but the math doesn't add up if the first was 200 years ago.
HGW happens every 60 years, which means the first war is 180 years ago.
I think 200 is just a round up number.
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Old 2011-10-12, 11:56   Link #71
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As I said in my opinion the game is clear in saying that the dark matter was dispersed... we know already what it is from where it comes and what means to be devoured for it so I could just bring screens from the HF route that states all that information but I don't see what use will bring to emphasize what we already know, the dark matter is the only way angra manyu interacts withthis side and I would point to the fact of what happened during the bad end where Tohsaka is devoured by the dark matter to experience what Sakura went through and since the game says shirou experienced all the sins in the world I think its a fair assumption to think that he was as immerse as it was Rin. The difference ?. Avalon.

And in my defense Ill add just for the LOL EFFECT a little thing that is not SOLID EVIDENCE but I think it serves a little to support my idea and its the fact that the classic red color used to represent the corruption is absent in the final scenes after the dark matter is dispersed.
"Dispersed" does not mean purified either. As Klashikari already stated, the dark matter was removed because of Avalon, not purified.
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Old 2011-10-12, 12:09   Link #72
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The grail war happens every sixty years, because thats the amount of time necessary for the holy grail to gather enough prana to support one. The 5th Grail War was different, because

Spoiler for Fate Zero:
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Old 2011-10-12, 13:52   Link #73
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HGW happens every 60 years, which means the first war is 180 years ago.
I think 200 is just a round up number.
But if it's every 60 years and this is the fourth one, the first one would have had to take place 240 years earlier, not 180. So that leaves the question of where 200 came from.
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Old 2011-10-12, 13:54   Link #74
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But if it's every 60 years and this is the fourth one, the first one would have had to take place 240 years earlier, not 180. So that leaves the question of where 200 came from.
They started counting after the first one was done not before.

1st 190 years ago
2th 130 years ago
3th 70 years ago
4th 10 years ago
5th 0 years ago
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Old 2011-10-12, 13:59   Link #75
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Oh, alright then. Thanks.
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Old 2011-10-12, 15:46   Link #76
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I still can't rationalize why the fifth war happens after a 10 year interval instead of 60 years.

I get that no one obtained the holy grail in the fourth war, but its energy was unleashed either way. And in the first three wars, no one obtained the grail either, right?
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Old 2011-10-12, 15:55   Link #77
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I still can't rationalize why the fifth war happens after a 10 year interval instead of 60 years.

I get that no one obtained the holy grail in the fourth war, but its energy was unleashed either way. And in the first three wars, no one obtained the grail either, right?
If this question is going to be answered with Fate/Hollow Ataraxia or Fate/Zero spoilers mark them correctly please.

It would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2011-10-12 at 16:57.
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Old 2011-10-12, 16:29   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
"Dispersed" does not mean purified either. As Klashikari already stated, the dark matter was removed because of Avalon, not purified.
As I said we could have our own personal likes or dislikes about it but the game (at least for me) is clear about the interaction between avalon and the dark matter.

Spoiler for FSN:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I still can't rationalize why the fifth war happens after a 10 year interval instead of 60 years.

I get that no one obtained the holy grail in the fourth war, but its energy was unleashed either way. And in the first three wars, no one obtained the grail either, right?
Careful the next answer contains a spoiler from fate zero.

Spoiler for FZ:
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Old 2011-10-12, 20:06   Link #79
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Originally Posted by alumnox View Post
So in short, angra manyu's energy was purified after shirou is eaten by the dark matter. Lets remember that the dark matter its actually energy from the origin itself but corrupted by angra manyu. At the end the games says something around:

The black mud disappears and just the path remains, the holy grail.

And of course saber goes excalibur on the opened portal so this time she really gets it.
Erm, no, that's not true.

What they had there was the lesser Grail. The Great Grail is underground, with no direct connection to the lesser Grail.

Quote:
And in UBW its easier. In that reality the manifestation of the grail is not even complete (the event horizon is really weak) and there was no proper core to begin with reason why they used shinji. When tohsaka rescued shinji something similar to what happened in the very first summoning of the grail (1st grail war) happens and the grail becomes unstable because of the lack of a proper core. The difference between what happened then and in UBW is that the energy from the event horizon in the first place was very little so when archer attacks its hitting the part of the system that controls the link between the core and the energy flowing underground that's why the grail system goes for gilgamesh in the end, its trying to get the missing energy to complete itself but the portal closes after gilgamesh is devoured.
Doesn't matter. The Great Grail is still around.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
"Dispersed" does not mean purified either. As Klashikari already stated, the dark matter was removed because of Avalon, not purified.
It's irrelevant anyway, because what they were dealing with was the lesser Grail. The Great Grail is what is corrupted, and what actually runs the wars, the lesser Grail is just how the energy is collected from the dead servants.

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Originally Posted by alumnox View Post
The reason why the next grail happens sooner was Kiritsugu Emiya doing.
No, it wasn't. The two things you posted have absolutely nothing to do with the timing of the next Grail War. The Great Grail sits there and keeps collecting prana from the air, and then when it's full (which takes 60 years), it signals the next war. It's never explicitly stated why the fifth war happened so soon after the fourth, but most likely there was prana left in the lesser Grail for some reason.
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Old 2011-10-12, 23:05   Link #80
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I love your posts guys I just sign up to ask alumnox if it's ok to copy them for my blog I’ll send you the address in private message and please could you explain more about the grail thingy. I found information about it but I’m confused about the terminology.
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