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Old 2011-11-14, 07:13   Link #121
jonli
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God...this episode was so cool.

Kiritsugu's fighting style is super awesome, that gun he got at the end look like those elephant guns that you use tranquilize them.

I was just wondering, when a servant dies his or her soul is just a replica of the original in the holy grail right? So they don't actually die if they die in our world? Saber is the only exception to this because she signed the pack while she was alive?

Then for Archer (fsn) how could he not remember Saber? Or if he does remember Saber, wouldn't he know the outcome of his battle that it is inevitable? Like doesn't he remember his young self besting him? I'm just slightly confused, I've been trying to catch up recently reading all the fate wikia but they don't explain everything or at least not clearly enough, anyone who can clear things up a bit for me would be awesome.
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Old 2011-11-14, 11:27   Link #122
HandofFate
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
God...this episode was so cool.

Kiritsugu's fighting style is super awesome, that gun he got at the end look like those elephant guns that you use tranquilize them.

I was just wondering, when a servant dies his or her soul is just a replica of the original in the holy grail right? So they don't actually die if they die in our world? Saber is the only exception to this because she signed the pack while she was alive?
Even if Sabre dies, it probably wouldn't matter either, since her contract was to obtain the Holy Grail, since she didn't, she would still just reset.

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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
Then for Archer (fsn) how could he not remember Saber? Or if he does remember Saber, wouldn't he know the outcome of his battle that it is inevitable? Like doesn't he remember his young self besting him? I'm just slightly confused, I've been trying to catch up recently reading all the fate wikia but they don't explain everything or at least not clearly enough, anyone who can clear things up a bit for me would be awesome.
Archer does remember Saber, he's just playing dumb.

I don't think the remembering the younger self besting him is the kind of time travel logic that your trying to use.
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Old 2011-11-14, 13:01   Link #123
jonli
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Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
Even if Sabre dies, it probably wouldn't matter either, since her contract was to obtain the Holy Grail, since she didn't, she would still just reset.



Archer does remember Saber, he's just playing dumb.

I don't think the remembering the younger self besting him is the kind of time travel logic that your trying to use.
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Old 2011-11-14, 14:03   Link #124
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So, it's basically bullet-time?
he's nowhere near fast enough to dodge bullets though

@jonli: archer comes from a different route than the ones in FSN. He didn't travel back to his own reality, he traveled back to a different one, hoping the paradox of emiya shirou killing his past self would be enough to erase him as well(and he actually knows that it won't work, he's just doing it partially to avoid young!shirou to end up like him, partially because he's just that desperate)

and saber is also a copy, just like every other servant. So even if servant saber dies in the war, the real one doesn't, until she either obtains the grail or forfeits the wish altogether
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Old 2011-11-14, 14:14   Link #125
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and saber is also a copy, just like every other servant. So even if servant saber dies in the war, the real one doesn't, until she either obtains the grail or forfeits the wish altogether
Actually Saber is an exception. She's the real deal and not a copy, due to a time paradox where she technically isn't dead yet. But you know, we shouldn't be discussing this. The rules in the opening post make this perfectly clear.
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Old 2011-11-14, 14:18   Link #126
jonli
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he's nowhere near fast enough to dodge bullets though

@jonli: archer comes from a different route than the ones in FSN. He didn't travel back to his own reality, he traveled back to a different one, hoping the paradox of emiya shirou killing his past self would be enough to erase him as well(and he actually knows that it won't work, he's just doing it partially to avoid young!shirou to end up like him, partially because he's just that desperate)

and saber is also a copy, just like every other servant. So even if servant saber dies in the war, the real one doesn't, until she either obtains the grail or forfeits the wish altogether
I asked the question about Saber being a copy in the Q&A, and it seems like she is the only original one, which is why she remembers the grail wars she attended, and can remember Shirou when she returned to her time. I guess if she dies her spirit just goes back and chills until she's summoned again? But then someone said that the lesser grail is made of the spirits of the dead servants....so wouldn't Saber's original soul be donwloaded too? Anyway I asked this already in the Q&A so let's move it over there in case we get off topic too much.

Seeing as how most of these characters don't even show up in FSN...this is going to be a tear-jerker...damn it....especially Kariya....GOOD GOD.....poor guy. He's not even mentioned by Rin or Sakura in FSN.... SNIFF.
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Old 2011-11-15, 13:00   Link #127
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It doesn't matter that the replicas are a little lower quality than the originals. They both break when they clash.

Cost efficiency inside UBW also doesn't matter because it's a fixed cost for expanding UBW which instantly prepares all the swords. Because Shirou had UBW inside him also meant that Shirou was able to instantly store a blueprint of any sword Gilgamesh pulled out with just a glance.

Shields only cost 2-3 times more than swords (according to the ingame status screen not the wiki). Considering Shirou can fire off at least a dozen swords in all the routes, it's really not that big of an issue.

Finally, the game clearly states that inside UBW, Shirou's swords were being activated faster than Gilgamesh could.



Nonetheless, a serious Gilgamesh would still beat Shirou because his servant level stats are still far higher than what Shirou could muster. Furthermore, he'd be wearing his armor which was able to deflect a few blows from Saber. Therefore he'd be able to pull out Ea and use it without his arm getting cut off.

So even if we stacked the deck and let Shirou fight Gilgamesh inside UBW to begin with, he'd still lose out because Gilgamesh is so stupidly broken.
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Old 2011-11-15, 18:03   Link #128
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I'd like to thank Nasu for giving us such delightful ambiguity so as to provide us with limitless discussion.
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Old 2011-11-15, 21:08   Link #129
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Really?

Nasu would be the first person to say "Nah, Gilgamesh is actually really really really broken. You said he got owned by a human/lesser Servants in my writings? That's just my plot device called 'King of Arrogance and Carelessness In Front of Mongrels' at play."

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Old 2011-11-15, 21:18   Link #130
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
Seeing as how most of these characters don't even show up in FSN...this is going to be a tear-jerker...damn it....especially Kariya....GOOD GOD.....poor guy. He's not even mentioned by Rin or Sakura in FSN.... SNIFF.
Nor is Aoi, in fact.

She and Kariya suffer from the fact that FSN was written before Zero and, thus, at the time when Nasu was writing FSN he hadn't even thought of those characters. Aoi is the more obvious one, though, because IIRC Rin never even mentions that she had a mother in FSN. It's almost like Nasu got to planning out Zero and suddenly realised "wait, children have two parents, don't they...?"
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Old 2011-11-17, 15:54   Link #131
jonli
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Nor is Aoi, in fact.

She and Kariya suffer from the fact that FSN was written before Zero and, thus, at the time when Nasu was writing FSN he hadn't even thought of those characters. Aoi is the more obvious one, though, because IIRC Rin never even mentions that she had a mother in FSN. It's almost like Nasu got to planning out Zero and suddenly realised "wait, children have two parents, don't they...?"
Actually I don't think that's too far of a stretch. I mean Rin was mentored by Kotomine and it is said that she is the head of her family no? So it is sort of implied that she's an orphan and not talking about her parents is fine.

Kariya not being mentioned by Sakura I just feel is heart wrenching since he's going through so much for them. It's like I know you're gona die...but good god do you have to die LIKE THAT? Being eaten inside out by worms ...
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Old 2011-11-17, 17:39   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
"Nah, Gilgamesh is actually really really really broken"
he did say that if Gilgamesh actually was serious about winning in the 4th war, he could have single-handedly crushed the other 6 servants in one night...

with maybe the exception of saber alter(at least, if she had avalon), no servant stand even the slightest chance in a 1vs1 fight against a serious Gilgamesh, no matter how much you stack the odds against him...
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:57   Link #133
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Nor is Aoi, in fact.
Who is Nor?
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Old 2011-11-17, 19:25   Link #134
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Kariya not being mentioned by Sakura...
She has Shirou in FSN, so...
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Old 2011-11-18, 04:48   Link #135
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Actually I don't think that's too far of a stretch. I mean Rin was mentored by Kotomine and it is said that she is the head of her family no? So it is sort of implied that she's an orphan and not talking about her parents is fine.
Well, she's pretty much stated to be an orphan, yes. But, whilst her father gets a reasonable mention, her mother isn't mentioned at all. Nasu seemed to have failed to recognise that she even had one....

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Kariya not being mentioned by Sakura I just feel is heart wrenching since he's going through so much for them. It's like I know you're gona die...but good god do you have to die LIKE THAT? Being eaten inside out by worms ...
Yeah, it is rather sad....

In fact, when I've written post-HF fics, I actually have Sakura remember Kariya, and name her child after him. And I've seen others do similar things, too.

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Who is Nor?
Erm, "nor" as in "a nor b are true"....
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Old 2011-11-18, 07:30   Link #136
jonli
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She has Shirou in FSN, so...
Kariya's more of a father figure though...I mean she's her favourite penis and all but it ain't the same.

I was always a bit surprised that Gilgamesh is so strong in this particular rendition. He's really only strong because of Gates of Babylon so I'm sure there are other ways to trick him or defeat him. It's like he is only as strong as his ego let's him to be, and he's quite pathetic in that aspect. I guess we can say that he didn't win the 4th war because Tokiomi wasn't a competent enough master to control him? (I didn't read the novels yet so I don't know why he lost)

Is Arcueid stronger than Gilgamesh? She's suppose to be one of the strongest beings in Nasuverse right?
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Old 2011-11-18, 07:38   Link #137
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No, Gilgamesh is definitely a though cookie, virtually the best Servant in both 4th and 5th war, and in a very high tier in term of powerlevel in Nasuverse.
You can say he is actually "strong enough" to have such arrogance in Zero (although in FSN, he is basically nutty).

Arcueid is only stronger than Gilgamesh if she unleash her full power (which would make her second strongest being in nasuverse, same rank as Crimson Moon, second to ORT). But under her "usual" 30% mode, she is at most equal to Gil.
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Old 2011-11-18, 08:19   Link #138
jonli
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No, Gilgamesh is definitely a though cookie, virtually the best Servant in both 4th and 5th war, and in a very high tier in term of powerlevel in Nasuverse.
You can say he is actually "strong enough" to have such arrogance in Zero (although in FSN, he is basically nutty).

Arcueid is only stronger than Gilgamesh if she unleash her full power (which would make her second strongest being in nasuverse, same rank as Crimson Moon, second to ORT). But under her "usual" 30% mode, she is at most equal to Gil.
30% at most equal to Gil basically means at 100% she'll rape Gil a new asshole.

There's something that I wondered about. Servants basically get their powers and abilities enhanced by the holy grail, and their stats are also rearranged by their class type. So in reality without being a Servant, and at his original form, Gil's powers would probably be lessened?
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Old 2011-11-18, 08:45   Link #139
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You will never see Arcueid in 100% anyway, considering it would go against her own character altogether. That's why in Fuyuki's powerlevel chart, Arcueid in 100% mode is never mentioned, since it is, for the lack of better terms, impossible to occur.

Anyway, the holy grail only serve as a "vector" to call forth the Heroic Spirits from the Throne of Heroes in Akasha, while Masters serve as anchors for them to the world.
Past this point, the Holy Grail doesn't really do much about these, aside of collecting the defeated servants as prana mass.

There are a lot of "environmental" points that affect servants (such like terrain, classes etc) but generally speaking, they are as powerful as their past deeds/legends dictate so.
Of course, every Servants are "more powerful" due to their nature of Heroic Spirit, meaning they have to be dealt with conceptual weapon, instead of physical weapons. But such chance of nature doesn't mean they have a "boost" in its truest sense.
In the case of Gil, it is very unlikely he would be "less" powerful, especially that he doesn't have a "fame" bonus unlike Saber with Arthurian's legends.
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Old 2011-11-18, 09:14   Link #140
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
I was always a bit surprised that Gilgamesh is so strong in this particular rendition. He's really only strong because of Gates of Babylon so I'm sure there are other ways to trick him or defeat him. It's like he is only as strong as his ego let's him to be, and he's quite pathetic in that aspect. I guess we can say that he didn't win the 4th war because Tokiomi wasn't a competent enough master to control him? (I didn't read the novels yet so I don't know why he lost)
he didn't really lose, and the reason why he didn't win is because he didn't care about winning, plain and simple

and yes, gilgamesh is only as strong as his ego let's him be, because otherwise he'd be a story breaker and nobody in fate would stand a chance against him

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Is Arcueid stronger than Gilgamesh? She's suppose to be one of the strongest beings in Nasuverse right?
Arcueid has horrible compatibility against Gilgamesh, and while she's more powerful, in a 1vs1 fight, she'd most likely lose

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There's something that I wondered about. Servants basically get their powers and abilities enhanced by the holy grail, and their stats are also rearranged by their class type. So in reality without being a Servant, and at his original form, Gil's powers would probably be lessened?
No. The grail doesn't boost anything, and servants generally have less prana than they did in life and thus lower stats. Although some get special NPs they may not have had in life, so it really depends on the servant. Saber for example, is specifically much weaker than she was in life, while Saber Alter is more powerful than she was in life because of the difference in prana

Gilgamesh is likely the kind who was more powerful in life than as a servant(like probably ever other servant in the 4th and 5th war except for EMIYA)

and anyways, it doesn't matter since he's the kind who relies on his story-breakingly-powerful NP rather than stats...
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