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Old 2011-10-21, 07:12   Link #21
stormtrooper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
This, precisely. In addition, this setup could give the first five a rest since they could get exhausted rather quickly.
It's the author's fault for setting it up because I think Subaru must have scouted some girls who have the potential to be on the team rather than just focusing on the 5, knowing the situation that the team is in. Instead the 5th graders might be handed to him just like that.
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Now that's why I was thinking that a second big guy (or girl, in this case) for Keishin could make them Game Breakers. They are indeed primary school kids, so Airi is an exception rather than the norm for her age.
Having a big girl would eliminate the mismatch at the PF spot. That doesn't necessarily make them broken. Subaru probably wants to have a fast lineup so he placed Maho at PF.
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Old 2011-10-21, 07:24   Link #22
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If you're talking about removing a mismatch, yeah. That also confirms my idea of a run-and-gun style for Subaru's team, consistent with the "underdog" theme prevalent among sports anime.

After all, any hero team becomes boring if they're utterly broken.

For one thing, I find mismatches interesting, because it comes down to which side of the mismatch can capitalize on their advantage first. For a big vs. small PF, for example, a big PF can post up on a smaller PF or jump shoot over him, while smaller PF's can sneak past a bigger PF with his speed.

I'm not sure how Charles Barkley dominated against bigger PF's in the NBA, but that's approximately how Maho can improve as an undersized PF.
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Old 2011-10-21, 10:48   Link #23
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Is Maho that much of an undersized PF for a 6th grader girl?
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Old 2011-10-21, 13:08   Link #24
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Is Maho that much of an undersized PF for a 6th grader girl?
Her height is just average for a 6th grader like Tomoka and Saki. Relative to Airi's height, Maho looks small for PF.
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Old 2011-10-21, 21:01   Link #25
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Keishin Girls' Basketball Data Card v.1.0 by Judas Martel



Still incomplete because I have no data on the 5th graders yet.

Although, I still find it odd that a team has a taller PG and a shorter PF. Unless of course I had the positions wrong. But hey, Magic was a 6-9 PG. Much taller than some of the guys in the 80's Lakers, AFAIK.
But well, this is a primary school basketball team, so I can still forgive that.
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Old 2011-10-21, 21:57   Link #26
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Kagetsu is said to be more than 10cm shorter than Airi so my guess is possibly 152-3cm, while Mimi is "not much taller than Hinata" and has a big size disadvantage to Tomoka (their first 1on1 match at Subara's place as Tomoka had trouble driving past Mimi she had to change to a power style by mimicking Airi and using her size advantage over Mimi), so somewhere in the mid 130s I would guess.

And Maho makes up for her smallish size with her jump height and speed, Subara has mentioned that Maho's dribbling speed (while only in a straight line) and acceleration matches Tomoka's. Either way while Saki is taller than both Tomoka and Maho you can't deny that she's the only one who can play PG in the team. Only Tomoka can play PG next to Saki but Tomoka is too nice to her team mates and is somewhat bad at play psychology as she is way too honest.
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Old 2011-10-22, 10:07   Link #27
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So where can I read the LN's in English? That way, I can follow the story from where the anime left off, and from there, I could get the data for the 5th graders, including their positions.

Spoiler for Keishin 2nd Team POS speculation:
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Old 2011-10-22, 10:37   Link #28
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there is no translation yet for it or even a plan for translation >.> I wish someone will translate it.
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Old 2011-10-22, 10:44   Link #29
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Kagetsu is said to be more than 10cm shorter than Airi so my guess is possibly 152-3cm, while Mimi is "not much taller than Hinata" and has a big size disadvantage to Tomoka (their first 1on1 match at Subara's place as Tomoka had trouble driving past Mimi she had to change to a power style by mimicking Airi and using her size advantage over Mimi), so somewhere in the mid 130s I would guess.
Subaru could use a legit PF in Kagetsu (5-0) to eliminate a mismatch that could beat them. Airi at C + Kagetsu at PF = Keishin's Twin Towers.

Mimi (4-5) could be useful as an SG coming off the bench until she learns how to play with the team where she could progress into a PG/SG combo guard.

What's the playing style of the twins, by the way? Do they employ Schrodinger Fu against their opponents?
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Old 2011-10-22, 13:26   Link #30
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Spoiler for lineup for Keishin:

The twins can't play with Maho so they will start with Airi, Tomoka and Masami. I can't put Masami with Saki at the same time so one of them will be benched and the other will start. I won't start both Mimi and Tomoka so Mimi off the bench.

I'm tempted to bench Maho during crunch so that Saki can pass the ball to an open teammate just in case Mimi or Tomoka gets double teamed. Maho might just go for a bad shot and would piss off Tomoka and Mimi. I'm considering Masami for crunch time since she can shoot the long ball.

Once I know the strengths and weaknesses of the 5th graders then I might change this lineup.
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Old 2011-10-22, 14:00   Link #31
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Wow, this is interesting. More often than not, line-ups change from time to time, depending on the situation. Because you know, as a coach, Subaru should know when is the right time to play good, then play big or small, whichever the situation demands, and come crunch time, get serious.

Now, your starting 5 is kinda balanced, not too big but not too small, and as expected, Mokkan will be the starting PG.

Bench girls are small, which is important should Keishin decide to play small so they could outrun big but slow opponents.

Crunch time, oh dear God. I could only imagine THAT scenario happening. But you know, somebody who can throw long bombs can help win games, especially from behind. As well as offensive plays and defensive stops of the Batman Gambit variety.

Slam Dunk for example, Mitsui's 3-point shooting streak cut down Shoyo's lead to half, which led Shohoku to a come-from-behind victory against them. I can see something like this happening in RKB: Keishin winning from behind a large margin (a primary school GIRLS' b-ball team coming back from ~20 points down would be awesome).
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Old 2011-10-23, 20:37   Link #32
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Actually you have to look at the current positions for Keishin first:
Airi: Centre
Maho: Power Forward
Hinata: Small Forward
Tomoka: Shooting Guard/Point Forward
Saki: Point Guard

It''ll be hard to move these 5 outside of their current position now that they are more or less specialising (except Tomoka). So when you swap in the 5th graders you have to keep that in mind.

Mimi is small but that doesn't make her good PG material, like Tomoka she's also too caught up on winning a 1on1 match up, actually she's worse than Tomoka when it comes to winning and not seeing the bigger picture. In fact currently Saki has no one to replace her except Tomoka (but only if Subara gives specific directions to Tomoka) so there's a weakness there (unless we discover something about the 5th graders later on to amend this). If Mimi is to come in I think she would replace either Tomoka or Hinata.

Kagetsu height and athleticism should make her a replacement for either Airi or Maho depending on situation, so she's the perfect candidate for training as a Foward-Centre.

The Takenaka twins would both be forwards, I don't see anywhere else for them.

Masami otoh is in an awkward position. Keep in mind there's no 3 pointers in mini basketball, so while Masami can technically shoot from the 3 point line there is no point advantage to it. She also currently has no other skills so it'll have to wait till later on to see which direction she would go, but considering that she's Saki's "rival" she'll probably end up with some PG skills and turn into a Combo Guard. For the rules of mini basketball currently it's better to move in for a high percentage shot and possibly draw a foul for a 3 point play in the process.
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Old 2011-10-23, 20:59   Link #33
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eh... Tomoka is the SF as far as all around scoring ability and ball handling go. Hinata is more of an range lacking SG.

But really, the issue with the team's lineup, IMO, comes down to Maho. Despise being a PF, she plays more like SF and is having a overlapping role with Tomoka. The team would be in a mis-match if the other team has strong inside game, although that could chandge if Hinata develop her outside shot to allow Tomoka to go inside for stealing opportunities.


As judasmartel said, unless Maho develops into a Barkely or Rodman type PF (both undersized, though more Barkely than Rodman since Maho is offensive minded) or Hinata develop some sniper skill, the current starting lineup doesn't look like their best lineup.
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Old 2011-10-23, 21:40   Link #34
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I didn't come up with the positions - it's specifically mentioned in the novel. That's why Tomoka is said to be a Point Forward because she swings between a Shooting Guard and a Small Forward, Tomoka is pretty much akin to Jordon or Magic Johnson in her role in Keishin.

Both Maho and Hinata hasn't had her chance to "level up" yet, but Maho is definitely shaping up to be Berkley-like that she is either going to be a SF or PF, but without dumping Hinata Maho is going to be the PF, it's just a pity that the anime only focused on showing her mid-range shooting eg her match up with Miyu/Chibi Ribbon in the anime only shows her going for the middle shot before she got fouled, but in the novel she was actually on a break away going for a lay up and changed to a single hand throw (thanks to her insistence on practicing the single handed shot instead of the double handed one that Subaru original wanted her to practice along with Saki) which shows both her explosive speed, jumping ability/air time and persistence in attacking.

Hinata's specialty right now is her ability to drive past defenders due to her height and balance sense and her tricky style passing game, she also seems to have the uncanny ability to appear out of nowhere to cut a pass, Subara attributes this to how players are more accustomed to looking up/practicing for bigger players and becomes completely inexperienced when someone goes *really* low and under and that seems to be what would become Hinata's secret weapon in the long run. Hinata's mid/long hit rate is too low to be a SG, and Subaru's coaching style of "enjoy basketball" isn't going to force her to improve in that area either and instead would force on what the girl's attribute/personality fits, so I think Hinata is going to keep developing her skill in driving past her defenders and stealing when her opponent don't notice her there.
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Last edited by houkoholic; 2011-10-23 at 22:00.
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Old 2011-10-23, 22:18   Link #35
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@houkoholic You're double-posting, man. But I know it's just your connection that got you. Completely unintentional, I assume.

@Mokkan and Saki: You know, if you got TWO POINT FORWARDS in your team, you can never go wrong, really. One plays while the other is resting.

@Hinata: I love the way she's going to progress. This reminds me of a lot of small but fast players making it big in the real thing: Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Chris Paul, and some others. Though I'm imagining Hinata as Keishin's version of Rondo. Just imagining, though.

@Mimi: Small but no PG material = automatic SG, then Combo Guard when she gets to know how to play with the team.

@Masami: Good point. I didn't know primary school basketball didn't have a 3-point line. In our country though, elementary school basketball has a 3-point line, it's just that nobody takes that risky shot from downtown especially if your body's not yet ready to pull it off.
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Old 2011-10-23, 22:56   Link #36
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LOL didn't realise the other post got doubled too
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Old 2011-10-24, 04:00   Link #37
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Interesting, the LN version I read was the official Chinese release and I not too familiar with the Chinese term of basketball position.

Either way, if the current starting five is going to be Kenshin's best lineup, than it seems that the author is developing team similar to Shaq-Kobe Lakers. With Airi become a beast in the middle and Tomoka as the versatile rover that play according to match-ups and the rest of team are good shooter who can pass, ideal for Triangle. With Maho handling close/mid shots, Saki handling mid/long shots and assist, and Hinata be the pesky defender that does outside shot and act as 2nd ball handler.
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Old 2011-10-24, 05:16   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Interesting, the LN version I read was the official Chinese release and I not too familiar with the Chinese term of basketball position.

Either way, if the current starting five is going to be Kenshin's best lineup, than it seems that the author is developing team similar to Shaq-Kobe Lakers. With Airi become a beast in the middle and Tomoka as the versatile rover that play according to match-ups and the rest of team are good shooter who can pass, ideal for Triangle. With Maho handling close/mid shots, Saki handling mid/long shots and assist, and Hinata be the pesky defender that does outside shot and act as 2nd ball handler.
Huh? Triangle Offense? I didn't know Subaru is THAT advanced! But given that he's a legit PG, well, that makes sense. He's essentially a younger Phil Jackson!~

Well, the Triangle is said to be one of the most difficult offenses to pull off since it requires a GREAT deal of teamwork to make it work. One guy makes a mistake, the team is screwed.

In the anime, Subaru is more focused on the 4-1 offense, given Keishin's limited manpower. He did make adjustments against Suzuridani (Miyu's team) when the 2-3 Zone was employed against them. The catch? The 2-3 Zone is one of the most Nigh Invulnerable defenses in basketball.

They countered that with the Zone Buster, which consists mainly of consistent, clockwork passing until an open man could be found. I wonder if this is a variation of the Triangle or is just a simple way of getting past the Zone.

From what I have observed in the anime, the 4-1 offense can be easily locked down by a man-to-man defense, thus Subaru says "it isn't perfect yet."
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Old 2011-10-24, 07:00   Link #39
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Not really saying that's what the goal is, but I can see the team evolve to the version of Triangle used in Shaq-Kobe Laker era, or even Kobe-Gasol version if Maho become advanced enough.

Especially the way Subaru is focusing on multiple passing to create open shots and movement without the ball. Don't forget that Shaq-Kobe version Triangle is focusing on getting the ball to Shaq or Kobe at some point of the offensive possession so they can draw double-team and dish it out to open shooter.

Triangle is always easy to understand and get into but hard to master, and you need to resist the urge to shoot or one-on-ones which seems to to be more of Kenshin's style.
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Old 2011-10-24, 08:01   Link #40
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Oh, okay, that made sense. But then, all our speculations and all the training the girls (both the core and the second unit) have to go through will come to naught if they can't play in official tournaments.

Speaking of which, is the 3-point line implemented in elementary school basketball From what I know, it's actually implemented, it's just that the kids can't or won't just pull off 3's. Trying to get an and-one is far more practical than throwing long bombs while praying it would connect. And that's assuming you're a good free-throw shooter.

Two things:

1. A 5-6 player dunking on something like a 10-ft board. Is it plausible?
2. With a three-point line implemented, Masami could become a beast from long-range if she works on her accuracy from downtown.
Like I posted earlier, there's a reason why the Chinese basketball teams in the 1990's are afraid of the Philippine number 8.
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