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Old 2011-09-22, 21:10   Link #1881
Staywithmeunlikely
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Ignore Roloko vi Britannia. They're just being a troll.
Shirley was the only female in the series that didn't annoy me. She was the only one that wasn't either completely overdone or a tool.
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Old 2011-09-23, 10:20   Link #1882
Tactics
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Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
There's a general agreement that both are tragic characters. Shirley's death, while ultimately sad and heroic, served primarily to advance the plot. Nothing more.
Heroic ?

Err--- For someone who throwing herself even after receiving Suzaku advice,
An advice come from someone which is she believed as her last defense line in this world full of lies, and choose her father killer just because he saved her right when she's trying to commit suicide ...

It's far from heroic.

Thanks to Lelouch tears-- I guess ...
Make it quite sad because it's rare for Lelouch to shed tears even when he presumed Nunnally is died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staywithmeunlikely View Post
Ignore Roloko vi Britannia. They're just being a troll.
Shirley was the only female in the series that didn't annoy me. She was the only one that wasn't either completely overdone or a tool.
She's overdone by her own point of view as it's served her role as the closest war victim to both Lelouch and Suzaku.

The moment she chose Lelouch over Suzaku advices, her own experiences, and her valuation for her family.
It's clearly a fact that she's completely overdone by her own mindset. Not even a heroic act based on a power of love.

Spoiler for Personal Comment:
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Old 2011-09-23, 11:09   Link #1883
lightsenshi
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Heroic ?

Err--- For someone who throwing herself even after receiving Suzaku advice,
An advice come from someone which is she believed as her last defense line in this world full of lies, and choose her father killer just because he saved her right when she's trying to commit suicide ...

It's far from heroic.
If you don't believe that laying your life on the line for someone you love isn't heroic, what would you call it?
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Old 2011-09-23, 11:17   Link #1884
Staywithmeunlikely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Heroic ?

Err--- For someone who throwing herself even after receiving Suzaku advice,
An advice come from someone which is she believed as her last defense line in this world full of lies, and choose her father killer just because he saved her right when she's trying to commit suicide ...

It's far from heroic.

Thanks to Lelouch tears-- I guess ...
Make it quite sad because it's rare for Lelouch to shed tears even when he presumed Nunnally is died.

She's overdone by her own point of view as it's served her role as the closest war victim to both Lelouch and Suzaku.

The moment she chose Lelouch over Suzaku advices, her own experiences, and her valuation for her family.
It's clearly a fact that she's completely overdone by her own mindset. Not even a heroic act based on a power of love.

Spoiler for Personal Comment:
I meant overdone in a completely different way. I meant C.C. who EVERYONE was supposed to pity. And Kallen who was a complete tool.
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Old 2011-09-24, 09:57   Link #1885
Tactics
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Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
If you don't believe that laying your life on the line for someone you love isn't heroic, what would you call it?
Now--- how about this logic:

There's a dangerous road.
A is in other side of road while B and C is in another side.

C is asking for B advice as C need a guidance.
B gave advice to C-- that C shouldn't crossing the road because it's dangerous.

A is C love interest, and C chose to crossing the road to chase her love interest
Ignoring B advice, ended up as a lifeless body.

By that logic---
Tell me for what reason I should say her death is a heroic one.
Is it really something hero-ic ?

If there's someone saying Shirley have a meaningful death, her death is cruel, she is a good girl that haven't overdone or even act as a tool, and everything good so it even need a wall of text. I'm already bored with that, as I already experienced that kind of pleasure in another community as well. If there's need to be continued in a long-term discussion, I'd like to quote my friend as a simplified form for my answer :

Honestly, I didn't find anything tragic about her death.
To chose your love interest over everything is not something to be proud.
Look at her last words. It's not something wonderful-- it's something obsessive.
I didn't want to ended up dying as a hopeless person like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Staywithmeunlikely View Post
I meant overdone in a completely different way. I meant C.C. who EVERYONE was supposed to pity. And Kallen who was a complete tool.
I'm completely forgot your username, avatar, and signature .....
Sorry for asking such question like that---

Spoiler for For Your Information:
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Old 2011-09-24, 10:59   Link #1886
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post

Honestly, I didn't find anything tragic about her death.
To chose your love interest over everything is not something to be proud.
Look at her last words. It's not something wonderful-- it's something obsessive.
I didn't want to ended up dying as a hopeless person like that.
I didn't like Shirley's death speech myself. But it wasn't about obsession, about Shirley's own self. What Shirley wanted to do was to tell Lelouch that he wasn't alone; that she'd be beside him; that it'd be alright. In the context of her death scene, she was talking about reincarnation, which she was actually correct about due to the world of C.

As for why Shirley actually tried/wanted to help Lelouch, though, it's surely an amazing love. If you can bother to find the time to defend Kallen or C.C., then you should try looking deeper into the show to find the meaning of Shirley's character. Otherwise, your proclamations of how "deep" the other two are are just simple and subjective opinions.

The reason Shirley decided to help Lelouch, just so you know, was not "I'm in love with him". Shirley's memories had been completely messed up, multiple times; it was not past feelings that made her act that way. What Shirley actually did was see through Lelouch's mask (his civilian one and his mask of zero) and understand that, since he had started to fight, Lelouch became all alone in the world. Shirley chased after Lelouch so he could understand "he is not alone anymore".

So when Shirley got shot, even then she tried to tell him "because I will be reincarnated, you won't be alone anymore". She tried to give Lelouch peace and trust and a fundamental happiness. What C.C. asked from Lelouch was death or her own happiness. While similarly Kallen asked for hope from Lelouch in return for her loyalty and respect. Shirley was the only character who did not need something from Lelouch, but wanted to give him hope, give him happiness. That is why her death was tragic: because after her death, any chance of Lelouch having an ending where he himself could be happy was practically gone.

Seriously, even if the Code Geass forum is pretty dead by now, you should understand that there was a pretty significant force of Shirley supporters here. And that's justified, because Shirley was a great and meaningful supporting character. Don't try to underplay her value in her own character thread, because to be honest, the shallow opinions of disrespectful Kallen and C.C. (or Rolo) fans have gotten boring too.
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Old 2011-09-26, 05:18   Link #1887
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That, and the reason why Rolo killed her? She uttered the name he despised most: Nunnally.
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Old 2011-10-04, 05:07   Link #1888
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She should be alive
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Old 2011-10-17, 10:51   Link #1889
Tactics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I didn't like Shirley's death speech myself. But it wasn't about obsession, about Shirley's own self. What Shirley wanted to do was to tell Lelouch that he wasn't alone; that she'd be beside him; that it'd be alright. In the context of her death scene, she was talking about reincarnation, which she was actually correct about due to the world of C.

As for why Shirley actually tried/wanted to help Lelouch, though, it's surely an amazing love. If you can bother to find the time to defend Kallen or C.C., then you should try looking deeper into the show to find the meaning of Shirley's character. Otherwise, your proclamations of how "deep" the other two are are just simple and subjective opinions.

The reason Shirley decided to help Lelouch, just so you know, was not "I'm in love with him". Shirley's memories had been completely messed up, multiple times; it was not past feelings that made her act that way. What Shirley actually did was see through Lelouch's mask (his civilian one and his mask of zero) and understand that, since he had started to fight, Lelouch became all alone in the world. Shirley chased after Lelouch so he could understand "he is not alone anymore".

So when Shirley got shot, even then she tried to tell him "because I will be reincarnated, you won't be alone anymore". She tried to give Lelouch peace and trust and a fundamental happiness. What C.C. asked from Lelouch was death or her own happiness. While similarly Kallen asked for hope from Lelouch in return for her loyalty and respect. Shirley was the only character who did not need something from Lelouch, but wanted to give him hope, give him happiness. That is why her death was tragic: because after her death, any chance of Lelouch having an ending where he himself could be happy was practically gone.

Seriously, even if the Code Geass forum is pretty dead by now, you should understand that there was a pretty significant force of Shirley supporters here. And that's justified, because Shirley was a great and meaningful supporting character. Don't try to underplay her value in her own character thread, because to be honest, the shallow opinions of disrespectful Kallen and C.C. (or Rolo) fans have gotten boring too.
Now you contradicting your favorite character by yourself.

Shirley need Lelouch to be kind to her.
She thought by throwing herself to the battlefield, she could get that kind of love she needed.
Why she said that she will always love him ? To ensure she got a place in his heart.

This isn't really necessary, I guess.
FYI--- I've seen how Shirley-like girl ended up in real life during my trip with my relatives.
It's not a really good and beautiful experiences like how you imagined Shirley would ended up with Lelouch.

Kallen did asked Lelouch to be Zero.
But look at her action afterwards. She's trying to take the mask by herself.
Look at her reaction when Lelouch guided the submarine, she really didn't expecting Lelouch to return.
If she's that kind of girl who always clinging to him, she must be try to commit suicide already.

You surely twisted the fact ....
I've already met Kallen-like girl in real life also.
And that kind of girl really didn't matched your description of always looking for hopes as a return for her devotion.

Some message from my friend :

Spoiler for :
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Old 2011-10-17, 15:24   Link #1890
Sol Falling
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Heh. More of this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Now you contradicting your favorite character by yourself.

Shirley need Lelouch to be kind to her.
She thought by throwing herself to the battlefield, she could get that kind of love she needed.
Why she said that she will always love him ? To ensure she got a place in his heart.
This is hardly true. The only time when Shirley asked Lelouch to be kind to her was during her weak time just after her father died. Don't tell me I'm contradicting my favourite character in my interpretations, when I've spent hundreds of posts in these forums defending her against much more convincing posters than yourself.

Quote:
This isn't really necessary, I guess.
FYI--- I've seen how Shirley-like girl ended up in real life during my trip with my relatives.
It's not a really good and beautiful experiences like how you imagined Shirley would ended up with Lelouch.
You hardly seem to understand Shirley as a character, so it's not like I have any reason to take your judgement of a "Shirley-like girl" seriously.

Quote:
Kallen did asked Lelouch to be Zero.
But look at her action afterwards. She's trying to take the mask by herself.
Look at her reaction when Lelouch guided the submarine, she really didn't expecting Lelouch to return.
If she's that kind of girl who always clinging to him, she must be try to commit suicide already.

You surely twisted the fact ....
I've already met Kallen-like girl in real life also.
And that kind of girl really didn't matched your description of always looking for hopes as a return for her devotion.
I'm not talking about Kallen being willing to fight on by herself. The point is that she only loves/believes in Lelouch so long as he is providing hope for her. Like you said, Kallen gave up on Lelouch and thought about taking up Zero's mask herself after Lelouch broke down over Nunally rejecting him. She also stepped away from him when Lelouch tricked her into thinking he'd simply used her during the Black Knight's betrayal. And finally Kallen faught against Lelouch during Zero: Requiem. The point is, Kallen only takes hope from Lelouch, and doesn't try to give him any hope in return. The world/Japan's happiness is more important to Kallen than Lelouch's own happiness. She follows Lelouch, but never guides him. Kallen's love for Lelouch is based on Lelouch being a kind and righteous hero. She has almost zero knowledge of Lelouch as a lost, abandoned or suffering teenaged boy.

Quote:
Some message from my friend :

Ask him/her this question:

For what reason, Shirley loves Lelouch ?

Just answer that question without twisting the fact.
That's why I think Shirley is hopeless for her judgement to protect Lelouch.
As she can't decided which is better for herself.

If I need to be soft-- Shirley is just a copy of Fllay Allster with innocent looks.
Live only to ensure main character got enough pain in his life.
If it come into love it's also the same. The only good thing from her is her tragedy.

Don't badmouthing or twisting the value of Kallen's devotion.
She's much more better character compared to C.C and Shirley.
The difference between them is already beyond heaven and earth.

Don't be biased just because she's your favorite character.
The fact that you have to ask this question, or think you have any point in making it, shows just how much you don't understand Shirley. The reason Shirley loves Lelouch is because she believes she can help him. Because she thinks that Lelouch is lonely, or suffering, and because she wants to make him smile. Remember that at first, before the start of the series, Shirley thought Lelouch was stuck up and unlikeable. Then she saw that he actually had a kind heart when he helped out some old folks in an automobile accident. However, even after the old folks had been helped and they were thanking him, Lelouch didn't smile. Shirley's love for Lelouch arise from these same feelings every time. Shirley knows that Lelouch is actually very kind, really smart, and really values his friendships. However, what she sees is Lelouch holding back, not being serious in his studies, and fighting against others. That's why she constantly thought about him, wanted to help him, and fell in love with his true self. Even after she finds out that Lelouch is a terrorist and responsible for her father's death, Shirley is still able to eventually see Lelouch's true self which cares for others and is extremely regretful for the deaths he's caused, and thus forgive him. The reason Shirley fell in love with Lelouch is the very simple factor of the goodness in Lelouch's heart. Because she was the one character who was always willing to see that even when no one else was able to, she was the key to giving Lelouch a place in the world for his very own happiness (and why, when Shirley died, any dream of Lelouch's for returning to Ashford realistically died as well). No one else understood just how truly kind and wishing for good in the world Lelouch was more than Shirley did. No one else firmly decided and stuck through with the decision to never abandon him. Shirley was the one and only character who fully loved Lelouch for Lelouch. That is why, Shirley's love was absolutely one of the most powerful and genuinely moving things about this show.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-10-17 at 15:38.
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Old 2011-10-19, 20:10   Link #1891
ginran
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Honestly, what this seems like to me more and more on this thread recently is that we aren't allowed to have our own opinions about Shirley without being told they are wrong. I don't mean to be rude...but I really can't understand why people feel the need to come to this thread for a character they dislike so much just to tell us why we shouldn't like her/her with Lelouch. :/ You can have your own opinions, but there really isn't anything to be gained out of telling us our views on the character and her importance to the story/Lelouch aren’t right in a way that makes her seem like one of the most awful creations in anime. All this seems like is "Shirley was not a nice girl, she was nowhere near as good a character as the rest of the cast, she didn't have a genuine love for Lelouch, etc." Personally, I don't go onto the Kallen thread looking to shoot down people's thoughts or argue her place in the story. I may have some unpopular views on shipping her, but I try to be as respectful as possible. (Only using that thread since she was the last character compared to Shirley in this conversation, I don't have any problems with her.)

Sol stated exactly what Shirley's love for Lelouch was, and it was presented that way in the show. Actually there was an episode where they showed a bit of where/when her feelings started to develop and what those feelings were/became. I won't comment on any other characters love for him to avoid shipping wars, but I can say Shirley's were 100% pure, and I think the writers tried to make that as clear as possible.
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Old 2011-10-20, 05:07   Link #1892
rinichan
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shirley is like a school girl who has a crush on the popular guy, that's Shirley for me. His reasons for loving Lelouch just the same with the other school girl but the difference is, it started when Lelouch had that good boy act in front of everyone.
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Old 2011-10-20, 07:55   Link #1893
Roloko vi Britannia
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Originally Posted by Staywithmeunlikely View Post
Ignore Roloko vi Britannia. They're just being a troll.
Shirley was the only female in the series that didn't annoy me. She was the only one that wasn't either completely overdone or a tool.
I'm not a troll I'm just stating facts bro. Shirley was a pathetic character.
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Old 2011-10-20, 10:27   Link #1894
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia View Post
I'm not a troll I'm just stating facts bro. Shirley was a pathetic character.
Must be nice being able to live in a world where personal delusions are able to be taken as "facts". Heh, I guess there's a reason why Rolo is your favourite character.
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Old 2011-10-20, 10:54   Link #1895
Yamiken
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People, people, calm it, jeez. Surely we can all come here and be civil whilst expressing and debating our opinions, without resorting to cheap shots like calling a character "pathetic" or "delusional"? This discussion would actually be pretty interesting if it weren't for all involved seemingly taking it as a personal affront that others don't share their opinion on Shirley, the nature of her love, whether she deserved Lelouch, whatever. That goes for both sides from what I've seen. I know I'm just some random newbie so maybe my word doesn't count for very much, but please, can we all just cool our heads a little?

Anyway, on-topic: my own opinion on Shirley? She's alright. I never hated her or anything, and she facilitated some decent drama during the first half of the Mao arc, but she was never a favourite of mine either. Her death really got to me with its tragedy, though; both the the tragedy in of itself, and the tragedy of the effect it had on Lelouch; as others have rightly noted, it's entirely probable that the Zero Requiem never would have happened, at least not in the form it did, if Shirley had remained alive. As it is, the trauma of losing her and then Nunnally was too much for him, and he only really had C.C. in the end to comfort him over it - which, well, isn't really her strongest point, much as I like her. Shirley may well have been able to talk him out of being quite so suicidal. Or maybe not, but it's still an interesting train of thought.

As far as shipping goes, I'm of the Lelouch/harem persuasion, so obviously Shirley gets a look in there! ... as far as pairings go, though, I do prefer Lelouch/C.C., then Lelouch/Kallen. Sorry Shirley fans. Feel free to try to change my mind if you want... in a civilised, polite manner, of course.
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Old 2011-10-20, 13:33   Link #1896
ginran
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People, people, calm it, jeez. Surely we can all come here and be civil whilst expressing and debating our opinions, without resorting to cheap shots like calling a character "pathetic" or "delusional"? This discussion would actually be pretty interesting if it weren't for all involved seemingly taking it as a personal affront that others don't share their opinion on Shirley, the nature of her love, whether she deserved Lelouch, whatever. That goes for both sides from what I've seen. I know I'm just some random newbie so maybe my word doesn't count for very much, but please, can we all just cool our heads a little?
This is what I was getting at. Sorry if I didn't present it in a way that sounded calm, I didn't mean to come across as attacking anyone. I don't mind when people have opinions that conflict with mine. I don't expect everyone to be exactly the same and share the same thoughts. But there are better ways of sharing opinions than to just state them as if they are fact in a negative way, especially when you know there are people that feel strongly against those thoughts. Being considerate of other people's thoughts is not the same thing as being restricted from sharing, its just more polite and appropriate for public conversation.

Thank you for sharing Yamiken, its nice to see an open minded approach, even if you didn't love the character. Your train of thought on if Shirley had lived is a pretty popular one for a lot of fans. Personally, I think she would have kept him from the suicidal path he took in the end. As far as shipping goes, you are free to whatever you enjoy. My preference is Lelouch/Shirley, but in a non-romantic way I found his relationship with C.C to be pretty amazing as they balanced each other well acting like partners in crime.
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Old 2011-10-20, 13:56   Link #1897
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Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia View Post
I'm not a troll I'm just stating facts bro. Shirley was a pathetic character.
You're the one who's ignoring facts though.
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Old 2011-10-20, 14:23   Link #1898
Yamiken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginran View Post
This is what I was getting at. Sorry if I didn't present it in a way that sounded calm, I didn't mean to come across as attacking anyone. I don't mind when people have opinions that conflict with mine. I don't expect everyone to be exactly the same and share the same thoughts. But there are better ways of sharing opinions than to just state them as if they are fact in a negative way, especially when you know there are people that feel strongly against those thoughts. Being considerate of other people's thoughts is not the same thing as being restricted from sharing, its just more polite and appropriate for public conversation.
Agreed start to finish. Thanks for saying it.

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Originally Posted by ginran View Post
Thank you for sharing Yamiken, its nice to see an open minded approach, even if you didn't love the character. Your train of thought on if Shirley had lived is a pretty popular one for a lot of fans. Personally, I think she would have kept him from the suicidal path he took in the end. As far as shipping goes, you are free to whatever you enjoy. My preference is Lelouch/Shirley, but in a non-romantic way I found his relationship with C.C to be pretty amazing as they balanced each other well acting like partners in crime.
I think they'll always definitely be that, unless somewhere were to happen to really drive a wedge between them (in which case someone like V.V. or Schneizel would most likely be blame). But anyway, that's a topic more suited to the C.C. thread. XD

Adding to the idea of Shirley averting the Zero Requiem: it does of course rest on the assumption that the Zero Requiem was a bad thing, or at least that equally good alternatives existed. A lot of people say that Lelouch should've just ruled Britannia well, as he seemed to start doing, but I'm not so sure about this. Whilst Lelouch is undoubtedly brilliant, see, he's at his heart a rebel, a revolutionary, not an establishment figure. He operates by far at his best when he's outside the system, not within it. History itself tells us that such character archetypes often do badly if they are placed in charge of the system, even a new system of their own making - even if they don't fall into outright tyranny, which Lelouch, had he not been pulling a Zero Popularity Gambit, hopefully wouldn't have, they often lack the skills to transform their vision into a reality without a tangible enemy to agitate against - or, if they do manage to successfully transform what they're now in charge of, they just prove to be somewhat incompetent about managing it afterwards, or at least not as suited to doing so as others. Would Lelouch have been able to avoid this? Perhaps, but I'm not convinced. So that's one facet of the objections to the Zero Requiem that I disagree with.

... buuuuuut, that was more about Lelouch than Shirley. ^^; Sorry. Shirley, Shirley, Shirley, what to say about Shirley... okay, here's an idea: what exactly do you think would have happened if Shirley had survived, apart from what's already been discussed? Would she have joined the Black Knights? It seems likely if she was intending to be at Lelouch's side, but one would have thought that might make her uncomfortable... the Black Knights being the organisation that were, directly or indirectly, responsible for her father's death. Admittedly, she's already gone through a similar inner conflict concerning Lelouch himself, of course, and Lelouch came out on top in that, but the difference, naturally, is that she loves Lelouch, whereas the Black Knights...? She is a Britannian, after all, and even if the Black Knights do make a point - when it suits Lelouch, at least - of being against the Britannian state, not the Britannian people, they're still trying to destroy her home nation. That, I'd have thought, would surely make her a little uncomfortable at least, even if she doesn't share the racist nationalism that pervades the thinking and feeling of a lot of her fellow citizens and their government.

Oh, and on another unrelated note (sorry!), this time completely and utterly off-topic: who are the characters in your signature? I feel like I should recognise them, but I can't place their names, or the anime they're from.
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Old 2011-10-20, 15:16   Link #1899
ginran
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Originally Posted by Yamiken View Post
I think they'll always definitely be that, unless somewhere were to happen to really drive a wedge between them (in which case someone like V.V. or Schneizel would most likely be blame). But anyway, that's a topic more suited to the C.C. thread. XD
Haha yea, it is an very interesting topic but not for this thread. XD

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Originally Posted by Yamiken View Post
Adding to the idea of Shirley averting the Zero Requiem: it does of course rest on the assumption that the Zero Requiem was a bad thing, or at least that equally good alternatives existed. A lot of people say that Lelouch should've just ruled Britannia well, as he seemed to start doing, but I'm not so sure about this. Whilst Lelouch is undoubtedly brilliant, see, he's at his heart a rebel, a revolutionary, not an establishment figure. He operates by far at his best when he's outside the system, not within it. History itself tells us that such character archetypes often do badly if they are placed in charge of the system, even a new system of their own making - even if they don't fall into outright tyranny, which Lelouch, had he not been pulling a Zero Popularity Gambit, hopefully wouldn't have, they often lack the skills to transform their vision into a reality without a tangible enemy to agitate against - or, if they do manage to successfully transform what they're now in charge of, they just prove to be somewhat incompetent about managing it afterwards, or at least not as suited to doing so as others. Would Lelouch have been able to avoid this? Perhaps, but I'm not convinced. So that's one facet of the objections to the Zero Requiem that I disagree with.

... buuuuuut, that was more about Lelouch than Shirley. ^^; Sorry. Shirley, Shirley, Shirley, what to say about Shirley... okay, here's an idea: what exactly do you think would have happened if Shirley had survived, apart from what's already been discussed? Would she have joined the Black Knights? It seems likely if she was intending to be at Lelouch's side, but one would have thought that might make her uncomfortable... the Black Knights being the organisation that were, directly or indirectly, responsible for her father's death. Admittedly, she's already gone through a similar inner conflict concerning Lelouch himself, of course, and Lelouch came out on top in that, but the difference, naturally, is that she loves Lelouch, whereas the Black Knights...? She is a Britannian, after all, and even if the Black Knights do make a point - when it suits Lelouch, at least - of being against the Britannian state, not the Britannian people, they're still trying to destroy her home nation. That, I'd have thought, would surely make her a little uncomfortable at least, even if she doesn't share the racist nationalism that pervades the thinking and feeling of a lot of her fellow citizens and their government.
Hmm, I can definately see how you'd have those thoughts on Zero Requiem. It ultimately didn't end up being a disaster with what it accomplished, but I think there must have been other options that wouldn't have ended in his death. You have a good point about a need to break the typical cycle of his character type...and I think he could have pulled it off somehow. I'm not entirely sure how I'd see it happening right now though, sorry I can't offer more at the moment. XD But that could make a very interesting convo on his thread.

As far as Shirley if she lived...I think she would have joined the Black Knights despite some awkwardness at the start. I got the impression she was willing to join Lelouch in whatever he was trying to accomplish when she followed him into the danger zone. While she was more focused on helping Lelouch as a person at that time, I think she could come to see the Black Knights as a group who stands for the greater good, or at least put aside any reservations about them for his sake. But at the same time, its hard to say that for sure considering she is Britannian, and for the other reasons you stated, most importantly that their attack unintentionally resulted in her father dying. That's actually a hard topic to get a solid conclusion on for those very reasons...but Shirley's philosophy on life that "nothing is unforgivable" makes me feel like her being a Black Knight could have possibly worked.

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Originally Posted by Yamiken
Oh, and on another unrelated note (sorry!), this time completely and utterly off-topic: who are the characters in your signature? I feel like I should recognise them, but I can't place their names, or the anime they're from.
It's okay! Haha, they are Jasdevi (Devit and Jasdero) from D.Gray-Man. I've had this sig for so long, but I love it too much to change anytime soon. <3
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Old 2011-10-20, 15:36   Link #1900
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Originally Posted by ginran View Post
As far as Shirley if she lived...I think she would have joined the Black Knights despite some awkwardness at the start. I got the impression she was willing to join Lelouch in whatever he was trying to accomplish when she followed him into the danger zone. While she was more focused on helping Lelouch as a person at that time, I think she could come to see the Black Knights as a group who stands for the greater good, or at least put aside any reservations about them for his sake. But at the same time, its hard to say that for sure considering she is Britannian, and for the other reasons you stated, most importantly that their attack unintentionally resulted in her father dying. That's actually a hard topic to get a solid conclusion on for those very reasons...but Shirley's philosophy on life that "nothing is unforgivable" makes me feel like her being a Black Knight could have possibly worked.
Hm, you do have a good point. There is a more practical consideration, though - how would she have been able to join the Black Knights and remain close to Lelouch without people growing suspicious of their relationship? After all, most of the Black Knights still didn't know Lelouch's true identity until Schneizel spilled the beans in that hideously selective manner of his. If this girl joins the Black Knights and suddenly is thick as thieves with Zero, how long before someone other than Kallen wonders how they know each other so well? C.C. is all very well since she's a mystery anyway; but if anyone went sniffing after Shirley, it wouldn't be long before they came across Lelouch Lamperouge, who oddly enough also happens to (supposedly) be Rolo's elder brother... it would complicate things, is what I'm saying. Possibly Lelouch would've decided it safer for them only to meet outside the Black Knights - though that, on the flipside, would likely limit their time together. Tricky.

On a slightly different note, if she did join the Black Knights, what do you think her role would've been? Everyone thinks of Shirley as 'the normal girl who's just there to be female', but if you think about it, she might actually be quite useful to them. She's not stupid, after all, and moreover her swim club activities seem to show that she's quite athletic. And since that seems to be one of the main factors for determining proficiency with a Knightmare Frame (just look at Suzaku and Kallen), that could actually make her pretty skilled at it - hard though it is to think of Shirley in a Knightmare Frame. XD But then, would she have the stomach for combat? It's not really in her nature, after all... what are your thoughts?

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It's okay! Haha, they are Jasdevi (Devit and Jasdero) from D.Gray-Man. I've had this sig for so long, but I love it too much to change anytime soon. <3
Ahh, I see. That'd be why I didn't recognise them at once, then; never watched or read that series. Oh well, they look pretty... fun, heh.
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