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Old 2011-10-26, 12:58   Link #281
LunarMoon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
American series do those kind of things for shock value as well.
Name a depressing ending in an American movie made for shock value, and I can name 15 happy endings, many of which were created by butchering book endings.

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See, you yourself were implying was that only series that are dark are good, and you yourself were calling FMA:B and the manga childish yourself, for not being as dark as the 2003 adaptation. You were the one calling FMA:B childish and judging its merits based off of that, which people other members on this forums pointed out made you seem child yourself. So don't even try to get on your high horse now, its already too late.
I was? When? I can't imagine myself calling Brotherhood "childish", because I don't see being "childish" as a negative quality to a series. Hence why I mentioned how "childish" Alice in Wonderland is, before stating how much I enjoyed reading it. I couldn't care less about whether something's childish or not as long as it makes me think.

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Actually I would call the 2003 series lolgrimdark as much of its dark components ultimately didn't have a purpose for being there, and was just there to get a response. But storyline wise it doesn't make any sense, and comes across as juvenile.
Again, I couldn't care less whether it's "juvenile" or not. And I'm still wondering why you do. Seriously, why do you care? Full Metal Alchemist is a shonen so of course it's going to be somewhat "juvenile", but that still doesn't stop it from having, what I regard as, a more nuanced set of themes than Brotherhood.

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The thing about Lust's character in the 2003 version is that she was meaningless (much like Rose and many other female characters in that story), none of that character development they gave her meant anything overall, quite like much of the series. Actually there are a lot unfortunate implication in the 2003 adaptation both about women (ironic since the original series the adaptation was based on was written and drawn by a woman) and about race in general.
Are you seriously going to make the argument that Full Metal Alchemist is racist? That's quite a charge. What's your evidence that this series is Mein Kampf Light?

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Also the things you just mentioned in FMA:B started before episode 40, Also kirakim is right about "trusting others" being a theme of Brotherhood and the manga, as Ed wouldn't have been able to been able to make it that far, it he didn't trust in others. Though the show never told us this, it showed us this through the actions of the characters and the fact that, it was the trust that they had for one another that ultimately made the coup d'etat successful.
It's a theme, yes, but it isn't the main theme and it isn't a particular original one either. Kino's Journey and FMA 2003 may have the same theme of an "imperfect yet beautiful world", but I see that theme far less than that of trusting people and confiding in your friends.

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Not series has to have dark elements to be considered good. In fact a series that has dark elements just to have them is not a good series at all.
I've mentioned this already. I've also mentioned that FMA 2003 isn't simply good because it has dark themes, and even went through the process of bringing up examples of poor dark fiction. As for the series being childish? Again, I couldn't care less. You're talking to a guy who reads super hero comics.

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Spoiler for off topic:
The brother admitted to forgetting about her? I don't even see how that's possible. Grave of the Fireflies is based on an autobiographical novel, and the author obviously remembered enough about his sister to bother writing about her, more than twenty years after her death.

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But again it seems like to you in order for a series to be considered "mature" and good it must have dark elements in it, and I've really gotta say that makes you seem juvenile.
Again, I don't care. I do not care about whether a series I watch is perceived as juvenile, and I do not care about whether I myself am perceived as juvenile. Hence, why I posted the C.S. Lewis quote and asked why you seem to care so much.
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Old 2011-10-26, 13:09   Link #282
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
It's a theme, yes, but it isn't the main theme and it isn't a particular original one either. Kino's Journey and FMA 2003 may have the same theme of an "imperfect yet beautiful world", but I see that theme far less than that of trusting people and confiding in your friends.
And I said Kino no Tabi presented this theme better than Fullmetal Alchemist.

Well actually I am going to go further and say FMA didn't present the theme of "imperfect but beautiful world at all". Besides Roy telling Riza that the world is beautiful because of it's imperfections does the series ever show that? If it did it did a very poor job in my opinion. I mean how was this "beautiful world" shown in the first series? It wasn't at all. We barely got to know Amestris much less the rest of the FMA world.

With Kino's journey on the other hand it showed the beautiful yet imperfect world in every episode. It was a constant theme not just one that felt tacked on the end.


Now I am not going to completely put down the first series because if you take out "the beautiful world" aspect I think it is a series that shows "you don't always get what you want". This is not a bad theme & I think the first series did a good job with it but it's not entirely original either. Seems to be a theme in quite a few of my favorite Noir Films (talking about Hollywood films with less than happy endings btw).
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Old 2011-10-26, 14:17   Link #283
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Name a depressing ending in an American movie made for shock value, and I can name 15 happy endings, many of which were created by butchering book endings.
Actually a Western Animated series, Film, Comic Book, and Live-Action Series having a Downer Ending is quite common film trope, and yes all of those links lead to examples of endings that weren't happy.

Or if that, certain trope doesn't hit you then there's always The Bittersweet Endings, and of course series where the Main Hero Dies, or series where anyone in the cast can die, etc. And yes everyone of those links leads to examples.

If you've never seen any tv series, comic book, live-action series, western animated series, with a sad or bittersweet ending then you don't know that particular media very well.


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I was? When? I can't imagine myself calling Brotherhood "childish", because I don't see being "childish" as a negative quality to a series. Hence why I mentioned how "childish" Alice in Wonderland is, before stating how much I enjoyed reading it. I couldn't care less about whether something's childish or not as long as it makes me think.
You brought up its light-heartedness and happy ending as a negative quality to the series, you also claimed that the series was completely unrealistic (goes to show how much you know about FMA), basically implying that you thought it to be childish and immature.

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Again, I couldn't care less whether it's "juvenile" or not. And I'm still wondering why you do. Seriously, why do you care? Full Metal Alchemist is a shonen so of course it's going to be somewhat "juvenile", but that still doesn't stop it from having, what I regard as, a more nuanced set of themes than Brotherhood.
Actually no I don't care about anyone saying either adaptation is for kids, you wanna know why? Because they are for kids.

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Are you seriously going to make the argument that Full Metal Alchemist is racist? That's quite a charge. What's your evidence that this series is Mein Kampf Light?
Yes it was actually kinda racist, and very sexist. Example Roy, he kills hundreds of innocent civilians during the Ishvalan war, and you know the only one that he felt guilty for was when he killed two doctors of the same race as him. That is quite racist. As for sexism Rose, Dante, Winry, the way how Hawkeye gets pushed to the side, and Lust.
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It's a theme, yes, but it isn't the main theme and it isn't a particular original one either. Kino's Journey and FMA 2003 may have the same theme of an "imperfect yet beautiful world", but I see that theme far less than that of trusting people and confiding in your friends.
I'd say that it didn't play off that theme very well as the farther the series went there was only ugliness shown in that world, with no beauty to be had. Kino Journey was able to find an equilibrium between the two, however, this one was so focused on showing how harsh it was it for the characters that it forgot to show the beauty of it. If this was a theme for the 2003 version it didn't pull it off.

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I've mentioned this already. I've also mentioned that FMA 2003 isn't simply good because it has dark themes, and even went through the process of bringing up examples of poor dark fiction. As for the series being childish? Again, I couldn't care less. You're talking to a guy who reads super hero comics.
Funny because that's the reason you gave for thinking it to be good.

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The brother admitted to forgetting about her? I don't even see how that's possible. Grave of the Fireflies is based on an autobiographical novel, and the author obviously remembered enough about his sister to bother writing about her, more than twenty years after her death.
yes he did, that's why the movie isn't about survivor's guilt the author moved on with his life.

Again, I don't care. I do not care about whether a series I watch is perceived as juvenile, and I do not care about whether I myself am perceived as juvenile. Hence, why I posted the C.S. Lewis quote and asked why you seem to care so much.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
a series being childish isn't a bad thing. What makes a series bad is the story itself.
Again the only one who was behaving like a dark elements makes a series good and mature is you. This was essentially why everyone has been on your case for the last couple of pages, so trying to pretend that you never said that or acted that way right now just makes you look like a fool.
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Old 2011-10-26, 22:04   Link #284
LunarMoon
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The site you posted argues that happy endings are the standard, for which a professional writer says the same. According to TV Tropes, it’s such an omnipresent trope that it doesn’t even warrant its own page (“Far, far too common to provide example”). Likewise, there are entire fictional genres largely dedicated to happy endings. Romantic comedies almost always end in happy endings. The same can be said for most Hollywood popcorn flicks, the majority of action movies, the vast majority of comedies, the majority of romances, and the majority of teen movies. In comparison, only the uncommonly used play genre of Tragedy is primarily pessimistic. 15 to 1 wouldn’t be a far off assessment. People don’t go to the movies to be depressed, and I’m amazed that we’re even debating this when a simple look at the box office can provide you with the answer.
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You brought up its light-heartedness and happy ending as a negative quality to the series, you also claimed that the series was completely unrealistic (goes to show how much you know about FMA), basically implying that you thought it to be childish and immature.
When? No, seriously, when? I mentioned that equivalent exchange was unrealistic though I shouldn't even have to explain again why that's so. Also, implying? As in I didn't actually say it, but you interpreted it as such? Well, there you go.


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Actually no I don't care about anyone saying either adaptation is for kids, you wanna know why? Because they are for kids.
You mentioned the word "childish" or "juvenile" to insult the first series three times in one post, and you're telling me that you don't mind that an adaption is for kids?
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I'd say that it didn't play off that theme very well as the farther the series went there was only ugliness shown in that world, with no beauty to be had. Kino Journey was able to find an equilibrium between the two, however, this one was so focused on showing how harsh it was it for the characters that it forgot to show the beauty of it. If this was a theme for the 2003 version it didn't pull it off.
You're acting as if we're discussing Schlinder's List, or some other series that most critics would actually describe as depressing. Full Metal Alchemist features a straightly played heroic protagonist (not an anti-hero like Shinji Ikari) who routinely risks his life for other people. Towards the end of the series, Dante notes that equivalent exchange is a lie, which initially seems depressing. Hohenheim later notes the positive benefits of this, since if equivalent exchange was true, there would never be anything that he could offer for the blessing of having a family. The series then ends as Edward notes the fact that even though there is no law of equivalent exchange and thus that the world is "ugly" and unfair, that he won't allow his brother die. Due to the fact that the world is a supposedly "ugly and unfair" place in which the there is no guaranteed law of equivalent exchange, Edward manages to bring both his brother soul and body back through sheer determination, without having to offer anything of equal value.

If a scenario like that comes off to you as purely ugly and grim then I don't know what would qualify as beautiful or optimistic. And it's not as if this theme is particularly subtle, either. It's verbally mentioned four times within a direct sequence of episodes: first by Dante in those exact words, secondly by Hohenheim, thrice by Ed as he attempts to retrieve his brother's soul without an equal sacrifice, and on the fourth time, Dante's exact line is repeated in verbatim by Roy Mustang. This isn't like those books that you were made to read during high school where you had to scan through 50 pages in order to figure out the theme.

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Yes it was actually kinda racist, and very sexist. Example Roy, he kills hundreds of innocent civilians during the Ishvalan war, and you know the only one that he felt guilty for was when he killed two doctors of the same race as him. That is quite racist. As for sexism Rose, Dante, Winry, the way how Hawkeye gets pushed to the side, and Lust.
I’ll humor you for a second. Let’s say that Roy Mustang is indeed a racist, who owns 12 slaves and rants about the purification of the white race. How does that make the anime racist? No, seriously; think about this. Also, on Hawkeye: The majority of the characters get “pushed to the side” because that’s one of the major differences between the two series. One focuses on a large cast of characters consisting of Ling, Lan Fan, Mei, Fou, four chimeras, Scar, Yoki, and Dr. Marcoh, that it follows on a regular basis. The other largely focuses upon the two brothers, with a revolving cast of supporting characters throughout the series. At one point in the series it’s Lust and at another point the focus character is Greed. You might as well just pull the Nazi Card and be done with it, if you’re going to argue racism or sexism.

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yes he did, that's why the movie isn't about survivor's guilt the author moved on with his life.
Brooding over a traumatic past experience for 20 years and then writing a book about it is moving on? Then what on Earth counts as holding on to the past? Most people settle for therapy with a shrink.

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Again the only one who was behaving like a dark elements makes a series good and mature is you. This was essentially why everyone has been on your case for the last couple of pages, so trying to pretend that you never said that or acted that way right now just makes you look like a fool.
Incorrect. The reason everyone has "been on my case" for the last couple of pages is because I criticized a series in a topic dedicated to it, which is one step removed from going to a fan site, and posting a bad review. Of course, when I attempt to clarify my actual position (repeatedly) I'm well aware that the viewpoint of complete strangers in regard to what my opinion is will be more readily accepted than my own knowledge of what my own opinion is.

This is a special type of insanity. This is the first debate, that I've been involved in, in which I've basically had to argue that I'm indeed a Democrat, like I say I am, and not a Republican. Usually people are rational enough to accept personal statements about beliefs and tastes at face value. I'm not going to sit around with a Protestant, in an attempt to convince them that they're really a Hindu.

Last edited by LunarMoon; 2011-10-26 at 22:39.
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Old 2011-10-27, 01:28   Link #285
wisteria233
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
The site you posted argues that happy endings are the standard, for which a professional writer says the same. According to TV Tropes, it’s such an omnipresent trope that it doesn’t even warrant its own page (“Far, far too common to provide example”). Likewise, there are entire fictional genres largely dedicated to happy endings. Romantic comedies almost always end in happy endings. The same can be said for most Hollywood popcorn flicks, the majority of action movies, the vast majority of comedies, the majority of romances, and the majority of teen movies. In comparison, only the uncommonly used play genre of Tragedy is primarily pessimistic. 15 to 1 wouldn’t be a far off assessment. People don’t go to the movies to be depressed, and I’m amazed that we’re even debating this when a simple look at the box office can provide you with the answer.
I never said that happy endings weren't the norm only that downer endings, and bitter sweet endings aren't as uncommon as you might think, especially for anime and manga (or eastern media in general). Several eastern series from the top of my mind that either have downer or bittersweet endings.

Dennou Coil
Sh15uya
Digimon Tamers (for the kiddies)
Both Rurouni Kenshin OVAs-- the original manga had a happier ending
Revolutionary Girl Utena tv series
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Escaflowne
Macross Zero
Kikaider
Bokurano
Shadow Star Naru Taru
Doubt
Cutey Honey the Live
Deep Love
Chrno Crusade-- Ironically the manga had a happier ending
Princess Tutu
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
That was from the top of my head.


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When? No, seriously, when? I mentioned that equivalent exchange was unrealistic though I shouldn't even have to explain again why that's so. Also, implying? As in I didn't actually say it, but you interpreted it as such? Well, there you go.

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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Then I asked whether it surpassed the 2009 Full Metal Alchemist series, and decided that it definitely had the potential to do as such. Why? Because, like the first three episodes of Fate Zero, in the entire 37 episode run that I watched, it covers no major ideological themes that leave you thinking about them after you’ve finished watching it.

The problem with FMA Brotherhood, and this has been mentioned before, is that it indulges in too many shonen clichés, while simultaneously being to lighthearted to inspire a strong emotional response. So it’s nice and happy for those who thought that the 2003 series had too much “angst” (read: realistic character reactions and drama),

Thus the first FMA series earns points just from straying from that cliché, and actually attempting to inspire some level of emotional catharsis via tragedy.
Your own words. That was essentially what you were saying was that Fate/Zero and FMA:B, weren't any better than the 2003 series for not being grimdark. That you are using that as a criteria for judging a series, instead of the story itself, and the whether or not it actually pulled off those themes well. You also outright said that lighthearted shows cannot inspire any emotional response from the viewer. Also you basically said that its okay for a series to have cliches as long as its dark.

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You mentioned the word "childish" or "juvenile" to insult the first series three times in one post, and you're telling me that you don't mind that an adaption is for kids?
Fun fact the original manga is aimed at kids as well, so why should I care whether or not the adaptation is for kids considering that that's who the original manga was aimed at? And subsequently both adaptations

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You're acting as if we're discussing Schlinder's List, or some other series that most critics would actually describe as depressing. Full Metal Alchemist features a straightly played heroic protagonist (not an anti-hero like Shinji Ikari) who routinely risks his life for other people. Towards the end of the series, Dante notes that equivalent exchange is a lie, which initially seems depressing. Hohenheim later notes the positive benefits of this, since if equivalent exchange was true, there would never be anything that he could offer for the blessing of having a family. The series then ends as Edward notes the fact that even though there is no law of equivalent exchange and thus that the world is "ugly" and unfair, that he won't allow his brother die. Due to the fact that the world is a supposedly "ugly and unfair" place in which the there is no guaranteed law of equivalent exchange, Edward manages to bring both his brother soul and body back through sheer determination, without having to offer anything of equal value.

If a scenario like that comes off to you as purely ugly and grim then I don't know what would qualify as beautiful or optimistic. And it's not as if this theme is particularly subtle, either. It's verbally mentioned four times within a direct sequence of episodes: first by Dante in those exact words, secondly by Hohenheim, thrice by Ed as he attempts to retrieve his brother's soul without an equal sacrifice, and on the fourth time, Dante's exact line is repeated in verbatim by Roy Mustang. This isn't like those books that you were made to read during high school where you had to scan through 50 pages in order to figure out the theme..
Like I said before it failed to get an emotional response out of me, because I said it before the scenes ulitmately didn't have a point to them. It didn't help matters that I was more busy wondering why Ed and Al were such an idiots for me to have any type of emotional response.

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I’ll humor you for a second. Let’s say that Roy Mustang is indeed a racist, who owns 12 slaves and rants about the purification of the white race. How does that make the anime racist? No, seriously; think about this. Also, on Hawkeye: The majority of the characters get “pushed to the side” because that’s one of the major differences between the two series. One focuses on a large cast of characters consisting of Ling, Lan Fan, Mei, Fou, four chimeras, Scar, Yoki, and Dr. Marcoh, that it follows on a regular basis. The other largely focuses upon the two brothers, with a revolving cast of supporting characters throughout the series. At one point in the series it’s Lust and at another point the focus character is Greed. You might as well just pull the Nazi Card and be done with it, if you’re going to argue racism or sexism.
It was one of many unfortunate implications of the 2003 series, and no, trying to exaggerate the situation doesn't make it any less racist. The fact of the matter is Roy's angst in the 2003 series was because of the fact he killed stemmed two people of his own race, and not the other hundreds of innocent civilian lives he took. Racism can be shown without slavery, the minute you hold someone of a different race of a lower regard you are racist, then you are a racist. That's why I said it was cheap drama because at the time the writers only wanted to get some sort of reaction out of people, that they didn't care to look at what they were doing was implying.
Its the same thing with how they treated the female characters, they did it for more cheap drama, to gain a reaction out of you, with out thinking back on what they were implying, and again you never answered my question what was the point to having Rose a character we don't know and don't care about raped? I can't even say that both brothers get the focus because the 2003 series was all about Ed. Al was just Ed's accessory.

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Brooding over a traumatic past experience for 20 years and then writing a book about it is moving on? Then what on Earth counts as holding on to the past? Most people settle for therapy with a shrink.
He didn't brood, he even says that on the last points in the movie. He just moved on. Just because someone writes a book on an event in their lives doesn't mean that they haven't already moved on from it.

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Incorrect. The reason everyone has "been on my case" for the last couple of pages is because I criticized a series in a topic dedicated to it, which is one step removed from going to a fan site, and posting a bad review. Of course, when I attempt to clarify my actual position (repeatedly) I'm well aware that the viewpoint of complete strangers in regard to what my opinion is will be more readily accepted than my own knowledge of what my own opinion is.
Considering your attempts to clarify only consist of you saying its lighthearted and therefore that makes it bad, or not as good, I've gotta wonder about that.

Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-10-27 at 03:33.
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Old 2011-10-28, 14:21   Link #286
LunarMoon
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Your own words. That was essentially what you were saying was that Fate/Zero and FMA:B, weren't any better than the 2003 series for not being grimdark. That you are using that as a criteria for judging a series, instead of the story itself, and the whether or not it actually pulled off those themes well. You also outright said that lighthearted shows cannot inspire any emotional response from the viewer.
To be honest, I was only aware of the comment at the end, in which I mentioned that FMA 2003, established pathos via tragedy, while I wasn’t affected by Brotherhood’s pathos at all. Originally, I was going to simply end that sentence with the word “pathos”, but I felt that I needed to mention the method through which it actually establishes pathos, so it was changed to “pathos via tragedy”. There are definitely other ways to establish pathos other than tragedy, such as the pathos established by wanting to see Rocky win the boxing championship, or by anything marked as a Crowning Moment of Heartwarming, but I don’t believe that Brotherhood really established any pathos well enough for me to be emotionally effected. For the reason mentioned above, the entire flame war came off to me, as similar to an excerpt from the Boondocks-

MLK: …although our movement may come off as extremely liberal to some-
O’ Reilly: Do you love America?
MLK: I’m sorry-
O’ Reilly: Why can’t liberals ever answer that question? Say you love America! Say it!

And the entire discussion becomes based around something that amounted to a throwaway comment.

Knowing that I actually did speak about Brotherhood’s lighthearted atmosphere does inform me that someone could have actually misinterpreted the post, in a manner that doesn’t involve doing so intentionally in order to start a flame war or in order to troll bait, though I don’t agree with basing the entire debate around three sentences, as if there isn’t any possible, logical reason to prefer FMA 2003 to Brotherhood. Originally, I created those three sentences as a response to the multiple people who regularly dismiss Full Metal Alchemist, and similar anime, as being “emo” or for “forcing drama”. My argument was that the tragedy in FMA 2003 wasn’t some sort of horrific flaw, but that, if anything, it provided a refreshing change from the shows that shy away from it.
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I never said that happy endings weren't the norm only that downer endings, and bitter sweet endings aren't as uncommon as you might think, especially for anime and manga (or eastern media in general). Several eastern series from the top of my mind that either have downer or bittersweet endings.
The debate was over the argument that for every depressing ending, that there are 15 happy endings. Obviously there are a few bittersweet endings, or we wouldn't be having this debate over Full Metal Alchemist, but overall they're pretty rare when you look into the greater whole.
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On the internet, you can't infer opinions. There's no body language to non-verbally read preferences with. Most of the time you can't even tell whether someone's being sarcastic or not, so figuring out someone's opinion on a complex idea, without reading it directly, just can't be done.
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Your own words. That was essentially what you were saying was that Fate/Zero and FMA:B, weren't any better than the 2003 series for not being grimdark. That you are using that as a criteria for judging a series, instead of the story itself, and the whether or not it actually pulled off those themes well. You also outright said that lighthearted shows cannot inspire any emotional response from the viewer.
I like to put things into little boxes, and I’m very clinical with how I rank things. Every work has a theme. The ideals, moral beliefs, and biases of the author will seep into a work, whether they’re aware of it or not, though some themes are more complex, more original, or better developed than others. The Godfather’s theme is, arguably, more complex and more applicable to reality than that of Rambo’s, for instance. And those three factors are generally what I’ll use to rank a work on a scale from dull, to entertaining , to great, which is a work that may or may not actually entertaining but which nonetheless expands upon important, universally human ideas. Often a great work is also a classic work that has stood the test of time for several decades. It’s not an objective or scientific scale by any means, but it is vaguely consistent.

FMA 2003 is an “entertaining” work, in my eyes, though it’s higher on the scale than many others. The ideas that it presents are used far less often than many others and, in my opinion, are developed very well, even if I can’t see it being relevant enough to become a part of human literary canon in one hundred years. FMA Brotherhood is also an “entertaining” work though I rank it lower than FMA 2003, because I find the ideas that it explores to be more commonly used. Of course, how I rank something on this scale has little to do with how much I actually enjoy it. I don’t agree with many facets of Objectivism, at all, but I still rank Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugs, as higher than the majority of the stuff that I do actually like, due to how insanely influential it’s ideas have been over the last few decades.

That’s also why I ranked the first three episodes of Fate Zero below FMA 2003. So far, it’s one of the most entertaining shows I’ve ever seen. It’s also the only one that I’m currently following and I typically catch it within thirty minutes of its NicoNico release. But it hasn’t presented its main idea yet, so I can’t fairly rate it on the scale, especially considering the fact that it’s 24 episode series and only four episodes have been released, so it wouldn’t be logical to rate the series as whole. I’m also a Type Moon fan, so I place an extra degree of work into not overrating it or allowing my biases to influence the ranking. Of course, as critically acclaimed as it is, even by Type Moon noobies, I think it’s safe to say that it really is as good as I think it is.

Spoiler for Tangent Comparison Between Fate Zero and FMA 2003:

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Fun fact the original manga is aimed at kids as well, so why should I care whether or not the adaptation is for kids considering that that's who the original manga was aimed at? And subsequently both adaptations
Yes, and that’s what I was asking about. I don’t see why you kept using the words “juvenile” or “childish” to describe FMA 2003, when you claimed to not care that a series is juvenile.
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Like I said before it failed to get an emotional response out of me, because I said it before the scenes ulitmately didn't have a point to them. It didn't help matters that I was more busy wondering why Ed and Al were such an idiots for me to have any type of emotional response.
And that would be how I feel about Brotherhood. For whatever reason, I found it difficult to care about whether Ed and Al obtained their bodies again and was actually far more interested in watching Ling attempt to gain the imperial throne and unite the various clans of Xing. Ling and Mei just communicated the idea that they wanted to win their little war more than the brothers wanted their bodies, so I was ultimately more interested in their struggle. Of course, Ling’s ascension was only focused on again in a scene at the end of the anime, without really elaborating on what happened from there, so the plot point that could have inspired some sort of emotional reaction in me, pretty much went cold.

Ed was actually really competent. Far more so than most teenage protagonists such as Fate Route Shirou Emiya or Loyd Irving, but I do agree that Alphonse and Dante kept passing around the idiot ball as if it was a sport. The only decision that Al made independently in that series was extremely idiotic, and involved him trusting a child killer with his well-being. After this, he then proceeded help another villain, albeit one that looked like his mother, almost murder his brother. He immediately followed this by getting himself kidnapped. You'd also think that someone such as Dante, who had lived for over 400 years, would have come up with a better security system, as you'd expect, simply by probability, that someone other than Ed and Roy would have figured out the same thing that they did and infiltrated her hideout. But as long as I view the other assets of the series as being strrong, I can generally suspend my disbelief past comparatively minor points such this, especially since Ed's hypercompetence makes up for Al's incompetence.
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It was one of many unfortunate implications of the 2003 series, and no, trying to exaggerate the situation doesn't make it any less racist. The fact of the matter is Roy's angst in the 2003 series was because of the fact he killed stemmed two people of his own race, and not the other hundreds of innocent civilian lives he took. Racism can be shown without slavery, the minute you hold someone of a different race of a lower regard you are racist, then you are a racist. That's why I said it was cheap drama because at the time the writers only wanted to get some sort of reaction out of people, that they didn't care to look at what they were doing was implying.
Racism doesn't have to be blatant, but I do prefer not to refer to it unless I'm absolutely sure that it's there. Implications aren't enough, because calling a series, movie, or book, racist weakens that claim in the long run. There are a few people who will actually try to tell you that racism doesn't exist anymore, and they'll often do so by bringing up instances of the Race Card to dismiss acts of really blatant racism, and I'd rather not aid them by unintentionally crying wolf.

Gantz was racist. There was only one black character to appear throughout the entire run, and the entire motif around his character was that he wanted to rape a supporting character. X-Men First Class was also pretty questionable, in that it presented one black character and he was the only one to be killed off, while the remainder of white cast remained untouched. But saying that FMA 2003 is racist seems like a bit of a stretch.
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Its the same thing with how they treated the female characters, they did it for more cheap drama, to gain a reaction out of you, with out thinking back on what they were implying, and again you never answered my question what was the point to having Rose a character we don't know and don't care about raped? I can't even say that both brothers get the focus because the 2003 series was all about Ed. Al was just Ed's accessory.
I cared about Rose because she had two entire episodes dedicated to her development, and it's obvious that she was a good person. I also cared about Roco from the Cowboy Bebop episode, Waltz For Venus, because he had one episode dedicated to him and it was also obvious that he was a fundamentally good person.

On the other hand, Envy, in FMA Brotherhood, was given a sympathetic death, complete with sad music, and a series of physical fumbles, but it was very difficult to be sympathetic towards him. The guy had murdered God knows how many people, so it's difficult to feel sorry for him because he's jealous of humanity's concept of friendship. I was actually more sympathetic to Nagato of Fushigi Yuugi, a notoriously poorly done Sympathetic Villain, because he had a genuine Freudian Excuse. Also, I agree with you about Al being an accessory, and that’s one of the things that Brotherhood does better than FMA 2003. He was much more capable of making his own decisions in Brotherhood, though in terms of screen time, Al appeared about as much as Ed, in the 2003 series, and it’s thematically focused on their relationship, which is why I say that the show focused on both of the brothers.
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He didn't brood, he even says that on the last points in the movie. He just moved on. Just because someone writes a book on an event in their lives doesn't mean that they haven't already moved on from it.
Spoiler for Grave of the Fireflies:

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Considering your attempts to clarify only consist of you saying its lighthearted and therefore that makes it bad, or not as good, I've gotta wonder about that.
I've brought up numerous examples of dark series, such as Basilisk, that I dislike and light works of fiction, such as Superman, that I do like. It's just that multiple people have assumed that I'm lying about my own opinion or that I don't know what I like.

Last edited by LunarMoon; 2011-10-28 at 16:36.
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Old 2011-10-30, 10:08   Link #287
wisteria233
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
To be honest, I was only aware of the comment at the end, in which I mentioned that FMA 2003, established pathos via tragedy, while I wasn’t affected by Brotherhood’s pathos at all. Originally, I was going to simply end that sentence with the word “pathos”, but I felt that I needed to mention the method through which it actually establishes pathos, so it was changed to “pathos via tragedy”. There are definitely other ways to establish pathos other than tragedy, such as the pathos established by wanting to see Rocky win the boxing championship, or by anything marked as a Crowning Moment of Heartwarming, but I don’t believe that Brotherhood really established any pathos well enough for me to be emotionally effected. For the reason mentioned above, the entire flame war came off to me, as similar to an excerpt from the Boondocks-

MLK: …although our movement may come off as extremely liberal to some-
O’ Reilly: Do you love America?
MLK: I’m sorry-
O’ Reilly: Why can’t liberals ever answer that question? Say you love America! Say it!

And the entire discussion becomes based around something that amounted to a throwaway comment.

Knowing that I actually did speak about Brotherhood’s lighthearted atmosphere does inform me that someone could have actually misinterpreted the post, in a manner that doesn’t involve doing so intentionally in order to start a flame war or in order to troll bait, though I don’t agree with basing the entire debate around three sentences, as if there isn’t any possible, logical reason to prefer FMA 2003 to Brotherhood. Originally, I created those three sentences as a response to the multiple people who regularly dismiss Full Metal Alchemist, and similar anime, as being “emo” or for “forcing drama”. My argument was that the tragedy in FMA 2003 wasn’t some sort of horrific flaw, but that, if anything, it provided a refreshing change from the shows that shy away from it.
No, that was why bolded your comments, your comments were not implying what you thought of quality of the work. Just what you thought of it based on the tone. You keep on implying that the 2003 series is better for being dark, instead of actually judging the series by execution.

Also if you think that anime using drama and tragedy to invoke a sense of pathos is anything new then you haven't much anime, heck you haven't read much at all. Again you aren't even considering how well that drama and tragedy fit in, with the over all narrative. Which is why I continued to ask you the what the point was to all of that drama none of which you've actually been able to answer, instead all you've done is just summarize the event, as though I've never seen the series before. As though saying it again will make it have a point. That is the reason why people call the drama and angst in the 2003 series emo, because it was simply pointless. Its ironic that you call the 2003 realistic (which I've notice that you've stopped doing so) because of its dark drama, because it simply isn't.

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The debate was over the argument that for every depressing ending, that there are 15 happy endings. Obviously there are a few bittersweet endings, or we wouldn't be having this debate over Full Metal Alchemist, but overall they're pretty rare when you look into the greater whole.
Again having a sad ending should not be the criteria that one uses to judge the overall quality of a series. And even then you're comparing western media to eastern media, which are inherently different. In eastern media having some sort of bittersweet endings is not uncommon, different people, different culture, different tastes. If you were to say that it is not uncommon for western media to have happy happy endings then okay, but not for eastern media. Western media =/= eastern media.


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On the internet, you can't infer opinions. There's no body language to non-verbally read preferences with. Most of the time you can't even tell whether someone's being sarcastic or not, so figuring out someone's opinion on a complex idea, without reading it directly, just can't be done.
You can infer a lot through words, which is why you must choose them carefully.


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I like to put things into little boxes, and I’m very clinical with how I rank things. Every work has a theme. The ideals, moral beliefs, and biases of the author will seep into a work, whether they’re aware of it or not, though some themes are more complex, more original, or better developed than others. The Godfather’s theme is, arguably, more complex and more applicable to reality than that of Rambo’s, for instance. And those three factors are generally what I’ll use to rank a work on a scale from dull, to entertaining , to great, which is a work that may or may not actually entertaining but which nonetheless expands upon important, universally human ideas. Often a great work is also a classic work that has stood the test of time for several decades. It’s not an objective or scientific scale by any means, but it is vaguely consistent.

FMA 2003 is an “entertaining” work, in my eyes, though it’s higher on the scale than many others. The ideas that it presents are used far less often than many others and, in my opinion, are developed very well, even if I can’t see it being relevant enough to become a part of human literary canon in one hundred years. FMA Brotherhood is also an “entertaining” work though I rank it lower than FMA 2003, because I find the ideas that it explores to be more commonly used. Of course, how I rank something on this scale has little to do with how much I actually enjoy it. I don’t agree with many facets of Objectivism, at all, but I still rank Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugs, as higher than the majority of the stuff that I do actually like, due to how insanely influential it’s ideas have been over the last few decades.

That’s also why I ranked the first three episodes of Fate Zero below FMA 2003. So far, it’s one of the most entertaining shows I’ve ever seen. It’s also the only one that I’m currently following and I typically catch it within thirty minutes of its NicoNico release. But it hasn’t presented its main idea yet, so I can’t fairly rate it on the scale, especially considering the fact that it’s 24 episode series and only four episodes have been released, so it wouldn’t be logical to rate the series as whole. I’m also a Type Moon fan, so I place an extra degree of work into not overrating it or allowing my biases to influence the ranking. Of course, as critically acclaimed as it is, even by Type Moon noobies, I think it’s safe to say that it really is as good as I think it is.

Spoiler for Tangent Comparison Between Fate Zero and FMA 2003:
Again how are not implying that a series being dark is what makes it better to you? You didn't like Fate/Zero until you realized that it was a dark series, what that tells me is that, a series's tone and the dark elements it implements is what you use to decide its worth not its execution of those tones and elements. You claim that you're not doing it, but then you turn around and say that that's the criteria that you use to judge a series.

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Yes, and that’s what I was asking about. I don’t see why you kept using the words “juvenile” or “childish” to describe FMA 2003, when you claimed to not care that a series is juvenile.
The reason why I said that in regards to the 2003 series was that it is a series, that is pretending to be deep and philosophical. It tries too hard to be mature, and only ends up seeming like a child who trying to come off as an adult. I don't mind childish series, so long as they are executed well.

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And that would be how I feel about Brotherhood. For whatever reason, I found it difficult to care about whether Ed and Al obtained their bodies again and was actually far more interested in watching Ling attempt to gain the imperial throne and unite the various clans of Xing. Ling and Mei just communicated the idea that they wanted to win their little war more than the brothers wanted their bodies, so I was ultimately more interested in their struggle. Of course, Ling’s ascension was only focused on again in a scene at the end of the anime, without really elaborating on what happened from there, so the plot point that could have inspired some sort of emotional reaction in me, pretty much went cold.
Well that's your opinion and your welcome to have it, just like how I say that I didn't like Ed at all in the 2003 anime, because he came off as more annoying than anything else. Also I find it funny that you say Ed and Al getting back their bodies didn't hold your interest when that's all that the 2003 series was about. Also they did show Ling a lot but it was a reoccurring sideplot. Ling outright said he needed the philosophers stone in order to become emperor, meaning that once he got the stone he would become emperor (this was outright stated). Ling's journey to find the stone was more about his own emotional growth to have the disposition of a king who actually cared about all of his subjects, rather than just his own clan.

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Ed was actually really competent. Far more so than most teenage protagonists such as Fate Route Shirou Emiya or Loyd Irving, but I do agree that Alphonse and Dante kept passing around the idiot ball as if it was a sport. The only decision that Al made independently in that series was extremely idiotic, and involved him trusting a child killer with his well-being. After this, he then proceeded help another villain, albeit one that looked like his mother, almost murder his brother. He immediately followed this by getting himself kidnapped. You'd also think that someone such as Dante, who had lived for over 400 years, would have come up with a better security system, as you'd expect, simply by probability, that someone other than Ed and Roy would have figured out the same thing that they did and infiltrated her hideout. But as long as I view the other assets of the series as being strrong, I can generally suspend my disbelief past comparatively minor points such this, especially since Ed's hypercompetence makes up for Al's incompetence.


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Racism doesn't have to be blatant, but I do prefer not to refer to it unless I'm absolutely sure that it's there. Implications aren't enough, because calling a series, movie, or book, racist weakens that claim in the long run. There are a few people who will actually try to tell you that racism doesn't exist anymore, and they'll often do so by bringing up instances of the Race Card to dismiss acts of really blatant racism, and I'd rather not aid them by unintentionally crying wolf.
Actually, implications are enough, racism is racism is racism, it doesn't have blatant, but then again in real life racism isn't always blatant. And no calling a series, racist doesn't weaken a claim in the long run, if anything it only makes it more obvious. Example Gone with the Wind, still very much considered racist years after people first pointed it out; Song of the South still considered very much racist. Japan in itself is a very racist country 2. People who claim that racism no longer exists are living in a fantasy world. And even then what do they have to do with what we're talking about?

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Gantz was racist. There was only one black character to appear throughout the entire run, and the entire motif around his character was that he wanted to rape a supporting character. X-Men First Class was also pretty questionable, in that it presented one black character and he was the only one to be killed off, while the remainder of white cast remained untouched. But saying that FMA 2003 is racist seems like a bit of a stretch.
Your examples are that of blatant racism, and like I said the minute you treat someone differently from yourself, due to race then it is racism. They had Roy beat himself up about killing two civilian doctors of his own race, but not over killing hundreds of civilians of a different race, tell me again, how is that not racist?

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I cared about Rose because she had two entire episodes dedicated to her development, and it's obvious that she was a good person. I also cared about Roco from the Cowboy Bebop episode, Waltz For Venus, because he had one episode dedicated to him and it was also obvious that he was a fundamentally good person.
But why should I? Like I said before Rose hadn't been around for over 20 episodes, she was only there for episodes one and two, and there was no effort made in those 20 episodes to make her an important character to the Elric brothers. So again I'm asking you what was the point to using her?

Quote:
On the other hand, Envy, in FMA Brotherhood, was given a sympathetic death, complete with sad music, and a series of physical fumbles, but it was very difficult to be sympathetic towards him. The guy had murdered God knows how many people, so it's difficult to feel sorry for him because he's jealous of humanity's concept of friendship. I was actually more sympathetic to Nagato of Fushigi Yuugi, a notoriously poorly done Sympathetic Villain, because he had a genuine Freudian Excuse. Also, I agree with you about Al being an accessory, and that’s one of the things that Brotherhood does better than FMA 2003. He was much more capable of making his own decisions in Brotherhood, though in terms of screen time, Al appeared about as much as Ed, in the 2003 series, and it’s thematically focused on their relationship, which is why I say that the show focused on both of the brothers.
Good, your actually not supposed to feel bad for Envy. They made it clear that Envy was a heartless killer, who you shouldn't have a lick of sympathy for him. Or are you forgetting the fact that the reason why they had such a hard time deciding on which of them should kill Envy was because they all wanted to kill him, for what he did. His death is supposed to feel satisfying.

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Spoiler for Grave of the Fireflies:
This movie is an autobiography so I wonder how the heck their souls reunited in the after life, when he goes to the post office and finds out that his father died. You do realize that the person this series was based on is also still alive, right?

Quote:
I've brought up numerous examples of dark series, such as Basilisk, that I dislike and light works of fiction, such as Superman, that I do like. It's just that multiple people have assumed that I'm lying about my own opinion or that I don't know what I like.
Because you outright that a series being dark is the criteria that you judge it by, not its execution, that is why people have been calling you out on it.
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Old 2012-04-03, 15:02   Link #288
RomanHeretic
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Our Guild on FFn.
Yo peeps. My friend and I are starting a FMA RP. It's open to all.

http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=793
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Old 2012-05-23, 11:16   Link #289
JadenKorr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood PSP Game on PC

Hi all!

You know the game for the PSP Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood? I think it was released only in Japan, the USA and England.

I created a video tutorial on how to run the game on a PC through an emulator Jpcsp.

Enjoy in 1080p Full HD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5t8MiXdLAY&hd=1

All links for programs are in description.


Trailer for PSP Game Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce_SK-CdI5A&hd=1

and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7zpTFbFcaI
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Old 2013-04-15, 02:34   Link #290
Gintokifan22
Gintoki fan
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Just got done watching the series, gotta say its become a favorite of mine. Ed and Roy are my favorite characters, all of them in a way have charm though and love the comedy and action scenes. Animation did get a little odd at times whenever they'd do a joke about Ed being short it does other than that. Now that I've watched the entire series, I miss it *cries*
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Fullmetal Alchemest - Ed fan. Pokemon - Ash fan.
One Piece - Luffy fan. Inazuma Eleven - Endou fan.
Marchen Awakens Romance - Ginta fan.

Pairings I support : Ed x winry. Ash x Serena. Endou x Natsumi. Ginta x Dorothy fan. Luffy x Hancock.
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