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Old 2011-11-07, 18:28   Link #101
ChronoReverse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikachuwei View Post
and iirc didnt Archer state even with UBW he is no match for the other Servants because he is not a master of the weapons, so against one who specialized in combat with one weapon UBW is not as effective
No. Shirou said that, not Archer. Shirou, even inside UBW, is not a match for servants.


Archer, however, is clearly able to engage against servants and sometimes even win. He's just not the Ultimate Warrior.
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Old 2011-11-07, 20:54   Link #102
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Think Rock-Paper-Scissor
I get what you mean, but is that really the dynamic? Seems to me UBW is just a bigger rock than GoB. Should be weak to the same opponents and strong against the same opponents.
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Old 2011-11-07, 20:56   Link #103
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It's a different kind of rock, really. The weapons are weaker, but the wielder is stronger and more skilled. Otherwise they can function the same.
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Old 2011-11-07, 21:14   Link #104
Kokukirin
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Gilgamesh easily killed FSN Berserker with GoB.

Archer died to FSN Berserker in Fate route.
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Old 2011-11-07, 21:17   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Gilgamesh easily killed FSN Berserker with GoB.

Archer died to FSN Berserker in Fate route.
There's nothing that says whether or not Archer used UBW against Berserker. The anime does not count. Further, Archer would never intentionally target Ilya to defeat Berserker. Gilgamesh did. Berserker was on the defensive, with very little in the way of actual defense. It's obvious why he was overwhelmed.
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Old 2011-11-07, 21:22   Link #106
mAc Chaos
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Berserker wasn't fighting Gilgamesh so much as shielding Ilya from Gate of Babylon. He had to take the full force of the attacks to protect her. Otherwise he would've been able to move around a lot more.

Gilgamesh would still win though probably.

Also I'm pretty sure UBW *can* own most Servants, but unlike Gilgamesh Archer can't just use it forever effortlessly and it takes up all of his power probably.
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Old 2011-11-07, 21:37   Link #107
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The thing I find amusing is that Shirou beat Berserker and Saber in HF (though a bad end on Saber). So shouldn't Archer be able to beat them?

When it comes to raw power of course, Archer's stats aren't that impressive. But his adaptability allows him to surpass most servants. And of course Shirou beat Gil in UBW (Archer assisted with rho ahius but this kind of implies Archer is able to beat gil).

Shouldn't Archer be top tier?

Another amusing thing to ponder is how it's noted in UBW that assassin fended off lancer and berserker, and the only reason saber lived was because he rushed the fight and got his sword bent. Is assassin actually better in melee combat than all of them?

This is why I find power scales silly. It all depends on circumstances. It seems most heroic spirits can defeat each other if things line up for them the way they want.
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Old 2011-11-07, 21:41   Link #108
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
It's a different kind of rock, really. The weapons are weaker, but the wielder is stronger and more skilled. Otherwise they can function the same.
Um, I'll give you more skilled, but what's the basis for considering Archer stronger than Gilgamesh? The former's Strength is a D and the latter's a B. All of Gil's other parameters are equal or superior as well, plus he's clearly got more mana capacity than Archer, since he can effortlessly keep on spamming GoB while UBW seems to be quite a toll on Archer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
The thing I find amusing is that Shirou beat Berserker and Saber in HF (though a bad end on Saber). So shouldn't Archer be able to beat them?

When it comes to raw power of course, Archer's stats aren't that impressive. But his adaptability allows him to surpass most servants. And of course Shirou beat Gil in UBW (Archer assisted with rho ahius but this kind of implies Archer is able to beat gil).

Shouldn't Archer be top tier?
Yeah, I think Archer's pretty underrated when it comes to these power level debates (which I tend not to concern myself with usually). He didn't really care for winning war in F/SN, so he probably wasn't even all that serious most of the time. I believe that if he had been truly determined to win and had had a more cut-throat Master he'd have been a serious contender.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Another amusing thing to ponder is how it's noted in UBW that assassin fended off lancer and berserker, and the only reason saber lived was because he rushed the fight and got his sword bent. Is assassin actually better in melee combat than all of them?
Well, in Assassin's case it was indeed greatly about the circumstances, since he, quite literally, had the high ground, which IIRC was vital to his technique in general.
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Old 2011-11-07, 21:53   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Um, I'll give you more skilled, but what's the basis for considering Archer stronger than Gilgamesh? The former's Strength is a D and the latter's a B. All of Gil's other parameters are equal or superior as well, plus he's clearly got more mana capacity than Archer, since he can effortlessly keep on spamming GoB while UBW seems to be quite a toll on Archer.
Archer's base strength is low, but he uses reinforcement magic on himself which would likely increase his strength quite a bit. And we never really see Archer use UBW while he has a Master, so we don't really know if he'd be able to keep it up with ease given Rin's magic supply. Odds are he could, since Shirou could and he's a noob.
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Old 2011-11-08, 00:58   Link #110
Nightengale
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Every Servant, at his element, has a chance of defeating another. Furthermore, stats are only circumstantial to their base physical strengths, significantly discounting things like aptitude and mentality.

I mean, Archer has crappy stats, but as someone capable of materialising Noble Phantasms, using them to a degree of expertise, and lastly, capable of turning them into extremely potent bombs, the virtue of that instantly already puts him up there as one of the Servants who can actually chip off lives from Heracles.

I mean, let's assume Gilgamesh has a D in every single stats of his. He would still wreck every other Servant because his stats has literally almost no relevance to the way he likes to fight, and that because his Noble Phantasm is the key maker for his strength. Archer is the same way, but to a lesser extent.

This is where they are different from Servants like Heracles, Saber or Zero/Berserker... where their stats are clearly extremely essential to the way they fight, because their NPs are just an extension to their forte as an all-rounder combatant.
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Old 2011-11-08, 01:56   Link #111
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Gilgamesh's B-rank strength seems a little dubious to me. I don't doubt for a second that in a one-on-one sword fight between Gil and EMIYA, the latter would win. Though, one could argue that strength isn't really related to skill with a sword, I suppose.

Heck, even Shirou managed to win against Gil... and I HIGHLY doubt Shirou has anywhere near B-rank strength. Even if I entertain the argument that Shirou simply summoned his swords too fast while in UBW, I don't see how he possesses the skills/strength to be able to outfight a servant in combat (even against the weakest servants like Assassin).

However, IIRC, there was one part in the Fate route where Saber comments that Gil actually had decent skills as a swordsman. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 2011-11-08, 07:35   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Yuutsu View Post
Gilgamesh's B-rank strength seems a little dubious to me. I don't doubt for a second that in a one-on-one sword fight between Gil and EMIYA, the latter would win. Though, one could argue that strength isn't really related to skill with a sword, I suppose.

Heck, even Shirou managed to win against Gil... and I HIGHLY doubt Shirou has anywhere near B-rank strength. Even if I entertain the argument that Shirou simply summoned his swords too fast while in UBW, I don't see how he possesses the skills/strength to be able to outfight a servant in combat (even against the weakest servants like Assassin).

However, IIRC, there was one part in the Fate route where Saber comments that Gil actually had decent skills as a swordsman. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't see how Gilgamesh's strength is dubious, wasn't he able to easily trade blows with Saber? And like you said, putting strength behind one's sword blows is a different thing from being skilled handling it. And yeah I believe there was some manner of comment about his skills as a swordsman like that, which is part of why I think people underrate him a fair bit most of the time when it comes to actually fighting with a weapon in hand. A lot of people seem to assume that, since he just carelessly tosses his weapons around 99% of the time, his actual skill in swordsmanship is non-existent, which I doubt is the case. He just hasn't mastered the use of any particular weapon besides Ea, since he's an owner before a wielder.

Shirou/Archer take on the mastery of any blade they project, so they've got an advantage in that department, which might partially explain why Shirou was able to defeat Gil. Though obviously the main reason would be that Gil was an overconfident bastard as usual and Shirou was smart enough to cut off his arm before he could summon and grasp Ea. Which he has mastered, so I doubt Archer would be able to beat him with it in a one-on-one sword fight. But of course Gil could never bring himself to go all out from the start like that against a 'faker', so such a fight could never take place.
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Old 2011-11-08, 11:07   Link #113
Tailong
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Emiya Archer is the inspiration behind "GAR" so he wins any arguments!!! lol

And I don't think Archer has ever showed his true strength, in the fate route he takes 6 lives out Berserker without any indication that he used UBW, in UBW route he trolls everyone and saves the day, and in HF his arm is what beats pretty much everyone..., what I think is that his only real purpose is to kill Shirou once that is out of the window the holy grail battles don't really interest him at all, so he doesn't even try. I would easily fit him in like the top 3 servants
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Old 2011-11-08, 11:23   Link #114
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Gil VS Shirou in UBW is laughable at best: as explained by Endless Twilight, Gilgamesh is way too confident and ended up being beaten by his own game, despite he could kill Shirou any time he wanted. The problem is how Nasu has the huge tendency to put incredibly "overwhelming" fighters, but crippled them with situation or health status to make things "fair" while they aren't (many Tsukihime and FSN situations define the very issue of not having a proper power level chart, since power doesn't mean much with Nasu).

Archer is meanwhile a though cookie to gauge, because his utmost advantage is how versatile he can be due to his arsenal being as various as Gil's GoB, while stats are average at best.
This is the very reason why he can beat Berserker (since only Servants with several A Rank NP can defeat him at full health). Although DEEN may have suited the story to their own, it is very likely Archer had to use UBW, considering how overwhelming Berserker can be in term of speed and strength. Surely, he can use Broken Phantasm and all, but it is doubtful he can keep Berserker at bay without showering him with multiple NP/BP.
If we assume that Gil takes Archer a "little seriously", Gil would own him in term of weapons rain, because:
1) Gil probably has weapons Archer didn't cast his eyes on, due to the obvious difference in term of time axis
2) Gil has proper originals, while Archer has only replica (and counting BP isn't a good idea since prana consumption has to be factored if BP are used)
3) Gil has more than just Swords: he has a silly amount of weapons AND shields alike, while Archer can only trace Swords and Rho Aias, the latter being much more prana expensive.
If you add Ea in the pack, the whole problem is "solved".

Shirou's fights in HF are basically way too situational, since he hardly face them one-on-one, save Dark Berserker, which is pretty much the same situation as Archer VS Berserker.
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Old 2011-11-08, 16:50   Link #115
GDB
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
1) Gil probably has weapons Archer didn't cast his eyes on, due to the obvious difference in term of time axis
Doubtful. Archer very likely laid eyes on everything Gilgamesh had during the Grail War as Shirou. In fact, that's likely where a lot of the weapons originated from.
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Old 2011-11-08, 17:27   Link #116
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Plus, can't Archer go to any point in time (where there's conflict) due to his role as a Counter Guardian? If so, for all we know, he might have been to ancient Mesopotamia.
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Old 2011-11-08, 17:42   Link #117
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The thing is that Gil had hardly even unleashed enough weapons from GoB, considering how "limitless" it was described. Heck, in the 5th war, Gil doesn't really abuse GoB, so it is doubtful Shirou could witness "most" of Gil's weapons, especially Gil doesn't seem to have a pattern and just fire weapons without caring what they are, except few exceptions such like Durendal, IIRC (and obviously Ea).

As for the latter point, it would mean that Emiya conveniently showed up during a crisis where all treasure collected by Gil can be witnessed, which is beyond convenient if you ask me.
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Old 2011-11-08, 19:58   Link #118
Nightengale
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To be fair, it is somewhat possible ( but highly unlikely ) that Archer has more bladed weapons in memory stock than Gilgamesh because unlike Gilgamesh who has the originals of most Noble Phantasms in existence, Archer's UBW can have both the traced originals as well as the off-shoots of the original. ( eg. Caliburn )

As well as probably tons of crappy swords as well. ( that Gilgamesh would grovel before even allowing them anywhere in his Vault. )

Still, Archer would never be able to beat Gilgamesh in an even fight. Not only is Gate of Babylon more cost-efficient and faster ( unless Gilgamesh tried to you know... turn it into a weapon duel ), it beats whatever Archer has in quality. And very very likely quantity as well.

And then there's the fact that Gilgamesh has more than just weapons in it, but that's his arrogance talking already, because someone like Gilgamesh would probably feel extremely extremely extremely insulted beyond mongrel's imagination if he was forced to actually pull out a defensive Noble Phantasm.
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Old 2011-11-08, 22:40   Link #119
Yuutsu
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
3) Gil has more than just Swords: he has a silly amount of weapons AND shields alike, while Archer can only trace Swords and Rho Aias, the latter being much more prana expensive.
Actually, EMIYA (and therefore by extension, Shirou) can summon a variety of armaments. During his fight with Gilgamesh in the UBW storyline (near the end of the arc), there was an instance where he (Shirou) traced all the weapons he saw Gilgamesh draw from GoB. I believe this event was reflected in the movie, too.

Moreover, Shirou can definitely trace defensive gear beyond Rho Aias; however, it is at the cost of taking thrice the mana (prana?) that it would normally take for him to summon if it were a sword. This I can testify as I have gone through all 3 arcs of the visual novel.

I also quickly browsed the wiki and saw these two interesting quotes:

"It contains all of the raw materials and sorcery needed for the formation of the weapons, and it records and analyzes all weapons and defensive armaments encountered. The number of unique weapons encountered and recorded by Emiya exceeds numerous thousands, most of which are Noble Phantasms,"

"Close combat weapons such as swords, spears, and halberds are the main focus of the Reality Marble in accordance with Shirou's Origin of "Sword", which also makes it impossible to record or reproduce modern weaponry like guns and other mobile weapons. Shields and defensive armaments can be reproduced with a much greater struggle, as the cost in prana is high, two or three times greater than a sword, and the effects are merely transient compared to the originals".

Obvious any wiki should be taken with a grain of salt, but I've found the Type-Moon wikia to be not so bad in its accuracy.
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Old 2011-11-13, 01:02   Link #120
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
To be fair, it is somewhat possible ( but highly unlikely ) that Archer has more bladed weapons in memory stock than Gilgamesh because unlike Gilgamesh who has the originals of most Noble Phantasms in existence, Archer's UBW can have both the traced originals as well as the off-shoots of the original. ( eg. Caliburn )

As well as probably tons of crappy swords as well. ( that Gilgamesh would grovel before even allowing them anywhere in his Vault. )

Still, Archer would never be able to beat Gilgamesh in an even fight. Not only is Gate of Babylon more cost-efficient and faster ( unless Gilgamesh tried to you know... turn it into a weapon duel ), it beats whatever Archer has in quality. And very very likely quantity as well.

And then there's the fact that Gilgamesh has more than just weapons in it, but that's his arrogance talking already, because someone like Gilgamesh would probably feel extremely extremely extremely insulted beyond mongrel's imagination if he was forced to actually pull out a defensive Noble Phantasm.
Actually, no.. the game clearly states that UBW is faster than GOB

maybe it's studio Deen's fault for not animating this correctly, but in Fate Zero you can see how it works

Gilgamesh fires his swords in volleys, which must be prepared first. When you see the edge of the sword seemingly peeping out of the GOB this is actually Gilgamesh preparing his sword to be launched. After every weapon is launched he must "reload" his GOB again.

Whereas in UBW, the swords are already on the battlefield.
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