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Old 2011-10-31, 01:28   Link #2681
KiraYamatoFan
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I have nothing at all against Mari. In fact, I really like her character and I can't wait to see some real interaction between her and Asuka soon in oder to understand how she managed to pilot Unit 02 so easily.

Of course, Asuka needs to step her character a little bit in this series. However if they manage to do that, I would say everyone to hold on to your hats.
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Old 2011-10-31, 01:43   Link #2682
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Having watched 2.22 several times, suffice to say that despite Mari has much as a pilot (and therefore almost a Mary-sue), nevertheless she gave Shinji the spotlight because he's the star of the show, the one boy who's in the center of everything.
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Old 2011-10-31, 01:50   Link #2683
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
And movies written by the show's creators aren't fanfics.
People said Anno is a changed man, a different person! It's a different person making a story up about Evangelion! Sounds like fanfic to me .
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Old 2011-10-31, 08:31   Link #2684
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Try reading it again.
Characters created by the original creators aren't fanfic inserts.
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Old 2011-10-31, 13:30   Link #2685
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But I never said it was.

That's why I listed them separately.

Besides in all seriousness, I just feel she has the character quality of one, hence the comparison. Or maybe worse, depending on what you're comparing it to.

So arguing definitions won't work here.
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Old 2011-11-01, 21:11   Link #2686
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
But I never said it was.

That's why I listed them separately.

Besides in all seriousness, I just feel she has the character quality of one, hence the comparison. Or maybe worse, depending on what you're comparing it to.

So arguing definitions won't work here.
What do you feel the attributes of a "character" are?
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Old 2011-11-01, 23:12   Link #2687
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A person that makes a contribution to the story, someone with a defined personality and acts as such.
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Old 2011-11-02, 08:58   Link #2688
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
A person that makes a contribution to the story, someone with a defined personality and acts as such.
Then Mari's a character. She killed an angel and gave Shinji encouragement when he needed it (story contribution). She's also all gung-ho and crazy, and that's her personality. She acted gung-ho and crazy, too.

Maybe she's not a character you like, maybe you think that she took time away from other, more-deserving characters...but she IS a character.
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Old 2011-11-02, 11:12   Link #2689
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Hah, I knew you'd bring that up.

Yes, I'm aware she does those things. But if you seriously believe that adds any substance to the story (aka "contribute"), especially the laughable speech to Shinji part (wait, random inspiration by some random stranger when nobody else would work, and was just lifted from Kaiji?), then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Though while she does technically exist in the movie and there are technically points that involve her, and she might even count as some kind of entity that appears in the movie, she hardly makes any difference to me outside of a prop.

It is not enough to exist and do something, otherwise every extra and bystander would be considered a character. Mari is more than this, so... a glorified extra she is.
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Old 2011-11-02, 11:47   Link #2690
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Then Mari's a character. She killed an angel and gave Shinji encouragement when he needed it (story contribution).
...Did she really? All I heard in that scene was "Oh hey you're that other pilot whom I noticed was missing during the fight? What, you don't wanna fight? Okay, then you should get to safety. Here, let me give you a h-OLY CRAP DID THAT ANGEL JUST DEVOUR UNIT 00?!"
...Slightly exaggerated that last part, but I really don't see any actual encouragement in there... To me it seemed like Shinji made the choice to return to the pilot's seat on his own upon seeing his friend/potential love interest getting swallowed by Zeruel.
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Old 2011-11-02, 11:52   Link #2691
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Hah, I knew you'd bring that up.
Wow, you're, like PSYCHIC or something then, right...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yes, I'm aware she does those things. But if you seriously believe that adds any substance to the story (aka "contribute"), especially the laughable speech to Shinji part (wait, random inspiration by some random stranger when nobody else would work, and was just lifted from Kaiji?), then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Though while she does technically exist in the movie and there are technically points that involve her, and she might even count as some kind of entity that appears in the movie, she hardly makes any difference to me outside of a prop.

It is not enough to exist and do something, otherwise every extra and bystander would be considered a character. Mari is more than this, so... a glorified extra she is.
First...his name's "Kaji," not "Kaiji."

Second...YOU defined what a "character" was, and Mari fits those attributes. As I said, she may not be a character you LIKE, but to say she's not a character, by your own definition, is false.

Third...what are they planning for her in the next movie? If you can tell me honestly that she'll do nothing, then you're right. She's useless.
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Old 2011-11-02, 12:34   Link #2692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Wow, you're, like PSYCHIC or something then, right...?
Yes, I am.

Quote:
First...his name's "Kaji," not "Kaiji."
Oops, damn typos and Romanization!

Quote:
Second...YOU defined what a "character" was, and Mari fits those attributes. As I said, she may not be a character you LIKE, but to say she's not a character, by your own definition, is false.
No, there are certain minimum requirements. She does not meet them. I already said "contribute" and I don't consider that a contribution of substance. It would be like saying I want someone to draw a character suited for this movie and they gave me a stick figure. They technically did draw, but how would this get a passing grade?

And yes, that's an extreme example. Though in terms of characater, she might qualify according to that analogy. Who knows? And no, it has nothing to do with me liking the character or not. I don't have enough emotion in me to feel anything towards her beyond the most basic of things. I think that's even worse than liking or hating, no?

You can argue definitions all you like. It doesn't change the fact that removing her would have absolutely no effect on my view of the story. But trying to objectify something that is a subjective viewpoint is a waste of time. I'm not gonna dispute the fact that you could in fact, view Mari as an entity that contributes to the story. But said foundation doesn't qualify my expectations of recognizing Mari as such.

Besides, why not just link to Wikipedia, the official website, or IMDB and claim objectivity there, anyways? Would have been much easier and would have not changed anything. Anyhow, by now, you might have caught up to the fact that my original statement was hyperbole. Congratulations!

Quote:
Third...what are they planning for her in the next movie? If you can tell me honestly that she'll do nothing, then you're right. She's useless.
Sorry, I'm not that psychic. I only go by what I've seen in 2.0. I never said I wouldn't change my mind if things change.
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Old 2011-11-02, 12:47   Link #2693
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yes, I am.
Suuuure...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Oops, damn typos and Romanization!
I know, right?

Of course, there's only one way to romanize 加持, really. So you can't blame that...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
No, there are certain minimum requirements. She does not meet them. I already said "contribute" and I don't consider that a contribution of substance. It would be like saying I want someone to draw a character suited for this movie and they gave me a stick figure. They technically did draw, but how would this get a passing grade?

And yes, that's an extreme example. Though in terms of characater, she might qualify according to that analogy. Who knows? And no, it has nothing to do with me liking the character or not. I don't have enough emotion in me to feel anything towards her beyond the most basic of things. I think that's even worse than liking or hating, no?

You can argue definitions all you like. It doesn't change the fact that removing her would have absolutely no effect on my view of the story. But trying to objectify something that is a subjective viewpoint is a waste of time. I'm not gonna dispute the fact that you could in fact, view Mari as an entity that contributes to the story. But said foundation doesn't qualify my expectations of recognizing Mari as such.

Besides, why not just link to Wikipedia, the official website, or IMDB and claim objectivity there, anyways? Would have been much easier and would have not changed anything. Anyhow, by now, you might have caught up to the fact that my original statement was hyperbole. Congratulations!
Well, gosh...if you had "minimum requirements," why didn't you state that earlier, BEFORE I posted how Mari meets your requirements...

Guess you're not THAT psychic, huh?


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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Sorry, I'm not that psychic. I only go by what I've seen in 2.0. I never said I wouldn't change my mind if things change.
Glad you've got an open mind, at least.
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Old 2011-11-02, 12:53   Link #2694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Suuuure...
Does your name begin with an A?
B?
C?
D?
E?
F?
G?
H?
I?
J?

No? No? I can still get it.


Quote:
I know, right?
I hate the English language sometimes. And my ability to type
.
Quote:
Well, gosh...if you had "minimum requirements," why didn't you state that earlier, BEFORE I posted how Mari meets your requirements...
It's pretty much implied in a definition. It'll be like tossing a rock and claiming to have moved their earth. Besides it wouldn't nearly be anywhere near as funny as me saying "Mari does not conform to my established specifications"

Quote:
Guess you're not THAT psychic, huh?
Oh crap.

Quote:
Glad you've got an open mind, at least.
I never go into anything saying it'll suck. If I gave stuff like Dog Days and Hiden no Aria a chance, there's no way I'm not giving Rebuild a chance. If anything, my expectations are that 3.0 will be better than 2.0
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Old 2011-11-02, 13:01   Link #2695
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Does your name begin with an A?
B?
C?
D?
E?
F?
G?
H?
I?
J?

No? No? I can still get it.
You're getting closer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
It's pretty much implied in a definition. It'll be like tossing a rock and claiming to have moved their earth. Besides it wouldn't nearly be anywhere near as funny as me saying "Mari does not conform to my established specifications"
No...but you would've been better off coming up with a definition of "character" that could NEVER be applied to Mari. I.E. "If they can't squirt ketchup out of their navel, they're not a character."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I never go into anything saying it'll suck. If I gave stuff like Dog Days and Hiden no Aria a chance, there's no way I'm not giving Rebuild a chance. If anything, my expectations are that 3.0 will be better than 2.0
I hope it'll be EXTREMELY awesome, of course. And I actually LIKED Eva 2.0.
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Old 2011-11-02, 13:06   Link #2696
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
You're getting closer...
Curses.

Quote:
No...but you would've been better off coming up with a definition of "character" that could NEVER be applied to Mari. I.E. "If they can't squirt ketchup out of their navel, they're not a character."
I could. But then that would just be plain dishonest to play definitions to suit my needs and I'd never do anything like that.
Quote:
I hope it'll be EXTREMELY awesome, of course. And I actually LIKED Eva 2.0.
I liked 2.0 to some degree too, but I had many issues. 3.0 should be good no matter how much I disapprove of Captain "one-eyed" Shikinami.
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Old 2011-11-05, 09:07   Link #2697
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Well both Mari and Shikinami are rather shallow characters in the series. They do not seem like well persons but rather like moving, talking ploy devices.

You may say that it is usual and it actually is, but in original evengelion most of the character were actually pretty deep and unique, now Mari and the Shikinami just lack that depth inn general. Maybe because original Asuka's personality was sort of split between the two, or maybe because the screen time was split but whatever is the case neither of those characters look deep personality wise.

I mean this Asuka's main defining features are that she is a typical tsundere redhead that you see in 10000 animes nowdays, has one-eye (well will have) and is a captain. That looks a totally skin deep when you compare to how she originally was.

Mari is even worse in that regard...
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Old 2011-11-05, 13:22   Link #2698
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Well both Mari and Shikinami are rather shallow characters in the series. They do not seem like well persons but rather like moving, talking ploy devices.

You may say that it is usual and it actually is, but in original evengelion most of the character were actually pretty deep and unique, now Mari and the Shikinami just lack that depth inn general. Maybe because original Asuka's personality was sort of split between the two, or maybe because the screen time was split but whatever is the case neither of those characters look deep personality wise.

I mean this Asuka's main defining features are that she is a typical tsundere redhead that you see in 10000 animes nowdays, has one-eye (well will have) and is a captain. That looks a totally skin deep when you compare to how she originally was.

Mari is even worse in that regard...
But you're comparing 13 hours or so of Eva TV to fewer than four hours of Eva New Movies...

OF COURSE the TV versions will get more development. They have way more hours in which to do so.
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Old 2011-11-05, 14:58   Link #2699
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But you're comparing 13 hours or so of Eva TV to fewer than four hours of Eva New Movies...

OF COURSE the TV versions will get more development. They have way more hours in which to do so.
Yes, and one of the main complaints is that 2.0 is an incredibly rushed film. Coincidence? Perhaps they should've split it into two different films (Also please just throw out that piece of trash Mari).
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Old 2011-11-05, 15:02   Link #2700
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But you're comparing 13 hours or so of Eva TV to fewer than four hours of Eva New Movies...

OF COURSE the TV versions will get more development. They have way more hours in which to do so.
Well Asuka did not have all that much of time in the series actually. It wouldnt be too hard to bring the depth of her charcater in the series despite the time limit.

The first movie was actually well done. It was the second one that went into the shallow character territory hard.

I believe that even with the time limit of the movie you can bring the depth of Asuka's character in.

You would need to get rid of megane mascot mari though, but as her character deosnt seem to have much of purpose anyway but being a new figurine cash cow I don't think that not having her around would be a loss at all.
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