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Old 2011-10-30, 16:50   Link #81
pikachuwei
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
If by "at his best" you mean without using UBW, sure. Because there's absolutely zero reason why Gilgamesh would be able to Gate of Babylon him to death, yet Archer wouldn't be able to Unlimited Blade Works him to death. Remember, the scene in the anime did not happen in the game.
I didnt watch the anime

and iirc didnt Archer state even with UBW he is no match for the other Servants because he is not a master of the weapons, so against one who specialized in combat with one weapon UBW is not as effective

UBW overpowered Gilgamesh and GoB because Gilgamesh, like Archer, was not skilled in the use of one weapon.

And it would be harder for Archer to UBW Heracles to death than Gil to GoB him to death. Remember that UBW downgrades all the NPs by 1 rank, God Hand protects against any Noble Phantasm below A rank so Archer can only project Noble Phantasms with a rank of A+ or above to hurt Heracles (A rank would be downgraded to a B+ NP). And there aren't that many A rank NPs to begin with. Even Gate of Babylon which contains all the weapons at original power, takes several swords to shave off one of Heracles' lives. And Heracles was still making headway against Gate of Babylon, Gilgamesh had to use Enkidu to restrain Heracles right before the latter was about to bash Gilgamesh into bloody paste. Archer doesn't have Enkidu so that would be a problem
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Old 2011-10-30, 16:57   Link #82
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can't he Broken Phantasm Herc to death in UBW ? How did that work again ?


Quote:
Archer doesn't have Enkidu so that would be a problem
by the way - can't he trace it ?
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Old 2011-10-30, 17:39   Link #83
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Originally Posted by pikachuwei View Post
UBW overpowered Gilgamesh and GoB because Gilgamesh, like Archer, was not skilled in the use of one weapon.
I'm pretty sure Archer gains the skills of the original wielder when he traces a weapon. It just, as you said, downgrades a rank. That limits his options, but he can easily just use a Broken Phantasm like in UBW and take off a life with random weapons just via skill. And if he has anything similar to Caliburn (since I believe it's stated that he forgot how to trace Caliburn, so that one would be out), we know that's effective against Berserker.
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Old 2011-10-30, 18:28   Link #84
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Old 2011-10-30, 21:27   Link #85
pikachuwei
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I'm pretty sure Archer gains the skills of the original wielder when he traces a weapon. It just, as you said, downgrades a rank. That limits his options, but he can easily just use a Broken Phantasm like in UBW and take off a life with random weapons just via skill. And if he has anything similar to Caliburn (since I believe it's stated that he forgot how to trace Caliburn, so that one would be out), we know that's effective against Berserker.
I don't recall that Archer gains all the skills of the original wielder, iirc some of the weapon's "memories" flow back into him and he can use the weapon competently, but against the original wielder his skill would be lower.
Otherwise, Trace Mononoshizao, spam Tsubame Gaeshi trololol.
I mean why didn't Archer Trace Gae Bolg and fight Lancer with it then? If he could gain all the same skill as Lancer after tracing his weapon it would have been a virtual stalemate. Sure traced Gae Bolg would be 1 rank down but as Shirou proved the copy can clash with the original quite well when it was UBW vs GoB.

And Broken Phantasm requires a large amount of Prana (it being basically a prana bomb). Even if he uses it theres no guarantee one B rank Noble Phantasm Broken to A rank will take out Heracles' lives, it took 5 A rank spells at once from Rin to take one of Heracles's lives and Gilgamesh had to use several Noble Phantasms every time he took a life (Heracles was still living after being held by Enkidu and hit by 22 of Gilgamesh's hand-picked Noble Phantasms, this AFTER already losing god knows how many lives as he was advancing on Gilgamesh)
Archer may very well run out of Prana or Heracles catches up to him before he can kill him.

As for tracing Enkidu, I'm not sure. Did Archer ever see Gilgamesh use it? Well but Shirou did... damm you time paradoxes.
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Old 2011-11-01, 13:30   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
can't he Broken Phantasm Herc to death in UBW ? How did that work again ?


by the way - can't he trace it ?
i think he needs to understand something before he can trace it.
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Old 2011-11-06, 18:53   Link #87
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Episode 6's closing scene was very interesting to me as a Fate/Stay Night Visual Novel player who is experiencing Fate/Zero for the first time. One of the reasons being that it was a lengthy conversation between Kotomine and Gilgamesh, two of my favourite characters in F/SN, where, despite their partnership, we rarely saw them interact all that much. Just seeing them talking to each other that much was rewarding as a fan of the VN, but the contents of the conversation were also particularly interesting. Because for all of my theories and conjectures on how Kotomine came to be the man we see in F/SN, I never imagined Gilgamesh would've had a hand in it. I figured Kotomine would reach his F/SN mindset mostly on his own and then partner with Gilgamesh after Tokiomi's departure due to their then similar nature.

So yeah, it's pretty interesting to see Gil actually playing a part in shaping the Kotomine we see in F/SN, questioning the views on morality that'd been imposed on him and opening up his mind so that he might embrace the search for pleasure. It's also worth noting how this scene might actually fit Gil's alleged alignment of Chaotic Good, unlike the vast majority of the stuff he did in F/SN. I guess being bathed by all the evils in the world did have some effect on him, or at least more than he would like to admit. In fact, he too appears to have a somewhat different mindset from what we see from him in F/SN. There he claims the modern world to be filled to the brim with meaningless extras, whereas here he almost chooses to focus on the glass half-full perspective instead, claiming that one or two among the masses are bound to be interesting and therefore worth his time. Though I guess already having spent a decade amidst said modern world might also be part of the reason why he seems to have an even lesser opinion of it in the sequel.
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Old 2011-11-06, 23:07   Link #88
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I think that was the beginning of their little arrangement. I suspect that Kirei and Gil will betray Tokiomi at some point too.
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Old 2011-11-06, 23:42   Link #89
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Yeah, Gilgamesh's first line alone was telling of that and basically a (rather clever) metaphor for the reason why Gil will end up choosing Kotomine over Tokiomi: "Despite being few in number, yours are of higher quality than those in Tokiomi's room." He's referring to the wine bottles there, but obviously there's an underlying meaning that can also be taken as referring to the individuals themselves. Which is to say, even though Kotomine is in a seemingly a lesser position compared to Tokiomi (being his apprentice and all), he's actually a much more interesting and worthwhile individual in Gil's eyes.

Definitely looking forward to that likely betrayal somewhere down the line (I actually have a vague recollection of Kotomine confessing something to that extent to Rin in F/SN, though my memory of it isn't reliable enough for me to be sure of it), though I hope we still get to see some more of Tokiomi beforehand. I get that his character is supposed to be boring, being the quintessential traditional and exemplary magus and all, but a little more characterisation wouldn't hurt. Not to mention it'd be nice to see those fire magic skills of his in action before he bites the dust.
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Old 2011-11-06, 23:47   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Yeah, Gilgamesh's first line alone was telling of that and basically a (rather clever) metaphor for the reason why Gil will end up choosing Kotomine over Tokiomi: "Despite being few in number, yours are of higher quality than those in Tokiomi's room." He's referring to the wine bottles there, but obviously there's an underlying meaning that can also be taken as referring to the individuals themselves. Which is to say, even though Kotomine is in a seemingly a lesser position compared to Tokiomi (being his apprentice and all), he's actually a much more interesting and worthwhile individual in Gil's eyes.
I didn't really catch that the first time I read it but it's an interesting take. It could also be referring to Gil's take on humanity as a whole that he articulates in FSN.
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Old 2011-11-07, 02:41   Link #91
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I always found it a little bit difficult to believe that Archer (Emiya) would not even pose a match for other servants.

Yes, Archer's stats are on the low side of the scale; however, what he lacks in raw firepower he more than makes up for in skill and finesse. I can't imagine the battle-hardened warrior engaging in a fight without gaining some sort of advantage from UBW (where I can agree on is whether or not UBW provides enough of a boon to help Archer win).

As he fights more and more battles, he is only going to get stronger and stronger all-the-while he is adding more weapons to his armory. I'd argue that more likely than not, he will have some sort of weapon that can give him a boost over his opponent.

In the event that he does not, he still has many other options at his disposal. He is an Archer, after all. Who says he needs to engage his opponent in direct combat (though he is certainly not lacking in this department, being able to fend off Cuchulain's ridiculously fast attacks through sheer badassery)? He has Broken Phantasms such as Hrunting and Caladbolg at his disposal while UBW can provide suppressive fire (though I acknowledge the latter's use will diminish against agile servants or strong ones like Zero Berserker).

Worse comes to worse, he can always trace Excalibur and force a double-KO. Still counts as a kill in my books. : P

VERY impressive considering the dude had to work from the ground-up without any divine talent or myth n' fame to help him out. Imagine what could happen if Nasu didn't gimp him with Shirou's crappy Magic Circuits!!! OP much?

: ) Part of what makes him so gar, though.
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Old 2011-11-07, 02:55   Link #92
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So I guess everyone here has read or watched the original VN or the first anime. I would like to ask you guys some question, since I think you guys might have think about them already.

So the thing I want to ask are:
What is a hero? And what does it means to be one?
What is ideal and why it is, or is not, important?
And other question related to these things.

I think the most interesting aspects of the Fate stories is the answer each of us come us, or at least make us think about it. So what is the answer you guys has reached so far?
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Old 2011-11-07, 03:01   Link #93
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What is a hero? And what does it means to be one??
Could you clarify what you mean by the question? Are you asking what the grail qualifies to be a hero (before or after it is corrupted?), or what qualities we think make or break a hero?
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Old 2011-11-07, 03:17   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Yuutsu View Post
I always found it a little bit difficult to believe that Archer (Emiya) would not even pose a match for other servants.

Yes, Archer's stats are on the low side of the scale; however, what he lacks in raw firepower he more than makes up for in skill and finesse. I can't imagine the battle-hardened warrior engaging in a fight without gaining some sort of advantage from UBW (where I can agree on is whether or not UBW provides enough of a boon to help Archer win).

As he fights more and more battles, he is only going to get stronger and stronger all-the-while he is adding more weapons to his armory. I'd argue that more likely than not, he will have some sort of weapon that can give him a boost over his opponent.

In the event that he does not, he still has many other options at his disposal. He is an Archer, after all. Who says he needs to engage his opponent in direct combat (though he is certainly not lacking in this department, being able to fend off Cuchulain's ridiculously fast attacks through sheer badassery)? He has Broken Phantasms such as Hrunting and Caladbolg at his disposal while UBW can provide suppressive fire (though I acknowledge the latter's use will diminish against agile servants or strong ones like Zero Berserker).

Worse comes to worse, he can always trace Excalibur and force a double-KO. Still counts as a kill in my books. : P

VERY impressive considering the dude had to work from the ground-up without any divine talent or myth n' fame to help him out. Imagine what could happen if Nasu didn't gimp him with Shirou's crappy Magic Circuits!!! OP much?

: ) Part of what makes him so gar, though.
Archer's greatest advantage over other servants is perhaps his adaptability. He has an immense arsenal of weapons in form of UBW. He is skilled enough to fight up close, and even better if he is at range.

Even so, after accounting for his low stat and other servants' NPs, Archer would probably rank no higher than middle the scale.
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Old 2011-11-07, 03:26   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
So I guess everyone here has read or watched the original VN or the first anime. I would like to ask you guys some question, since I think you guys might have think about them already.

So the thing I want to ask are:
What is a hero? And what does it means to be one?
What is ideal and why it is, or is not, important?
A hero is someone who follows his ideals to the very end for the greater good, no matter the obstacles.

... Is probably the conclusion most draw out of F/SN.

I actually did not find any answer out of reading F/SN, despite the question of what a hero "is" being a major point. A hero is merely a term used to describe someone striving for the good of someone or something - such a subjective term can thus flop around, and change based on various conditions. For me, the only thing that consistently rings true for a "hero" is the desire to save or help others more than ones own self, even if the motivation to do so is spawned from a selfish desire.

I found a simpler answer for the question of ideals - they have their place, just as any childhood dream. But in the end, ideals and dreams are distant wishes and take a second seat to reality. It is better to make ones ideal something that can coexist with reality.


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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Archer's greatest advantage over other servants is perhaps his adaptability. He has an immense arsenal of weapons in form of UBW. He is skilled enough to fight up close, and even better if he is at range.

Even so, after accounting for his low stat and other servants' NPs, Archer would probably rank no higher than middle the scale.
If we're not taking into account plot induced stupidity, Archer is easily top-tier. In F/SN, only Heracles, Gil, Saber and maybe Caster with full prana could defeat him consistently.

Theoretically, Archer could even defeat some of those with relative ease - the fact he doesn't is pretty mind boggling. As mentioned earlier, he should be fully capable of tracing NP's like gae bolg. I guess he doesn't do this in the game for the same reason Lancer doesn't greet everyone with a spear to the heart...
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Old 2011-11-07, 12:57   Link #96
Yuutsu
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Even so, after accounting for his low stat and other servants' NPs, Archer would probably rank no higher than middle the scale.
Agreed. Skills can only take you so far when you have absolutely unreasonable servants like Zero Rider or Zero Berserker. Fighting against those monsters, I don't even the stat boost from being a legitimate servant as opposed to a counter-guardian would be enough (not to mention Shirou doesn't enjoy any fame boost at all).
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Old 2011-11-07, 13:09   Link #97
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Yeah, Gilgamesh's first line alone was telling of that and basically a (rather clever) metaphor for the reason why Gil will end up choosing Kotomine over Tokiomi: "Despite being few in number, yours are of higher quality than those in Tokiomi's room." He's referring to the wine bottles there, but obviously there's an underlying meaning that can also be taken as referring to the individuals themselves. Which is to say, even though Kotomine is in a seemingly a lesser position compared to Tokiomi (being his apprentice and all), he's actually a much more interesting and worthwhile individual in Gil's eyes.

Definitely looking forward to that likely betrayal somewhere down the line (I actually have a vague recollection of Kotomine confessing something to that extent to Rin in F/SN, though my memory of it isn't reliable enough for me to be sure of it), though I hope we still get to see some more of Tokiomi beforehand. I get that his character is supposed to be boring, being the quintessential traditional and exemplary magus and all, but a little more characterisation wouldn't hurt. Not to mention it'd be nice to see those fire magic skills of his in action before he bites the dust.
i thought he was talking to himself finding it ironic that he was killed by the same Dagger he gave Rin which was given to him by Tokiomi and which he used to killed Tokiomi.
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Old 2011-11-07, 14:55   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Yuutsu View Post
Could you clarify what you mean by the question? Are you asking what the grail qualifies to be a hero (before or after it is corrupted?), or what qualities we think make or break a hero?
Well, I mean your own answer after reading through Fate/Stay Night. Like Shirou/Archer who has come up with his own answer in each route, I think we all have somewhat definition for who qualifies to be a hero.

For me, it is someone who believe in his good deeds and ideal and follow through it regardless of how impossible it is. Someone who accomplish the impossible.
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Old 2011-11-07, 17:15   Link #99
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Episode 6's closing scene was very interesting to me as a Fate/Stay Night Visual Novel player who is experiencing Fate/Zero for the first time. One of the reasons being that it was a lengthy conversation between Kotomine and Gilgamesh, two of my favourite characters in F/SN, where, despite their partnership, we rarely saw them interact all that much. Just seeing them talking to each other that much was rewarding as a fan of the VN, but the contents of the conversation were also particularly interesting. Because for all of my theories and conjectures on how Kotomine came to be the man we see in F/SN, I never imagined Gilgamesh would've had a hand in it. I figured Kotomine would reach his F/SN mindset mostly on his own and then partner with Gilgamesh after Tokiomi's departure due to their then similar nature.

So yeah, it's pretty interesting to see Gil actually playing a part in shaping the Kotomine we see in F/SN, questioning the views on morality that'd been imposed on him and opening up his mind so that he might embrace the search for pleasure. It's also worth noting how this scene might actually fit Gil's alleged alignment of Chaotic Good, unlike the vast majority of the stuff he did in F/SN. I guess being bathed by all the evils in the world did have some effect on him, or at least more than he would like to admit. In fact, he too appears to have a somewhat different mindset from what we see from him in F/SN. There he claims the modern world to be filled to the brim with meaningless extras, whereas here he almost chooses to focus on the glass half-full perspective instead, claiming that one or two among the masses are bound to be interesting and therefore worth his time. Though I guess already having spent a decade amidst said modern world might also be part of the reason why he seems to have an even lesser opinion of it in the sequel.
That's the component of this episode I most enjoyed as well. I find their relationship perhaps the most intriguing part of the plot right now since I've played through F/SN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuutsu View Post
I always found it a little bit difficult to believe that Archer (Emiya) would not even pose a match for other servants.
Same here. If Gilgamesh can own most heroes with Gates of Babylon I never fully understood why UBW couldn't do the same. Especially since the latter trumped the former in the UBW route.
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Old 2011-11-07, 17:20   Link #100
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That's the component of this episode I most enjoyed as well. I find their relationship perhaps the most intriguing part of the plot right now since I've played through F/SN.



Same here. If Gilgamesh can own most heroes with Gates of Babylon I never fully understood why UBW couldn't do the same. Especially since the latter trumped the former in the UBW route.
Think Rock-Paper-Scissor
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