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Old 2011-11-10, 16:44   Link #1441
Keroko
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I undertand what you're trying to say but we also have important religious figures in real life and billions of people who in fact react exactly as in your last commentary, not everyone is religious and not everyone lost it's head at the suppossed "reincarnation" of a religious figure i guess most people didn't now the details of the "rebirth" of the Sankt Kaiser and have sceptical opinions about it passing it off as a publicity trick or something.
I'm sorry, but could you point me to the last time Jesus got reincarnated/cloned in the age of cell-phone cameras and internet? Because I seem to have totally missed that.

Really though, you are comparing big-shot priests to the very idol a religion worships? One whom, I might add, they can and have actually genetically proven to be said idol? That's hardly the same level.
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Old 2011-11-10, 16:48   Link #1442
Sunder the Gold
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I like to think that Erio would have been held to such a standard because of his strong magical potential.

It only makes sense to treat a young child like an adult when he has the power to kick the ass of any normal adult. But such a thing would be unnecessary for a normal child.

Of course, that was probably for things like military service during a state of war (and also doesn't mean that children were deployed on the front lines). Mid-Childa is not in a state of war, and Vivio would be expected to fulfill a civil leadership role (if anything), for which being strong at magical combat doesn't matter one whit.
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Old 2011-11-10, 17:00   Link #1443
Akiyoshi
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I'm sorry, but could you point me to the last time Jesus got reincarnated/cloned in the age of cell-phone cameras and internet? Because I seem to have totally missed that.
The real point is ...if a rebirth/cloning of Jesus were announced in public media how many people will truly believe in said information and how many will be sceptical? And they don't necessary need to be atheists, they can be dubous about a LOT of details like the source of the note, the realiability of the examns, some people can guess is planned by the Vatican so they can regain the faith of more followers, etc... There's a lot of people who wouldn't buy that Jesus is alive just because some article on the news told that to them. In fact we already had our own share of supossed Messiahs during the past two decades and most people reacted that way, some were even less enthusiastic.
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Old 2011-11-10, 17:12   Link #1444
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I think at this point the most likely explanation we'll get is that Vivio simply doesn't live in the Belkan-controlled region on Mid-Childa. For all we know, all the major Belkan religion practitioners live in that territory while the majority of people on Mid don't hold that religion and therefore don't make a big deal about Olivie's genetic legacy.
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Old 2011-11-10, 17:18   Link #1445
Keroko
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The real point is ...if a rebirth/cloning of Jesus were announced in public media how many people will truly believe in said information and how many will be sceptical?
Given the amount of people totally convinced that the world was going to end a couple 'o months back even though there was no proof whatsoever? A lot.

Again, this is not some random guy who claims to be 'a' messiah, this is a clone of the genuine deal. And this little cloned girl has an expert "genuine clone" stamp from the medical facilities and the church, both of which the above mentioned lacks.

Not to mention it's kinda hard to miss the gigantic Ancient Belkan warship that could only be used by said kaiser which was flying above Cranagan. That would sort of draw attention, wouldn't you think?
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Old 2011-11-10, 17:40   Link #1446
Akiyoshi
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Given the amount of people totally convinced that the world was going to end a couple 'o months back even though there was no proof whatsoever? A lot.

Again, this is not some random guy who claims to be 'a' messiah, this is a clone of the genuine deal. And this little cloned girl has an expert "genuine clone" stamp from the medical facilities and the church, both of which the above mentioned lacks.

Not to mention it's kinda hard to miss the gigantic Ancient Belkan warship that could only be used by said kaiser which was flying above Cranagan. That would sort of draw attention, wouldn't you think?
I Think the TSAB has powerfull methods to cover up things like that, the Saint Cradle arises in an apparently unpoppulated area and then rushes into the ocean where it was intercepted by our heroes, then goes to orbit and then got blown up by Chrono's float.

The most public noticeable menace in StrikerS was the attack on RF6 Headquarters because that was located near a populated zone, but during that attack nothing about Vivio was mentioned and she got kidnapped without making a big scandal(TSAB and people in general were more busy surviving the attack of a batallion of gadget drones, the big badass black dragon probably was also a huge distractor.

So yeah, aside from Jail's transmission about his plans on taking Mid-Childa hostage with the cradle it must be relatively easy to cover up the incident from the general public, assuming Scaglietti transmited to everyone and not only to the TSAB. Even Hayate who almost bring a world-destroyer menace into existence is only identifable among the higher ups with people like Subaru, Teana or Ginga knowing close to nothing about her until they started workling togheter(the likes of Vice, Griffith and Shari only know abot her and the Wolkienritter because they got close to them early).

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I think at this point the most likely explanation we'll get is that Vivio simply doesn't live in the Belkan-controlled region on Mid-Childa. For all we know, all the major Belkan religion practitioners live in that territory while the majority of people on Mid don't hold that religion and therefore don't make a big deal about Olivie's genetic legacy.
Talking about that, how far the Saint Church really is from the city? Back in StrikerS Hayate must go covered with a cowl in order to see Lady Carim, Signum drove Nanoha there trough a coast highway and the surrundings make it clear that it was a different enviroment from central Mid-Childa. Now in ViVid, Vivio and co. attend the place frequently on civilian clothes, without any of the aformentioned showings of respect and/or rituals and the place is treated more like a local church than as the big ominious place of religion we saw in StrikerS. Also seems to be surprisingly close to everbody's houses now xDU.
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Old 2011-11-10, 17:45   Link #1447
Keroko
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The Cradle flew straight over a crowded population center and the church does nothing to hide Vivio or Ix's identity considering even their younger nuns are hapilly told about her status.

People just don't care, which is a gaping plothole. Not that it's anything new to the franchise, and frankly actually diving into that plothole would lead to a plot with a moral cespit that makes Force look like My little pony, so I'm not surprised they avoided it like a plague.

Which doesn't make it any less of a plothole, mind.
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Old 2011-11-10, 17:53   Link #1448
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^Well, yeah. It pretty much goes down to that. It's not that unrealistical if you ask me, people tend to forget tragedies quite fast in order to regain the sense or normalcy in their lives.

....the timeskips also help xD!
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Old 2011-11-10, 18:59   Link #1449
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Forgetting about the Marriage shouldn't have been possible; considering that Ixpellia woke up once after Olivie died, the Marriage ought to be a known horror story.

Also, how did Ixpellia end up buried in another ancient ruin AFTER she was unearthed not 10 years before by a modern Orussian? He explicitly used her to create the drones and leader Marriage that killed him.

Although why they then decided to wait for several years before looking for Ixpellia is also not explained.


And I bet Yuuno pitched a fit that someone built an amusement park on an ancient ruin; especially a ruin that had not been excavated enough, judging by the fact that Ixpellia was hidden in it.

WHY it wasn't discovered and excavated earlier is another mystery, considering it was apparently close enough to a major population center that someone thought you could build a successful amusement park at the location.
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Old 2011-11-10, 19:01   Link #1450
Akiyoshi
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^Man, i really need to give a check to SSX, i was been too lazy to do that for a couple of years now. Maybe on Christmas vacations xD
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Old 2011-11-10, 19:59   Link #1451
Kuze
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
People just don't care, which is a gaping plothole. Not that it's anything new to the franchise, and frankly actually diving into that plothole would lead to a plot with a moral cespit that makes Force look like My little pony, so I'm not surprised they avoided it like a plague.
Obviously, the enormous background conspiracy has covertly infected everyone with nanomachines to turn down the population's ability to go nuts over breaking news.

They tend to view their rule as one over a tinderbox that's just waiting for a match.
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Old 2011-11-10, 20:25   Link #1452
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm more disappointed that everybody just seems shrug and moves on. I mean, this girl has been worshiped for centuries. Even if Vivio is only a clone, I'd still expect some more hubbub surounding her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
[...] and the church does nothing to hide Vivio or Ix's identity considering even their younger nuns are hapilly told about her status.

People just don't care, which is a gaping plothole. Not that it's anything new to the franchise, and frankly actually diving into that plothole would lead to a plot with a moral cespit that makes Force look like My little pony, so I'm not surprised they avoided it like a plague.

Which doesn't make it any less of a plothole, mind.
Well technically, she's a clone, not Olivia herself reawakened, so some puritans would call "she's not the real thing!"

But yes, the majority of the flock would have worshiped the ground she stood on. Even if they're not inside Saint Church territory pilgrims from outside areas would have crossed mountain ranges, oceans and even the Dimensional Sea (advanced modern transportation would help, of course ) just to get a glimpse of her.

And then of course, there would be those who considers her existence blasphemous, and yet we never see any indications of security detail watching over her. Takamachi Nanoha might be a feared combat mage, but she's not guarding her daughter 24/7.

so yeah, major plothole. I (again) blame the reincarnation romance angle of the story; for there to be a connection between Vivio and Einhart, they must first know that their ancestors were star-crossed lovers, and that would require Einhart knowing Vivio's true nature.

I don't know why the writers went overboard and make it that the whole world are aware of the identity though, considering all the potential ramifications.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
And I bet Yuuno pitched a fit that someone built an amusement park on an ancient ruin; especially a ruin that had not been excavated enough, judging by the fact that Ixpellia was hidden in it.

WHY it wasn't discovered and excavated earlier is another mystery, considering it was apparently close enough to a major population center that someone thought you could build a successful amusement park at the location.
Add the Cradle to the list. It might not be near a major population center but it's still on the capital of the frickin' Bureau. Ships that big don't normally gone without a trace - heck, there must have been traces, otherwise how did Jail find it? That huge concentration of metal should have tipped of every advanced sensors in the area.
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Old 2011-11-10, 21:00   Link #1453
Sunder the Gold
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Well technically, she's a clone, not Olivia herself reawakened, so some puritans would call "she's not the real thing!"

But yes, the majority of the flock would have worshiped the ground she stood on. Even if they're not inside Saint Church territory pilgrims from outside areas would have crossed mountain ranges, oceans and even the Dimensional Sea (advanced modern transportation would help, of course ) just to get a glimpse of her.

And then of course, there would be those who considers her existence blasphemous, and yet we never see any indications of security detail watching over her. Takamachi Nanoha might be a feared combat mage, but she's not guarding her daughter 24/7.

so yeah, major plothole.
I'll say.


Quote:
I (again) blame the reincarnation romance angle of the story; for there to be a connection between Vivio and Einhart, they must first know that their ancestors were star-crossed lovers, and that would require Einhart knowing Vivio's true nature.

I don't know why the writers went overboard and make it that the whole world are aware of the identity though, considering all the potential ramifications.
Laziness. There were better ways for Einhart to learn about Vivio and her origins.

For one thing, simply running into her face-to-face. As a clone, Vivio would look exactly like Olivie did at that age, and she and Klaus grew up together on Shutra.

A look-a-like who just happens to have the exact same case of hetereochromia? That's simply too big for a coincidence, especially since Einhart herself is proof that a genetic legacy could survive.

Just ask Vivio point-blank if she's related to Olivie; Vivio's shocked reaction will give her away. Especially if Einhart is asking as "Hegemon/Emperor Heidi E.S. Ingvalt" in a dark alley with the threat of violence.


Quote:
Add the Cradle to the list. It might not be near a major population center but it's still on the capital of the frickin' Bureau. Ships that big don't normally gone without a trace - heck, there must have been traces, otherwise how did Jail find it? That huge concentration of metal should have tipped of every advanced sensors in the area.
This has not escaped my attention.

It's like they forgot there was an entire family of archeologists living on the planet!
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Old 2011-11-10, 22:27   Link #1454
Justin_Brett
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Well, a lot of what's being brought up here would be a little out of Vivio's understanding or control at the moment, wouldn't it? She is only ten. And yeah, Nanoha did some crazy stuff around that age too, but she wasn't adopting a position of complete authority.
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Old 2011-11-10, 22:36   Link #1455
Craxuan
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Unfortunately, almost every 'major' plothole can be explained away conveniently, or at least the ones stated above.

Why Vivio wasn't guarded 24/7
1) Difference of worlds. Nanoha's world is a super peaceful place where instead out 99.999 out of 100 people had at least thought of kidnapping Vivio the ratio is the exact opposite, and he has to be a mad scientist, have connections in the TSAB and happened to do a little research in the library. So low. Everyone is good natured and heavy crime only happens once in a blue moon and petty crime happens because the thief's mother is sick and happens to need some money for some medicine.

2) Secrecy. Vivio is clone of Olivie = secret therefore existence will not be questioned no matter how exposed she is because of friendship + love + belief! combination. Actually works, since their world is a place where values are near ideal. Also there's authority from both TSAB and the Church to consider.

About how Cradle is not discovered.
1) The cradle has AMF fields strong enough to nullify ALL magic inside the ship despite having its main engine destroyed, so it's possible that magical sensors simply cannot pick it up because the ship was made of anti-magic materials that naturally prevents sensors from detecting it. Or an explanation similar.

2) Physical weapons were banned. Dunno the timeline between Belkan era and the ban of weapons, but it's possible that when the the banning of physical weapons caused the people to lose their only way to detect the Cradle.

3) Rebuilding. Trying to recover from a war is always harsh, and we don't usually try to find a super, invincible weapon when society is on the verge of collapsing from economy! starvation! etc! number of reasons. If I'm not mistaken it took a long time before they got their scraps together, and by then the people who knew about it died off, the Cradle became a legend, no one could spare time/money to find something that may or may not exist, and heck, let's say you're a normal person. You know the Cradle is directly under Cranagan a.k.a the home you just spent a good ten years to rebuild more or less. Would you try to activate/dig up that s*** and destroy all your blood and tears?

4) An unexpectedly simple explanation really; it was buried too deep. Here's a link how deep real life superweapons can be buried: http://www.cracked.com/article_19501...y-science.html

Okay, maybe not superweapons, but chances are you can live until you die on top of Ice Cube and never know it's actually right under your feet. Detectors simply fail to pick up something so deeply buried.

5) Human nature. I'm telling you that right now there a super-ultra-Nazi-super-cannon buried under your feet. Or the ground you've walked past ten million times has a landmine under it. It is the truth. And 99% of you are going to laugh at my face because hey, what are the chances?... Are you dead yet? No? Lucky bastard...
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Old 2011-11-10, 22:39   Link #1456
Tiresias
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Well, a lot of what's being brought up here would be a little out of Vivio's understanding or control at the moment, wouldn't it? She is only ten. And yeah, Nanoha did some crazy stuff around that age too, but she wasn't adopting a position of complete authority.
Out of Vivio's control, perhaps, but not the people with authority of whom her parents are familiar with. You'd think people like Carim, the Legendary Admirals, or Chrono would have put her on a VIP Protection Program or similar, knowing all the risks implied ranging from endless worshipers to paparazzis to assassins...
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Old 2011-11-10, 22:58   Link #1457
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Maybe, but that would sort of lessen her being the main character, even if she was still the focus.
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Old 2011-11-10, 23:08   Link #1458
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
Unfortunately, almost every 'major' plothole can be explained away conveniently, or at least the ones stated above.
It's not actually a bad thing when plotholes can be explained away.


Quote:
2) Physical weapons were banned. Dunno the timeline between Belkan era and the ban of weapons, but it's possible that when the the banning of physical weapons caused the people to lose their only way to detect the Cradle.
Weapons are not scanners. And as to the point before this one, I think people would get suspicious when their scrying spells keep dying out in one particular big location, as though something were destroying them.

Also, one of the things the TSAB was founded to do was to find and neutralize all remaining mass-based weaponry left over from the war. No one wants unexploded ordinance hiding in wait. Especially not in their own backyard, next to major population centers.

Those would be the first place you look.
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Old 2011-11-10, 23:15   Link #1459
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Anyway, are we just supposed to assume that the worlds of Dahlgryn and Shutra (and any planets that were part of their empires) are totally destroyed, and that's why their descendants all decided to live on Mid-Childa?

Remnants of Shutra and Belka settling on the same planet makes sense, since they were either part of the same empire or at least allied powers. But why Mid-Childa? In all likelihood, Mid-Childa would have been one of their enemies, right? Dahlgryn, too.

For that matter, if Ixpellia was recently dug up by a modern Orussian, how did she end up in an ancient Belkan ruin? Anient Belka was dead before Olivie took the throne, and one of the time's Ixpellia woke up was after Olivie died.

Actually, what was an ancient Belkan ruin doing on MID-CHILDA in the first place? Wouldn't it be an ancient MID-CHILDAN ruin?

Dammit, Mid-Childa isn't a planet! It's a heap of space-flotsam!

It's the Nanohaverse's Traverse Town, where survivors wash up when their planets die.
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Old 2011-11-10, 23:30   Link #1460
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It's the DIMENSIONAL sea dude. ANYTHING can happen. ^^
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