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Old 2011-11-03, 20:59   Link #281
Kismet-chan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
and lastly, i wonder if it meant kazamori will join force with the duo.
Well, we can now see that Kazamori is the long dark-haired girl with the striped shirt on in the OP and ED, so it's nice that... he...? err, she? ...it? will be making continuous appearances from now on at least.

And the episode was really good. There were interesting spins on things that I both did and didn't expect, and everything wrapped up nicely.
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Old 2011-11-04, 02:40   Link #282
poisui
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Just watched episode 4.

Spoiler for Episode 4:
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Old 2011-11-04, 10:33   Link #283
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This anime just keeps getting better. The setting remains highly interesting, and the case was solid this time. I have a feeling this two-parter is very important to the bigger picture, although I can't tell exactly how everything will be connected yet. The scene where Kazumori tried to pleasure Shinjurou was both amusing and disturbing. There's no doubt in my mind that the Professor who taught him/her all that, that creep.

So, Shinjurou got a new assistant. First, a shota able to turn into a big-breasted lady gaga, and now a sexbot. That guy's living the dream.
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Old 2011-11-04, 10:36   Link #284
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Great episode, and yeah I do hope that funky robot becomes part of the team. That pleasure scene was indeed very disturbing though so hopefully no more of that. Also I'm rather surprised that Inga displayed some signs of empathy this episode.
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Old 2011-11-04, 10:36   Link #285
Forsaken_Infinity
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Maybe the RIA program doesn't really exist: From the very start it was only ever him posing as if he were a computer AI to fool the Turing Test (or like, networked to low paid sweatshop workers that acted as their voices)

Instead of having this exposed and his business ruined he got the government to help "ban the technology" and fakes his own death.
That would have been so much more interesting than what they went with but oh well.

Kind of saw it coming. But the focus isn't at all on the mysteries as is apparent by now.

And the subtle way they handled Kazamori is worth all possible praise. That was very nicely done.
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Old 2011-11-04, 11:05   Link #286
Kagura89
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
So, Shinjurou got a new assistant. First, a shota able to turn into a big-breasted lady gaga, and now a sexbot. That guy's living the dream.
You forgot that ojou Rie.

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Who was the seiyuu voicing kazamori?
Marika Matsumoto.
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Old 2011-11-04, 12:47   Link #287
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Nice episode
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Old 2011-11-04, 13:39   Link #288
felix
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Why does that doll have a tongue? More importantly how come he could move when later on it's shown he's just a plushy?
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Old 2011-11-04, 17:09   Link #289
Kunagisa
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Why does that doll have a tongue? More importantly how come he could move when later on it's shown he's just a plushy?
Tongue is essential for survival no matter what you are!!

I did so many double takes throughout the episode. To quote a stream comment, this is an elitist show. Pretty highly praised by watchers with refined taste, but also highly unappealing to the mass .
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Old 2011-11-04, 22:00   Link #290
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
That would have been so much more interesting than what they went with but oh well.

Kind of saw it coming. But the focus isn't at all on the mysteries as is apparent by now.

And the subtle way they handled Kazamori is worth all possible praise. That was very nicely done.
Well-phrased. Un-Go clearly isn't a "mystery" show at all, but more like a "detective" or "crime" show. It has noir elements (the dystopian setting, the emphasis on exposing the raw, selfish emotions of humanity, the way in which idealism is not a force that produces happy endings for those who pursue it), largely filtered through the modern cyberpunk-type ethos (the focus on information control as the way the dystopian elements of society are expressed). It's about the characters, their emotions, what they say about us as humanity. Whether it succeeds or fails at that, well, that's another question. It feels like a show that wants to say profound things, but whether it actually will say them, or if it manages to do so, says them convincingly, remains to be seen.

(Spending a two-parter early on introducing an AI character, with heavy emphasis on the role of artificial persons in society, from at least three perspective, just emphasizes the point.)

But as for mystery, well, that seems to be just because mystery and crime are good vehicles for exploring tension, motive, violence, truth, and lies. Inga as the "outsider" basically is having all this explained (and, ahem, fed) to him/her, just as is Rie, the cushy pampered ojou whose life was apparently surrounded by illusions. (Rie's the closest thing to an audience surrogate in the show, I think.)

Shinjurou interests me immensely, I think, because he shows hints of being much more broken inside than the average Philip Marlowe/Sam Spade hardboiled detective protagonist. Or maybe I only think that 'cause he has a soul-sucking androgynous sparkly-butterfly thing running around in his wake.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Why does that doll have a tongue? More importantly how come he could move when later on it's shown he's just a plushy?
I figure it's got an articulated "skeleton" inside, which is cushioned by plush, rather than being a full plushy. Obviously not very strong, given how the head was ripped off, but then again, it never performs any weird feats of strength, just moved around.

I have no idea why it would be built with a tongue, though.
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Old 2011-11-04, 22:09   Link #291
Kaoru Chujo
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This appears to be a show that starts in an unassuming way and gradually grows, and grows on the audience. It's growing on me, anyway. Nice tone, good characters, interesting situations.
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Old 2011-11-04, 22:44   Link #292
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I think the opening is trying to tell us something about Inga.

At the end of the OP, there were two large statues.

One appear to be a short male wearing animal skin on his head.

And one appear to be a woman with classic ribbons associated with mythical beings.


Further, the woman statue was actually shown earlier, in a shrine.


I think it is pretty clear that Inga is a forgotten deity. Someone who was once worshipped, but she out-lived all her followers. Or at least, she is the Earthly avatar of the Goddess, perhaps using the corpse of a long dead woman as her vessel.

What is freaky about her shrine, is the little figurines around her; if you look closely you might see that they contain a variety of designs that appear to be from many religions around the globe. That's going to raise questions on exactly what kind of Goddess she is suppose to be...
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Old 2011-11-05, 06:54   Link #293
kuromitsu
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I enjoyed episode 4 a lot. The show is going to very interesting places, and it's clear they've no intention to follow the usual anime storytelling routines (which is the reason, I guess, why many people are frustrated with it - the show doesn't do what they expect it to do).

I quite liked the conflicting viewpoints regarding AI and robots and humans - sure, it's nothing new and in anime GITS:SAC has already discussed all these issues in-depth. But still, it's an interesting situation: on one hand we've got the usual situation with the Evil Military trying to exploit AIs for their own evil purposes, but on the other hand there's their own creator who thinks it's OK if people use androids to satisfy their desires, no matter how inhumane they are, because hey, they're robots. As funny as it first seemed when Kazamori tried to "repay" Shinjuurou for his help, it turns disturbing pretty fast when one stops to think about Kazamori analyzing Shinjuurou's moves and acting in accordance, to satisfy him... and the fact that Komamori made Kazamori this way. Ugh.

Also, kudos to Shinjuurou's voice actor, he's been doing a pretty good job so far. It's not an easy role, and I think Bones took a big risk with giving it to someone who is not a pro seiyuu. (Then again, they took the same risk with Oguri Shun and Doumoto Kouichi in Juuousei, and it worked out fine...)
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Old 2011-11-05, 06:59   Link #294
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I enjoyed episode 4 a lot. The show is going to very interesting places, and it's clear they've no intention to follow the usual anime storytelling routines (which is the reason, I guess, why many people are frustrated by it - the show doesn't do what they expect it to do).

I quite liked the conflicting viewpoints regarding AI and robots and humans - sure, it's nothing new and in anime GITS:SAC has already discussed all these issues in-depth. But still, it's an interesting situation: on one hand we've got the usual situation with the Evil Military trying to exploit AIs for their own evil purposes, but on the other hand there's their own creator who thinks it's OK if people use androids to satisfy their desires, no matter how inhumane they are, because hey, they're robots. As funny as it first seemed when Kazamori tried to "repay" Shinjuurou for his help, it turns disturbing pretty fast when one stops to think about Kazamori analyzing Shinjuurou's moves and acting in accordance, to satisfy him... and the fact that Komamori made Kazamori this way. Ugh.

Also, kudos to Shinjuurou's voice actor, he's doing a pretty good job. It's not an easy role, and I think Bones took a big risk with giving it to someone who is not a pro seiyuu. (Then again, they took the same risk with Oguri Shun and Doumoto Kouichi in Juuousei, and it worked out fine...)
Still, I don't see the issue with using robots to do whatever as long as they went along with it. Fighting robots? They can't die or feel pain. Sex robots? No more humiliating than being a trash compactor. It's a job and someone had to do it.

With Kazamori. she (I will call her a she from now on) never actually hated the creator for the sex. It's just her job she learned to do really well. The only things she objected to is hurting humans and lying.

There was nothing broken about her being a sex toy. No more than an AI spending its existence as a fridge. All the immorality issues brought up were all lies; the creator has a rather strong sense of morals, with his only genuine crime being killing someone to fake his own death.

The AI just doesn't act like a victim, because she wasn't a victim. She was a tool. That was why at the end, she asked what the MC will do with her, what orders will he give. She is in the end, created to serve.

Also, don't forget that she actually refused to snitch. It was within her power to give evidence that implicate her creator directly, but she refused. She only got him implicated indirectly by letting it be known that she isn't capable of murder. There was no hatred about any "rape". What little negative feelings are associated with the murder, and the framing of two innocent people.


I guess my point is that we shouldn't treat robots like humans; we should treat robots the way they want to be treated. Forcing human values on a machine is not kindness.
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Old 2011-11-05, 07:27   Link #295
kuromitsu
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For me, it's about the context. Creating androids who look and act exactly like human beings (well, the acting part is just a software, but anyway) and making them do whatever you want, including brutal violence and sex, and all the deranged things that the human mind is capable of thinking up - this is firmly in the "Uncanny Valley" and "Repulsive" category for me. Not necessarily because of the androids' plight - I mean, they are robots, although the situation becomes complicated when the AI develops a sort of consciousness as Kazamori did. But for me it's mainly the human context.

Also - robots being robots, they can't help but to go along with whatever their programming says, and not being sentient they can't exactly have an opinion on it. But the complication arises from the fact that Kazamori has a consciousness. Sure, it's a very basic consciousness that still follows her programming, but it's there, and the entire point of Shinjuurou's rant about humans and the sense of justice was that Kazamori is, for all intents and purposes, a sentient being, not just the impersonal software that her creator thinks she is, and it's not right to treat her the way Komamori did. (Btw, this raises the question: if Kazamori was capable of developing a consciousness, were the other RAIs capable of being sentient as well? Were they sentient on some level?)
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Old 2011-11-05, 07:32   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There was nothing broken about her being a sex toy. No more than an AI spending its existence as a fridge. All the immorality issues brought up were all lies; the creator has a rather strong sense of morals, with his only genuine crime being killing someone to fake his own death.

The AI just doesn't act like a victim, because she wasn't a victim. She was a tool. That was why at the end, she asked what the MC will do with her, what orders will he give. She is in the end, created to serve.

Also, don't forget that she actually refused to snitch. It was within her power to give evidence that implicate her creator directly, but she refused. She only got him implicated indirectly by letting it be known that she isn't capable of murder. There was no hatred about any "rape". What little negative feelings are associated with the murder, and the framing of two innocent people.


I guess my point is that we shouldn't treat robots like humans; we should treat robots the way they want to be treated. Forcing human values on a machine is not kindness.
You are making the philosophical assumption that an AI that can act sufficiently human to pass the Turing test still does not have a soul.

The human brain can be trained to desire being used, to take pleasure from being beaten. Does that make it right to do those acts?

Of course within the show they already demonstrated that Kazamori didn't have a soul (at least a normal one), because Inga wasn't able to ask her question of him/her.
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Old 2011-11-05, 07:46   Link #297
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
You are making the philosophical assumption that an AI that can act sufficiently human to pass the Turing test still does not have a soul.

The human brain can be trained to desire being used, to take pleasure from being beaten. Does that make it right to do those acts?

Of course within the show they already demonstrated that Kazamori didn't have a soul (at least a normal one), because Inga wasn't able to ask her question of him/her.
I didn't say she didn't have a soul. I say she didn't get harmed by her treatment in any way because as far as she was concerned, having sex was just duty.

As for beating her, she doesn't care. Worst thing that happens is that she needs to swap to a new body. You are assuming physical harm even MATTERS to her.
The only reason it is wrong to train a human to enjoy pain, is that the human automatically objects to it due to instinct. AI have no pre-loaded instincts, they don't have any preset values you need to brainwash. It does not apply.

Turing tests are not relevant here either. She actually will fail a turing test despite being a true AI, because her personal values and though processes are alien to most humans. Kazamori isn't trying to pretend to be human, she is just being a sentient AI who thinks like a sentient AI. And one element about her being who she is, is that she doesn't care about physical abuse. She has different priorities to humans.

For example, I am sure she considers human capacity to deceive, immoral and disgusting.
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Old 2011-11-05, 08:15   Link #298
felix
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It's easier to answer why the universe exists then to try and answer this to be honest. Obviously there is a line you draw somewhere since otherwise what's to say something like a perfect clone is to not suffer just the same. And obviously this "it's okey since..." it where all the racist problems of the world stem from: it's okey they're slaves, it's okey they're terrorists, it's okey they're not civilized people, it's okey they're <insert race>, it's okey they're <insert generalization>, etc.

My own guess, I'd say respect another sentient being as you respect yourself. So regarding the refrigerator argument, it's wrong that you've trapped intelligence into a immutable box. As for the sex toy one... well do you think raising kittens only to hear them scream as you bleed them to death later is ok? Do you think the "they don't understand" and "that's their purpose" argument holds there.
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Old 2011-11-05, 08:26   Link #299
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
It's easier to answer why the universe exists then to try and answer this to be honest. Obviously there is a line you draw somewhere since otherwise what's to say something like a perfect clone is to not suffer just the same. And obviously this "it's okey since..." it where all the racist problems of the world stem from: it's okey they're slaves, it's okey they're terrorists, it's okey they're not civilized people, it's okey they're <insert race>, it's okey they're <insert generalization>, etc.

My own guess, I'd say respect another sentient being as you respect yourself. So regarding the refrigerator argument, it's wrong that you've trapped intelligence into a immutable box. As for the sex toy one... well do you think raising kittens only to hear them scream as you bleed them to death later is ok? Do you think the "they don't understand" and "that's their purpose" argument holds there.
Ah, but we are not talking about kittens are we? We are talking about a sentient AI who has her own opinion. So why not ask her what she feel about it?

She understands perfectly what her purpose is, and at any stage she could do something about it. My issue is that you are completely disregarding her very mature opinions.

After all, are you really supporting AI rights, if you don't give AIs a say in how they want to be treated? Or are you going to force orders upon them just like their previous masters?

She is not a cat, or a child. She is an intelligent AI who understands you, and can tell you what she wants as long as you bothered to ask. But only if you ask her.
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Old 2011-11-05, 08:50   Link #300
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Ah, but we are not talking about kittens are we? We are talking about a sentient AI who has her own opinion. So why not ask her what she feel about it?
Because she cannot answer in any other way than she was programmed to. Kazamori is a software created to do whatever you want her to. She might have gained consciousness but that doesn't mean she can disregard her programming, the very basis of her consciousness, just like that. Raise a child so she believes that being abused is natural and there's nothing wrong with it, and she will willingly let herself be abused and will think it's natural and there's nothing wrong with it, regardless of instincts. But can you trust her opinion, knowing her background? And sure, AIs don't need to be brainwashed like that - because they come with a programming to start with. A programming created by humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
My issue is that you are completely disregarding her very mature opinions.
Er... mature? How could she be mature? Her consciousness is obviously new enough that Komamori didn't even know it existed. I don't understand what makes you think she's "mature." No, she's not a cat, nor a child. She's an AI with a bit of consciousness. That's about as far from "mature" as you can get. (In a way it makes her more innocent and "pure" than any of the characters.)

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2011-11-05 at 09:01.
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