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Old 2011-11-11, 13:15   Link #6801
kk2extreme
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In Avatar, lightning is an advanced form of fire...
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:24   Link #6802
felix
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Everything was so disappointing...

It's like the anti-buildup. The entire manga is moving backwards.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:27   Link #6803
White Silver King
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I'm simply saying Natsu is supposed to be best in his age group before skip. His skill hasn't changed but Max just reached NATSU"S age group now.
...No. Natsu is about 15 and Max is 24.

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Max should definitely tire him out and be somewhat of a challenge, but the gap is supposed to be big because Natsu is 1.) a dragonslayer, 2.) was the best for his age. and, 3.) a new generation of people should not mean automatically better or somehow more of a challenge than the last.
Are you even reading our posts?

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17 year old Natsu (best in his age group) beats 10 year old Max easily
Timeskip: 17 year old Natsu edges out (best in his age group) but is tired after barely beating 17 year old Max But should not require fire/lightning attack.
Max was 17 before the time-skip. He's 24 now. Though I don't see the relevance.

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So unless Max is even older than Natsu, then I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.


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People seem to forget, Natsu is a mage, his magic is something he was taught. He's neither bound to fire magic, nor his existing skill set. It's entirely reasonable for him to learn something new. In this particular case it would seem that after having used Laxus's magic (including his DS magic) for himself, Natsu figured out how to duplicate the effects it added to his magic, though doing so was more tiring than he expected.
It takes years to learn a magic, and you're saying Natsu can now use his magic because he bsed some ability he's never used before to absorb it temporarily? That's retarded but unfortunately I can see Mashima doing it to keep Natsu unbeatable.

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The problem isn't that Max somehow became stronger than Natsu. It's that his strength is presented as nothing special in what became the weakest guild around. He was basically a mook before the timeskip, and he's still a mook now - but the everyone's power became such that Natsu's weaker than that. Which shouldn't have happened in seven piddly years (remember that at the time, the Salamander was known and feared by mages of all ages, not just teenagers). It'd be like saying the average player of 2011's NBA is much stronger than the average player of 2004's player. That, in fact, the average player of 2011 is at the level of of 2004's B-list stars. Admittedly, I don't follow Basket either, but I don't think the game's changed that much in seven years.
He was a "mook" because he didn't get attention because he wasn't a main character, never was it said he was weak. He was part of the strongest guild in the country, he's a strong mage. It doesn't matter his guild fell down in ranks, he still joined when it was number 1. Seven years, in any sense but especially training, is not "piddly" - it is EXTREMELY relevant. Once again, you are underestimating it's importance. And, no offense, you should stop with the sports references since, through your own admittance, you don't know what you're talking about and you've been either wrong or completely missed the point on both. It would be reasonable to same the average ability of NBA stars from 2004 and 2011 is about the same, but you're missing the point. These 2011 NBA stars were only average in 2004 (though average in the NBA is still an extraordinary basketball player, the same of which can be said for Max), but 7 years of training on their part coupled with the lack of training/retirement from the 2004 Stars they became what they are today. Yes their power may be the equal but you are completely ignoring the new guys' growth.

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In Avatar, lightning is an advanced form of fire...
FT is not Avatar. In FT it has already been established that lightning is it's own element not an off-shoot of fire. Plus, lightning being an advanced form of fire really never made any sense - they are completely different things.

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Plus he isn't stronger than Natsu, he still lost the match.
Because of a Mashima asspull -.- Without Mashima's incessant need for Natsu to win, Max is stronger (for now).
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:29   Link #6804
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Max being strong imo is there only to represent FT's power as a whole; its members could beat down anyone if they wanted to but were knee-deep in debt, it was even commented on in this very chapter. Plus he isn't stronger than Natsu, he still lost the match.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:37   Link #6805
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Max being strong imo is there only to represent FT's power as a whole; its members could beat down anyone if they wanted to but were knee-deep in debt, it was even commented on in this very chapter. Plus he isn't stronger than Natsu, he still lost the match.
He lost using a technique that Natsu just made up. He shouldn't have it and should have won without it. By that reasoning Max should be a feared and powerful mage then. If he is, then we're all in agreement.

@ Silver, I know some basketball. What Ann Minh is saying is true to the conversation.

I also admitted to not knowing their ages correctly in an earlier post. Sorry I didn't know their ages it does make sense now, but as I said. Max should be considered a very powerful mage in all of Fiore then.

If you're powerful before the time skip, you're still powerful after too.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:38   Link #6806
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I can see why Gildarts forgave Laxus, seeing as he wasn't around when Laxus wen t loco.

Which reminds me, i need to finish that arc.

Oh well, at least Laxus is cute and his personality isn't terrible anymore. Anywho, i think i should stop reading and try to just watch the show. I like how the anime director, uhh directs everything. The things with the writing is that even during the dialogue, i feel like "oh, that is something Mashima would write" and we're not even supposed to realize the author is there.

Still waiting for more Lucy & Wendy with some Juvia, Levy and Cana in there. Hardly care about the rest until i'm satisfied with at least Lucy or Wendy.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:41   Link #6807
White Silver King
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I also admitted to not knowing their ages correctly in an earlier post. Sorry I didn't know their ages it does make sense now, but as I said. Max should be considered a very powerful mage in all of Fiore then.
No worries, glad we were able to understand each other. About Max, I agree, he should. But that would take away from the excitement of the plot of them becoming number one again.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:45   Link #6808
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
It takes years to learn a magic, and you're saying Natsu can now use his magic because he bsed some ability he's never used before to absorb it temporarily? That's retarded but unfortunately I can see Mashima doing it to keep Natsu unbeatable.
It can take years to learn a magic yes. However Laxus's lighning dragon slayer magic should not be that different from Natsu's fire dragon slayer magic. So having actually used the lightning dragon-slayer magic it should not be that difficult to do so again. Furthermore he's not even using the lightning magic itself separately. Rather when he used it against Hades, the lightning magic modified his fire magic. Now he's just trying to do the same modification on his own.

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Because of a Mashima asspull -.- Without Mashima's incessant need for Natsu to win, Max is stronger (for now).
So I take it you don't count Leon pwning Natsu, Aria pwning Natsu, Fukurou eating Natsu, the Oracion Seis beating up the light-alliance, Cobra having Natsu at his mercy, or Zero pwning Natsu and Gray as defeats?
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:48   Link #6809
Etheral
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
No worries, glad we were able to understand each other. About Max, I agree, he should. But that would take away from the excitement of the plot of them becoming number one again.
Glad we could agree . It might, but that was why I stated the other guilds should have a larger recruitment of people on their level, or close to it. They missed recruiting some good people in the past seven years and it should show a little. So they get ganged up on and it requires teamwork and Lucy has to step up.

Sadly I think my dream of a competent Lucy is many, many chapters away. I think there would be less need of nakama power if Lucy was a factor.

@Krono you forgot the time the bird guy pwned Natsu so bad Gray had to step in before he finished eating him.
Edit: Sorry didn't know his name was Fukurou was the name, yeah I mention that too, about it being the rematch in an earlier post.
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Old 2011-11-11, 14:01   Link #6810
Keroko
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Why is this manga so intent on making us forgive Laxus? This is not meant to hate on the character, but his atonement should be more gradual. When he got excommunicated, we basically get Natsu yelling in our faces about how "overblown" excommunication is, even though he did endanger people. I praise Laxus' involvement in fighting Hades, but it seems like a blatant way to maintain status quo. I just wish it could be handled a bit better.

Anyway, we're finally gonna get some insight on Polyrusica! Yeah, so her constant phrasing wasn't just some boomerang bigotry...
Yeah, I agree. Laxus aside, Gildarts going away, everyone becoming stronger to counter Natsu's growth, this really was a status quo chapter. Yes, yes, it makes sense. but that still makes it a status quo chapter.

And honestly, are we really that surprised the old human hating woman is Grandeene?

Which was one of the things I liked about this chapter. More backgrounds and bigger plot threads about to be revealed.
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Old 2011-11-11, 14:03   Link #6811
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
...No. Natsu is about 15.
Natsu was 17 when FT started.
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Old 2011-11-11, 14:07   Link #6812
Krono
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Fukurou eating Natsu is in there.

Though what isn't is that Max apparently had just won round 1 at the start of this chapter. The fight we got to see was the rematch.

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Natsu was 17 when FT started.
Natsu's age is unknown, as is Gajeel's. Given that they're pretty much treated as the same age as Gray and Elfman who are 18, you can reasonably safely treat Natsu and Gajeel as being 18.
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Old 2011-11-11, 14:12   Link #6813
Anh_Minh
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He was a "mook" because he didn't get attention because he wasn't a main character, never was it said he was weak. He was part of the strongest guild in the country, he's a strong mage. It doesn't matter his guild fell down in ranks, he still joined when it was number 1.
It matters because it means that, strong as he is, he wasn't able to keep his guild from falling. Neither were his friends who were right there wondering if they couldn't take Natsu, too. See, that's the thing. It's not that he became strong. It's that, strong as he is now, he's considered as nothing special, both within his (weakest) guild, or nationally.

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Seven years, in any sense but especially training, is not "piddly" - it is EXTREMELY relevant. Once again, you are underestimating it's importance. And, no offense, you should stop with the sports references since, through your own admittance, you don't know what you're talking about and you've been either wrong or completely missed the point on both. It would be reasonable to same the average ability of NBA stars from 2004 and 2011 is about the same, but you're missing the point. These 2011 NBA stars were only average in 2004 (though average in the NBA is still an extraordinary basketball player, the same of which can be said for Max), but 7 years of training on their part coupled with the lack of training/retirement from the 2004 Stars they became what they are today. Yes their power may be the equal but you are completely ignoring the new guys' growth.
Seven years, for an individual athlete, is a lot. For the sport itself, it's nothing. I'm not comparing an average 2004 player and that same player in 2011. I'm comparing what was considered average in 2004 with what is considered average in 2011. There might be a difference, but it shouldn't be huge.
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Old 2011-11-11, 14:25   Link #6814
White Silver King
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It matters because it means that, strong as he is, he wasn't able to keep his guild from falling. Neither were his friends who were right there wondering if they couldn't take Natsu, too. See, that's the thing. It's not that he became strong. It's that, strong as he is now, he's considered as nothing special, both within his (weakest) guild, or nationally.
The guild needed to fall in ranks with or without the strength of Max and fringe members for Mashima to write the story he wanted to write - the journey of FT becoming number one again.

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Seven years, for an individual athlete, is a lot.
I agree.

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For the sport itself, it's nothing.
I agree.

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I'm not comparing an average 2004 player and that same player in 2011.
You should be.

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I'm comparing what was considered average in 2004 with what is considered average in 2011.
Me too.

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There might be a difference, but it shouldn't be huge.
Not in the abilities of the 2004 player in his prime (2004) and the 2011 player in his prime (2011) but there is a huge difference in ability between the 2011 player in 2004 and the 2011 level in 2011 which is very important and a fact you are completely ignoring, hence our disagreement on the subject.
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Old 2011-11-11, 14:28   Link #6815
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I do see a point why some people think that Max is now stronger than Natsu is a problem.
I believe that people have some kind of power cap or limit, no matter how much they train.I don't mind the timeskip used as a plotdevice to produce more powerfull enemies, after the S-rank arc there weren't that many people left that were stronger than the core FT team in the whole world. But making someone who was really weak pre-timeskip on par with Natsu now, is not credible. That's almost saying that every other guild in Fiore is now on par or stronger than the pre-time skip major vilains from the previous arcs like Jelal, Oraceon seis, Grimoire Heart etc.
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Old 2011-11-11, 14:52   Link #6816
Etheral
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I do see a point why some people think that Max is now stronger than Natsu is a problem.
I believe that people have some kind of power cap or limit, no matter how much they train.I don't mind the timeskip used as a plotdevice to produce more powerfull enemies, after the S-rank arc there weren't that many people left that were stronger than the core FT team in the whole world. But making someone who was really weak pre-timeskip on par with Natsu now, is not credible. That's almost saying that every other guild in Fiore is now on par or stronger than the pre-time skip major vilains from the previous arcs like Jelal, Oraceon seis, Grimoire Heart etc.
That is exactly the problem. Max better be destroying the competition if they ever show him again.

I'll accept the lightning ability as maybe Natsu knew some base lightning magic or picked it up and after the last arc against Hades learned to use it. But this battle, and the implications that Natsu and company are no longer special makes no sense whatsoever.
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Old 2011-11-11, 19:40   Link #6817
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Interesting. So Porl is Grandine? Does that mean the other dragons have taken human form? Or was there something that forced the dragons out of our world, and thus the only way to stay was to take human form, and Grandine was the only one to do so?

As for the Max thing... I go at this from a slightly different angle. Before, the other mages of FT were fairly good, but the core members really seemed to overpower them. It pretty much meant that only the core members could really do anything. But if Max is any indication, then several of them have gotten stronger, and so the time skip brings them on par (almost?) with the mains.

Now I'm just waiting for Lucy to get competent, and Wendy to become a better fighter. Other than that, I'll add that this felt like "get everything back to status quo" chapter. I mean, they just can't get rid of Makarov, can they? Can't even let him step down. Ah well, Laxus is back, although I would have liked a more gradual redemption. Still, it feels like he's learned his lesson, so I don't have too much of a problem with it.

Now, what is "that" that Romeo is talking about? And why do I feel like things are being drawn out?
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Old 2011-11-11, 21:11   Link #6818
White Silver King
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as for the max thing... I go at this from a slightly different angle. Before, the other mages of ft were fairly good, but the core members really seemed to overpower them. It pretty much meant that only the core members could really do anything. But if max is any indication, then several of them have gotten stronger, and so the time skip brings them on par (almost?) with the mains.
Thank you!

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Now, what is "that" that Romeo is talking about? And why do I feel like things are being drawn out?
I'm about 90% positive it's a magic tournament.
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Old 2011-11-12, 01:49   Link #6819
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Old 2011-11-12, 02:48   Link #6820
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
You should be.
I don't see why.

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Not in the abilities of the 2004 player in his prime (2004) and the 2011 player in his prime (2011) but there is a huge difference in ability between the 2011 player in 2004 and the 2011 level in 2011 which is very important and a fact you are completely ignoring, hence our disagreement on the subject.
As I said, my problem isn't that Max became as strong as Natsu. Not in itself. Let's put some numbers on it. Let's say that, pre-timeskip, Natsu was in the first decile of mages in terms of combat power. We don't have an exact figure, but it doesn't matter. (It's also conservative, considering how he went through mooks.)

If the story had been that, in 7 years, Max came into his own, and went from the sixth decile to join Natsu in the first, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Good for him. But that's not the story we've been presented. Even now, Max doesn't have the confidence of an elite mage. Even if he's the strongest of the weakest FT (and we have no word on that), he's not an outlier. He's not the new Gildartz, or even a new Erza. He's still just one of the guys in the weakest guild in Fiore. If Sabertooth got first place with just 5 strong guys, don't you think Max and his friends should have been able to keep FT from last, if they'd been that strong?

And if he's not that strong, what does that say about Natsu and the others' ranking? How could they fall to, say, the third decile in just 7 years?
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