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Old 2011-10-13, 00:05   Link #81
Rethice
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Everyone keeps on telling alumnox he's wrong, but he's the only one providing evidence of his point, and lots of it...

Does anyone have proof that it was Excalibur and not Avalon that purified the grail, other than just saying he's wrong?
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Old 2011-10-13, 01:52   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
Everyone keeps on telling alumnox he's wrong, but he's the only one providing evidence of his point, and lots of it...

Does anyone have proof that it was Excalibur and not Avalon that purified the grail, other than just saying he's wrong?
If I remember correctly it's in Fate/Character Material but if not it's somewhere else in Fate/Complete Material - after the fifth war the grail is just dormant again. Ten years after the fifth Holy Grail War, Waver Velvet comes back to Fuyuki and works with Rin to dismantle the grail. Apparently the event was as intense as a holy grail war, even though it was not. Oh, and when Waver comes back he has the title of Lord El-Melloi the second
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Old 2011-10-13, 02:26   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
Everyone keeps on telling alumnox he's wrong, but he's the only one providing evidence of his point, and lots of it...

Does anyone have proof that it was Excalibur and not Avalon that purified the grail, other than just saying he's wrong?
As far as I'm aware the grail wasn't purified at all. All that happened was Saber destroyed the Lesser Grail (again...) with Excalibur. As Cherry Lover said, the Great Grail is what's actually corrupted, and it doesn't even enter the story until Heaven's Feel.

In Fate, Saber destroys the lesser grail with Excalibur. In UBW, the Lesser Grail collapses in on itself because it doesn't have a physical vessel.
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Old 2011-10-13, 05:05   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alumnox View Post
As I said we could have our own personal likes or dislikes about it but the game (at least for me) is clear about the interaction between avalon and the dark matter.

Spoiler for FSN:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
Everyone keeps on telling alumnox he's wrong, but he's the only one providing evidence of his point, and lots of it...

Does anyone have proof that it was Excalibur and not Avalon that purified the grail, other than just saying he's wrong?
That doesn't even count as evidence whatsoever.
First and foremost: the VN insist on -destroyed- grail (which is, as cherry lover already explained, the lesser holy grail, not the Great Grail).
Purify would mean its truest sense: the grail would have been no longer tainted and be just a pure prana artifact, which would be the appropriate wish granting machine.
Thus the question: if Shirou "really" purified it, why would he destroy it afterwards? Why would Waver and Rin go as far as dealing with the -greater holy grail- later?

The lesser grail is just a catalyst that was accumulating the Heroic Spirits in order to allow itself to materialize fully, in order to open wide the connection with the Greater Grail which is below the Mount Enzou
Spoiler for End of Fate Zero:

This is the very reason why the Mud was still sipping out, which generated that incident at Fuyuki. This is also the reason why Illiya had to shut the door herself in Heaven's Feel.
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Old 2011-10-13, 06:17   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
Everyone keeps on telling alumnox he's wrong, but he's the only one providing evidence of his point, and lots of it...

Does anyone have proof that it was Excalibur and not Avalon that purified the grail, other than just saying he's wrong?
He's not really posting concrete evidence. He's posting circumstantial evidence based off his own conjecture about how the wording is being used, which is wrong. Right off the bat, the whole "Avalon purified the grail" thing is crap, since even after being projected, there's still plenty of it spewing out of the grail. Kotomine even tries using it to attack Shirou again. So even if it did purify what was surrounding Shirou, rather than merely destroying it (which is what it did, since it literally ceased to exist, rather than just becoming a gooey source of light), that was but a mere fraction of the whole.
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Old 2011-10-13, 07:38   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That doesn't even count as evidence whatsoever.
First and foremost: the VN insist on -destroyed- grail (which is, as cherry lover already explained, the lesser holy grail, not the Great Grail).
Purify would mean its truest sense: the grail would have been no longer tainted and be just a pure prana artifact, which would be the appropriate wish granting machine.
Thus the question: if Shirou "really" purified it, why would he destroy it afterwards? Why would Waver and Rin go as far as dealing with the -greater holy grail- later?

The lesser grail is just a catalyst that was accumulating the Heroic Spirits in order to allow itself to materialize fully, in order to open wide the connection with the Greater Grail which is below the Mount Enzou.

This is the very reason why the Mud was still sipping out, which generated that incident at Fuyuki. This is also the reason why Illiya had to shut the door herself in Heaven's Feel.
Is this a spoiler or do you mean Shirou?
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Old 2011-10-13, 14:01   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
No, it wasn't. The two things you posted have absolutely nothing to do with the timing of the next Grail War.
Last page, epilogue Five years later right from the Fate zero novel.

Spoiler for FZ:

Kiritsugu playing with the leylines of the underground system is what messes things up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Spoiler for .:

This is the very reason why the Mud was still sipping out, which generated that incident at Fuyuki. This is also the reason why Illiya had to shut the door herself in Heaven's Feel.
Ehmmm you are aware that what happens in the 3 routes of Fate stay night are not consecutive right ? They are 3 different possible endings to a unique stream line of events.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-10-13 at 17:29. Reason: except the infodump had nothing to do with the current discussion at hand. This is not a wiki
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Old 2011-10-13, 14:24   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alumnox View Post
Kiritsugu playing with the leylines of the underground system is what messes things up.
Kiritsugu didn't affect the mount Enzou itself. He made sure a convergence of leylines would make a bump, that will generate an earthquake towards the said Mount. In fact, he carefully planned that in order to PREVENT the next Holy Grail War. That's why the time frame he planned was precisely 40 years -the latest- which would prevent the fifth war in theory.
The prana wasn't converging to the location of the Great Grail.
Quote:
Ehmmm you are aware that what happens in the 3 routes of Fate stay night are not consecutive right ? They are 3 different possible endings to a unique stream line of events.
You were the one bringing the fact that "Avalon purified the grail", and I countered it with the context at hand. It is only in fate route that Shirou traced Avalon against the Grail, and in that route, he still destroyed the grail afterwards with Saber: heck, as already mentioned, Kotomine was still attacking him with the grail mud after Shirou managed to get the hell out of the mud. You can't call that purify at all. It can't be purified, period.

In the general perspective as already explained: In both Fate and UBW, Saber destroyed the vessel of the Lesser Grail, preventing the Greater Grail to spill its content to the world.
In HF, due to the number of irregularities (Zouken's doing, obviously), the Greater Grail was way much more of a threat, hence the intervention of Illysvael.

As explained already, what the characters are mainly dealing with is the -lesser- grail.
And by no means it was purified at all. Merely destroyed.

And I seriously don't think it is the correct thread to make a info dump where it doesn't connect Z and SN at all. It would actually fit the Game spoilers thread of SN. No need to clutter it more than necessary, and I did say overdone details are unwelcome.
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Old 2011-10-13, 15:36   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And I seriously don't think it is the correct thread to make a info dump where it doesn't connect Z and SN at all. It would actually fit the Game spoilers thread of SN. No need to clutter it more than necessary, and I did say overdone details are unwelcome.
Not that I want to be banned. I don't know if it is possible to quote moderators but in my humble opinion I think alumnox post connects more dots in the series than any other. And I apologize to anyone that think my questions were for what I understand meaningless information.
Alumnox I thank you a lot for taking the time to answer and to let me copy your posts.
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One more question. I don't get it. Why the church lets them do what ever they want. As far as I remember in Fate Stay Night they send someone later and now in fate zero they will supervise the war. Its a different church in Fate Stay Night or how that works.
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Old 2011-10-13, 15:51   Link #90
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The idea is to use this thread to connect both F/Z and SN, sort of a discussion thread so people can relate both War. It isn't supposed to expand and go in details with everything (otherwise, it will sidetrack way too much the objective of it): the ideal thread would be, as I mentioned, the Game spoiler thread for FSN (which would be the one to expand information about the universe of Fate in general, although the wiki is already doing the job quite well, based on objective and detailed grounds).

Anyway, as for the Church, its goal is the same in both wars: The church has no real interest in the grail, since it isn't the true "Holy Grail", but since it is still a powerful artifact, there is a necessity to supervise the said event, otherwise things would go out of hand.
Since the Association would be criticized as too partial in some cases, the former asked the cooperation of the Church in that case.

Because of Kirei's accomplishment and the fact he is the son of Risei, he was appointed as the Fifth War supervisor. Of course, you bet it was the worst decision possible, but they had no idea what Kirei actually did in the fourth war.
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Old 2011-10-13, 16:19   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
Everyone keeps on telling alumnox he's wrong, but he's the only one providing evidence of his point, and lots of it...
What "evidence"? Everything he's saying is complete and utter bullshit.

On the other hand, I have plenty of evidence, like the entire HF route of the game....

Quote:
Does anyone have proof that it was Excalibur and not Avalon that purified the grail, other than just saying he's wrong?
Neither of them purified the fucking Grail. The Grail was not "purified" at all. Saber destroys the lesser Grail in Fate and UBW using Excalibur, she purifies nothing. The true source of the power is the Great Grail, which is in a cavern underneath the temple, which no-one even thinks about in the first two routes.

Canonically, according to the Side Material books, Waver Velvet disables the Great Grail six months later, and it is finally dismantled ten years later after some kind of war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alumnox View Post
Last page, epilogue Five years later right from the Fate zero novel.

Spoiler for FZ:

Kiritsugu playing with the leylines of the underground system is what messes things up.
Erm, what?

Where in that passage does it even imply that what he did is responsible for the earlier Grail War? Indeed, the fact that he acted on the assumption that the Grail War would happen 60 years later (as expected) is strong evidence against that....


Quote:
Ehmmm you are aware that what happens in the 3 routes of Fate stay night are not consecutive right ? They are 3 different possible endings to a unique stream line of events.
Quote:
Very long and surprisingly accurate info-dump.
Wait, you know all of this and you still think that Saber actually destroyed/purified the Grail in Fate and UBW? How the hell did you come to that conclusion?

And, no, AM is not inside the "swirl of root". If it were, then the whole world would be completely fucked, because AM would corrupt everything. It is inside the Great Grail, hence what happens towards the end of HF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cecil View Post
Not that I want to be banned. I don't know if it is possible to quote moderators but in my humble opinion I think alumnox post connects more dots in the series than any other. And I apologize to anyone that think my questions were for what I understand meaningless information.
Alumnox I thank you a lot for taking the time to answer and to let me copy your posts.
-------------------------------------------------------------
One more question. I don't get it. Why the church lets them do what ever they want. As far as I remember in Fate Stay Night they send someone later and now in fate zero they will supervise the war. Its a different church in Fate Stay Night or how that works.
Why wouldn't it be OK to argue with a moderator?
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Old 2011-10-13, 17:13   Link #92
chaos_alfa
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Thanks for all the unmarked spoilers -_-

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

It seems I will have to ignore the whole Fate/ Series board if I don't want to get spoiled

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2011-10-13 at 17:23.
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Old 2011-10-13, 17:19   Link #93
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The thread guidelines were clear:
Quote:
It has to be noted that due to the nature of the topic, this will severely spoil you for either Fate/Zero and/or Fate/Stay Night. So please use your own discretion if you want to learn more about the various connections (recurrent characters, events, details, noble phantasm etc) between the 2 franchise.
spoiler tags were used only as courtsery in this thread, but they are by no mean necessary.

As for the points you have made, if you don't have the full picture of it, they are pretty much "harmless".
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Old 2011-10-13, 17:22   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The thread guidelines were clear:

spoiler tags were used only has courtsery in this thread, but they are by no mean necessary.

As for the points you have made, if you don't have the full picture of it, they are pretty much "harmless".
I thought it meant you would get spoiled on the past episodes of Fate/Zero and not the future ones.
In hindsight, how the hell did I come up with that conclusion...

*feels very stupid, jumps of a building*

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2011-10-13 at 17:32.
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Old 2011-10-13, 17:59   Link #95
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None of what I said there is a spoiler for Zero anyway....
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Old 2011-10-13, 18:20   Link #96
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None of what I said there is a spoiler for Zero anyway....
No, you didn't spoil anything. Only the alumnox, Klashikari and some other people on the board spoiled somethings.
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Old 2011-10-13, 18:36   Link #97
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Well, if you're getting spoilered by a mod, then you should probably consider carefully whether you've read the thread rules properly....
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Old 2011-10-13, 18:53   Link #98
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Well, if you're getting spoilered by a mod, then you should probably consider carefully whether you've read the thread rules properly....
What do you mean? He only spoiled something accidentlly. If you look at one of my post above I ask if what he said is a spoiler.

And like I said earlier I interpreted the OP wrong.

But this is getting off-topic. Lets talk about something more interesting.
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Old 2011-10-15, 14:20   Link #99
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Just leave a note: Since the current question was threading way too much on the bigger and deeper picture (nature of the grail etc), I've moved the posts in the spoiler game thread.

I will also explain and update the guidelines of this thread once again: the sole purpose of this thread is to explain the many connections between Zero and Stay night which were not really clear for some people. This is of course leading to spoilers and whatnot (why some characters from 1 franchise didn't appear on the other and/or acted differently, for example).
However, this is not supposed to be a wiki/full spoiler thread, where "anything and everything" is explained (that is basically the spoiler game thread).

This is basically a very niche and specific thread. A very quick Q&A for anything bridging both franchise. It is -not- supposed to clarify the whole fateverse/nasuverse at all.
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Old 2011-10-15, 17:16   Link #100
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Zero takes place in the 90s and Stay Night in the early 2000s, right? Do we have exact years for each? Trying to figure it out for fanfic/roleplay purposes and info on what year each takes place in would be extremely helpful.
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