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Old 2011-10-30, 00:15   Link #41
Proto
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Quote:
but we can surmise from the fact that Lancer can cut said Pole Phantasm is that they're not A-rank NPs.
From what little we could see he cut it with Gae Dearg, so I'm assuming he dispelled whatever Berseker did to the pole and returned it to its original state.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:16   Link #42
ZeKeR
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
You forgot that Herakles cannot even be physically injured by Noble Phantasms or attacks BELOW A-Rank.

Sure, Zero Berserker can turn anything into a Noble Phantasm, but we can surmise from the fact that Lancer can cut said Pole Phantasm is that they're not A-rank NPs.

Zero Berserker does seem to be far more skillful in weapon arts compared to Herakles, but having skill is useless when it won't be able to even injure him, much less kill him 10 times.
well if we put it in another light....

Heracles was a hero yet his only experience was taking on the challenges, most notably, ripping the Nemean Lion apart without even using a blade.

THIS berserker is a knight, and I know who in the world he is (sorry but if I touch on that subject, a mod carrying Enkidu will probably arrive). he has skill to be a swordsman but I think he can match Gilgamesh in terms of combat prowess: Gil can throw his weapons and the direct opposite of him, Berserker can simply hold it and it becomes his for the duration in his hand. if hypothesis is correct, if you throw an A class polearm, lets say a naginata, at him and he picks it up, the A class weapon is his to hold as long as it doesnt dissipate.

I'm quite surprised Gil didnt take out Ea or bind that knight with Enkidu.

lastly, I really love Berserker's armor.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:24   Link #43
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Hmm...It's a reverse harem for Saber ^_^.

Also, somebody keep saying that F/SN Berserker has 9 to 10 lives. Doesn't he actually have 12 lives? (correct me if I'm wrong). Just want to clear something.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:27   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
You forgot that Herakles cannot even be physically injured by Noble Phantasms or attacks BELOW A-Rank.

Sure, Zero Berserker can turn anything into a Noble Phantasm, but we can surmise from the fact that Lancer can cut said Pole Phantasm is that they're not A-rank NPs.

Zero Berserker does seem to be far more skillful in weapon arts compared to Herakles, but having skill is useless when it won't be able to even injure him, much less kill him 10 times.
Spoiler for for "Berserker ability":
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:31   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Hmm...It's a reverse harem for Saber ^_^.

Also, somebody keep saying that F/SN Berserker has 9 to 10 lives. Doesn't he actually have 12 lives? (correct me if I'm wrong). Just want to clear something.
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:33   Link #46
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
well if we put it in another light....

Heracles was a hero yet his only experience was taking on the challenges, most notably, ripping the Nemean Lion apart without even using a blade.

THIS berserker is a knight, and I know who in the world he is (sorry but if I touch on that subject, a mod carrying Enkidu will probably arrive). he has skill to be a swordsman but I think he can match Gilgamesh in terms of combat prowess: Gil can throw his weapons and the direct opposite of him, Berserker can simply hold it and it becomes his for the duration in his hand. if hypothesis is correct, if you throw an A class polearm, lets say a naginata, at him and he picks it up, the A class weapon is his to hold as long as it doesnt dissipate.
If your hypothesis is correct, that only means that Zero Berserker... definitely cannot defeat Herakles.

Zero Berserker's ability to wield other NPs and presumably use them to the level of the weapon requires him to have access to those weapons... Only 2 Servants actually has that kind of access... Gilgamesh and FSN Archer.

Thus meaning that in a straight-up battle between Berserkers without Gil or Archer deciding to just leave their weapons around, Zero Berserker wouldn't be able to damage Herakles, and can at best, run him round with superior skill, but insufficient destructive power.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
I'm quite surprised Gil didnt take out Ea or bind that knight with Enkidu.
Gilgamesh wasn't even close to being serious against Berserker, he was just being mad as fuck as arrogant. He clearly thinks Berserker as a hero way way way way below his class and it made him mad as hell he was forced to even open his Gate bigger, from his parting words.

Full-Stream GoB, Ea and Enkidu are his when he's actually taking things seriously... as in like almost never.
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Last edited by james0246; 2011-10-31 at 11:12. Reason: removed deleted response...
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:36   Link #47
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
He have 11 extra lives plus his current ones. And it is said that because of Illya's ability as a mage, Berserker can actually regenerate those lost lives should he lose some.
Yep, that's what I mean. Thanx for the confirmation and additional information of Ilya ^_^.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:37   Link #48
Lumir
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
CGzerker can only grab Noble Phantasms not being wielded like the ones Gilgamesh carelessly tosses. That's why Rider's chariot noble phantasm doesn't magically become Berserker's when he got stomped.

Also, Heracles was actually in-game as fast as Saber was (and faster when Mad Enhanced activated instead of just sanity removed). The anime was a rather poor representation. Remember, Heracles has the stats to be any class except Caster. This means he could even be a Lancer which is, by definition, the fastest class.

Besides, that rock sword isn't a noble phantasm. Heracles just swings it ultra hard.
Who said he touched the chariot? Looks like he just got ran over. Heracles was never lancer though so why bring it up? And as for the rock sword i was just saying he i could imagine him taking it for his own leaving FSN berserker with just his hands. And if i recall correctly if berserker in FSN was so fast why did he get dodge so many time from non-archer classes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
You forgot that Herakles cannot even be physically injured by Noble Phantasms or attacks BELOW A-Rank.

Sure, Zero Berserker can turn anything into a Noble Phantasm, but we can surmise from the fact that Lancer can cut said Pole Phantasm is that they're not A-rank NPs.

Zero Berserker does seem to be far more skillful in weapon arts compared to Herakles, but having skill is useless when it won't be able to even injure him, much less kill him 10 times.
Like someone else said, whose to say this berserker's noble phantasm is below A-? Lancer cut his pole due to his noble phantasm's ability as someone else pointed out.

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Originally Posted by fedor mma View Post
Uh. FSN Berserker was faster than fsn archer. The one thing you CANT call FSN berserker is slow. He is probably faster than zero berserker as well.
Being dodged countless times, being his size, how can you call him fast? Archer took 2 lives if i recall correctly, guess that makes his noble phantasms all A- ranked or above, and the fact he took two means he was faster, because if not he would have died without taking any of berserkers lives IMO.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:39   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
If your hypothesis is correct, that only means that Zero Berserker... definitely cannot defeat Herakles.
Shouldn't be. He's like Vin Diesel, he can kill you with anything in the room. Hell if a couple of squirrels just so happened to pass by he'd pick them up and use them like numb-chuks and probably take a few of Hercules' lives. Then he'll drop it and use that piece of rock over there to take another. I was under the impression that whatever he wields is just as good as any regular noble phantasm given that it matched Saber's sword. Lancer's lance on the other hand "negates" any magic so that would be a good counter against berserker.

Quote:
Thus meaning that in a straight-up battle between Berserkers without Gil or Archer deciding to just leave their weapons around, Zero Berserker wouldn't be able to damage Herakles, and can at best, run him round with superior skill, but insufficient destructive power.
I'm pretty sure as a knight he has his own weapon but like Saber keeps it hidden to protect his identity.

Quote:
Gilgamesh wasn't even close to being serious against Berserker, he was just being mad as fuck as arrogant. He clearly thinks Berserker as a hero way way way way below his class and it made him mad as hell he was forced to even open his Gate bigger, from his parting words.

Full-Stream GoB, Ea and Enkidu are his when he's actually taking things seriously... as in like almost never.
But he's an archer class right? So his melee skills shouldn't even be considered as he would be outclassed by Berserker in an actual straight fight so it makes sense he'd used it as a very very last resort.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:45   Link #50
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Lumir View Post
Who said he touched the chariot? Looks like he just got ran over. Heracles was never lancer though so why bring it up? And as for the rock sword i was just saying he i could imagine him taking it for his own leaving FSN berserker with just his hands. And if i recall correctly if berserker in FSN was so fast why did he get dodge so many time from non-archer classes?
Skill.

Or innate abilities, if you put it in a different way.

It's the same as how Archer could hold off Lancer despite being significantly slower than him, because his "Mind's Eye" meant that he's always calm and analytical in battle to overcome differences in physical ability with tactics.

Saber has her "Battle Instincts" and natural skill as a knight that allows her to take advantage of her advantages and hold off Berserker despite being weaker in everything.

The real best example is actually Assassin/Sasaki. Despite being much weaker in strength compared to every other Servant without even a legendary weapon... he runs round every other Servant in FSN by pure skill in swordsmanship.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I was under the impression that whatever he wields is just as good as any regular noble phantasm given that it matched Saber's sword.
Invisible Air is 'C Rank.' Ever wondered why Heracles was never even injured even though Saber did hit him several times with Invisible Air in FSN? The wind actually reduces the destructive power of Excalibur.

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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I'm pretty sure as a knight he has his own weapon but like Saber keeps it hidden to protect his identity.
Assume he has one NP that can kill Heracles one time. Or seven times, even.

Heracles builds resistance to anything that had killed him before... even if it's used more potently the 2nd time.

How does Zero Berserker kill him the remaining other times without relying on GoB/UBW NPs?
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Last edited by Nightengale; 2011-10-30 at 00:58.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:46   Link #51
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Let's not assume wielding other things as noble phantasms is Berserkers only noble phantasm. As someone mentioned, he is a knight and wouldn't be so surprising if he has his own weapon.

That aside, doesn't matter if F/SN berserker is stronger and F/Z berserker, F/Z berserker is more badass.
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Old 2011-10-30, 00:53   Link #52
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F/Z Berserker>>>>>>>FS/N Berserker. Not even close.

This was an insane episode. Absolutely insane. Loved every minute of it. We get a good glimpse of each Servant's powers as well as some awesome action scenes.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:03   Link #53
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Assume he has one NP that can kill Heracles one time. Or seven times, even.

Heracles builds resistance to anything that had killed him before... even if it's used more potently the 2nd time.

How does Zero Berserker kill him the remaining other times without relying on GoB/UBW NPs?
So if he grabs a jet fighter or a carrier what rank would those be?

I mean since he can literally use anything there is so long as his master can supply the mana (theoretically) eventually he would wear Hercules down and bring his lives down since he'd be using a different weapon every time no?

Then again though all of these servants have various counters/anti-counters and lancer with his anti-magic weapon seems to be the best counter just like Berserker being capable of countering Archer.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:08   Link #54
StarTouch
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I think comparisons between the two berserkers are cool and all but to bluntly state, "X > Z" is going nowhere imo. It's really hard to tell who's better as match-ups (versus "ABC" hero) may be favourable for one over the other. I imagine F/Z Berserker would have a better chance against Gil than F/SN Berserker but F/SN Berserker could probably fare better against F/SN Lancer as compared to F/Z Berserker.

Sure, F/SN zerker has probably the better raw strength and the twelve labours to outlast an opponent. It'd be fantastic against certain heroes. F/Z zerker has his unique "imma grab stuff and own with it" NP, that black fog which hides his status / identity / etc (which I don't think gets enough credit. It's certainly troublesome to fight against an unknown opponent with hidden stats in a tactical / psychological fight to the death) and quite possibly one last NP that he has yet to whip out (he pretty much looks like a knight so I'm not surprised if he's gonna pull out some weapon later on in the series).

Personally, I'm now a big fan of F/Z zerker but I'm definitely not be putting him ahead of F/SN zerker (or vice versa). I think they're both juggernauts with very different skill sets and abilities.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:09   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
How does Zero Berserker kill him the remaining other times without relying on GoB/UBW NPs?
Well. you have to remember that FSN Berserker was instant killed x7 by a mere copy of a noble phantasm that can't be any more powerful than Excalibur. And that noble phantasm didn't have any special traits like say.. +9 against son of Zeus either. Not to mention that it was copied by someone who just started getting used to his power.

So any noble phantasm that is sufficiently powerful can instant kill FSN Berserker.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:16   Link #56
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
So if he grabs a jet fighter or a carrier what rank would those be?

I mean since he can literally use anything there is so long as his master can supply the mana (theoretically) eventually he would wear Hercules down and bring his lives down since he'd be using a different weapon every time no?
We can't complete this discussion because we have no knowledge on how the 'transformation' into a NP works.

Does it scale in accordance to the type of things he hold ( Beretta M9 => E rank, Desert Eagle = D Rank, Anti-Tank Rifle = B rank? ) or is there a set limit to the level of the NP he can turn things to? ( Does Carriers/Jet Fighters become Conceptual Weapons just because he holds them? )

Like I said, if Zero Berserker can upgrade ranks of what he wields as NPs and scales them accordingly... then he's pretty much the 2nd most broken Servant out there. ( Gil will always be the most broken. )

Do note however, that it's not just a matter of transforming normal things to NP. God Hand works like a Conceptual Weapon in the fact that it doesn't just protect, but 'negates' anything below A rank, so it's not just a matter of upping the destructive power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Then again though all of these servants have various counters/anti-counters and lancer with his anti-magic weapon seems to be the best counter just like Berserker being capable of countering Archer.
It's rather ironic really, because Zero Berserker is a natural counter to GoB... but it works the other way round for UBW because FSN Archer can make his NPs explode on contact.

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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Well. you have to remember that FSN Berserker was instant killed x7 by a mere copy of a noble phantasm that can't be any more powerful than Excalibur. And that noble phantasm didn't have any special traits like say.. +9 against son of Zeus either. Not to mention that it was copied by someone who just started getting used to his power.

So any noble phantasm that is sufficiently powerful can instant kill FSN Berserker.
That's why I said 'assumption of Zero Berserker having ONE NP capable of killing Berserker X < 12 times.'

This whole argument is redundant if Zero Berserker possesses something like Excaliblast or Ea, which we know are more than capable of depleting all 12 lives of Heracles in one release.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:16   Link #57
Kokukirin
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Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
F/Z Berserker>>>>>>>FS/N Berserker. Not even close.

This was an insane episode. Absolutely insane. Loved every minute of it. We get a good glimpse of each Servant's powers as well as some awesome action scenes.
Wut?

In F/SN, Rin decided to leave her Archer behind just to buy time to escape from Berserker. If she was facing F/Z Berserker instead, would she have done the same?

F/Z Berserker is so overrated because of he held Gilgamesh, but that's mostly due to his NP advantage. Overall he is no match against the brute strength of F/SN Berserker.
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:31   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Wut?

In F/SN, Rin decided to leave her Archer behind just to buy time to escape from Berserker. If she was facing F/Z Berserker instead, would she have done the same?

F/Z Berserker is so overrated because of he held Gilgamesh, but that's mostly due to his NP advantage. Overall he is no match against the brute strength of F/SN Berserker.
FS/N Archer would have been wrecked by F/Z Berserker. F/Z Berserker just wiped the floor(from what we've seen anyway) with Archer. I can't imagine UBW having any sort of advantage compared to Bablyon in this case. The beauty of F/Z Berserker is that ridiculously high skill level.

Spoiler for Later info from wiki on F/Z Berserker's NP:


Also I'm not sure if this would be considered novel spoilers but might as well be safe anyway, the way Zero's "Possesion" NP works is
Spoiler for How it works:
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:32   Link #59
Village Idiot
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
We can't complete this discussion because we have no knowledge on how the 'transformation' into a NP works.

Does it scale in accordance to the type of things he hold ( Beretta M9 => E rank, Desert Eagle = D Rank, Anti-Tank Rifle = B rank? ) or is there a set limit to the level of the NP he can turn things to? ( Does Carriers/Jet Fighters become Conceptual Weapons just because he holds them? )

Like I said, if Zero Berserker can upgrade ranks of what he wields as NPs and scales them accordingly... then he's pretty much the 2nd most broken Servant out there. ( Gil will always be the most broken. )
Any non-NPs turn into (IIRC) D-rank NPs regardless of the difference in destructive capability.

ie: If he grabs an m16, it'll be a D-rank NP. If he grabs a concrete block, its also a D-rank NP.

If Zero Berserker grabs a NP, it retains its current rank. So if he grabbed Excalibur, it'll retain its A++ rank
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Old 2011-10-30, 01:35   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Wut?

In F/SN, Rin decided to leave her Archer behind just to buy time to escape from Berserker. If she was facing F/Z Berserker instead, would she have done the same?

F/Z Berserker is so overrated because of he held Gilgamesh, but that's mostly due to his NP advantage. Overall he is no match against the brute strength of F/SN Berserker.
Fate stay night berserker is mad strong. He broke Gils chains. Also physically I doubt any servant is stronger then FSN berserker. F/Z berserker is badass though.
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