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Old 2011-11-13, 23:50   Link #41
Kunagisa
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Time for a bit more explanation again.

As Shirojiro explained, SANCT (which is a type of Inari god) allows the purchase of power from the other gods; the medium he used here is Heidi's Erimaki (the fox). In the novel
Spoiler for novel:
The fox allows the purchase of labor from the Labor God, who in term puts a protection spell on the people, whose labors are being purchased, to make sure they are safe (Heidi mentioned this; might revise this later, my understanding of this seems to be different from the Q and A answer).

The payments are then made via the shrine that host the SANCT god. As for the price,
Spoiler for novel:

This is literally hax by money (and obviously very inefficient and only achievable by misers who count their pennies daily ...).

As for Naomasa, as previously discussed, Gods of War operate by assimilating a person with the God to increase the sync ratio so to speak, but Naomasa's a bit different, she assimilated her mouse in there, in that essence these aren't really "Mecha", so they can have a personality, look feminine etc.
Spoiler for Novel:


Will leave the rest of the economic and some of the more precise fight details in the episode discussion for when the TAN sub comes out (speed sub kinda glanced of some of the terms, which can't be helped and is acceptable because most of everything is correct).

Last edited by Kunagisa; 2011-11-14 at 23:27. Reason: added a bit more
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Old 2011-11-14, 14:44   Link #42
SagaraSouske
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@stuopidget, since you are very knowledgeable about VN. I have a lot of questions that I hope you can explain:

1. If as you say Toori's class have a lot of monsters and Naomasa's HGOW is on par with 8 dragon kings, why would the teacher of the class easily defeat all their attacks in Ep1? It seems unlikely to me that the teacher is that powerful.
2. Someone already asked this but I will repeat it again: with the amount of technology displayed so far - highly sophisticated energy, gravity manipulation, advanced information processing and distribution, ships, god of war, etc, why are they not back in space again? The technology possessed is far in advance of capabilities to simply build space ships and send them out. At the least they can colonize entire solar system.
3. I don't understand why everyone can only occupy 'Fast East'. Even with the rest of the world destroyed. With the technology available, can't they simply just rebuild it? I mean they are capable of building a world in another dimension. What is stopping them building more continents, or more dimensional pocket worlds?
4. If history reenactment was meant to take them towards space faring technology again(I will for the moment suspend the issue I raised with question 2.), why would they not reenact technological advancement as well from history? Simply reenacting political factions does not seem a good way to follow the same path of humanity ages past.
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Old 2011-11-14, 17:27   Link #43
Kunagisa
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I don't think I can answer all the questions fully but I will try my best.

1.
Short answer: Nobody took that lesson seriously at all.
Long answer: The powerhouses of the class are (in no particular order)
Spoiler for Novel:

Teacher is pretty powerful, but not as one-sided as shown in the episode.

2.
Technology was not 100% recovered. Based on what was shown previously in other novels, the people in Horizon are not the strongest in City-verse (Kawakami's version of Nasuverse) at its technological peak. I'm personally guessing they need the absolute best technology to "go back to space".

3.
Far East is the only faction living on Earth when people returned from space, everyone else was from the Harmonic Divine State. No matter how strong your tech is, you can't fight every single other faction. There are also more ridiculous monsters out there, some of those people are actually "Invincible" under certain conditions.

As for why can't they just rebuild everything, I think Kawakami never gave a clear explanation beyond the lands became inhabitable, which to me just means either those polluted areas are unsalvageable, or that Earth will regenerate over time on its own at a speed that can't be increase by technology. I mean if they have such strong technology, the corruption on the world is probably operating on a totally different level than nuclear pollution etc.

4.
The whole system of this is based on the Testament, the entirety of how that thing works in the novel that is not fully explored yet. I'm afraid with my current knowledge I cannot provide a definite answer for this.

Other novel readers feel free to chime in ;__; I apologize if my answer is not entirely satisfactory at this point.

Last edited by Kunagisa; 2011-11-14 at 17:38.
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Old 2011-11-14, 18:21   Link #44
Chaos2Frozen
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@stuopidget

Adele is defensive? I thought she was an offensive Lancer class character from the first episode?
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Old 2011-11-14, 19:03   Link #45
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who and what are the gods the people make bargain with?
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Old 2011-11-14, 19:41   Link #46
kemal_1915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
3.
Far East is the only faction living on Earth when people returned from space, everyone else was from the Harmonic Divine State. No matter how strong your tech is, you can't fight every single other faction. There are also more ridiculous monsters out there, some of those people are actually "Invincible" under certain conditions.

As for why can't they just rebuild everything, I think Kawakami never gave a clear explanation beyond the lands became inhabitable, which to me just means either those polluted areas are unsalvageable, or that Earth will regenerate over time on its own at a speed that can't be increase by technology. I mean if they have such strong technology, the corruption on the world is probably operating on a totally different level than nuclear pollution etc.
I have less info than stuopidget about KnH but I am more familiar with OnC
about Q3, I don't know the exact reason but I can make a guess by my knowledge
The problem maybe about the "Concept Core". In Kawakami's view, the world is built on "concept". "sky" is "sky", "ground" is "ground", "left" is "left" and "right" is "right". If the "Concept Core" of the world is out of control, "sky" may become "ground", "left may become "right" and many other change and make the entire world unstable. The plot of OnC is finding a way to stop the out of control of "Concept Cores". So, it may happen again after a long time later (right before the KnH story). And I don't think they can deal with this now.
However, this is just a guess.
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Old 2011-11-14, 19:58   Link #47
Marcus H.
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So that explains the "destruction of the law of causation" on the early synopsis of Horizon.
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Old 2011-11-14, 20:13   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemal_1915 View Post
I have less info than stuopidget about KnH but I am more familiar with OnC
about Q3, I don't know the exact reason but I can make a guess by my knowledge
The problem maybe about the "Concept Core". In Kawakami's view, the world is built on "concept". "sky" is "sky", "ground" is "ground", "left" is "left" and "right" is "right". If the "Concept Core" of the world is out of control, "sky" may become "ground", "left may become "right" and many other change and make the entire world unstable. The plot of OnC is finding a way to stop the out of control of "Concept Cores". So, it may happen again after a long time later (right before the KnH story). And I don't think they can deal with this now.
However, this is just a guess.
If we follow the same concepts in OnC, then the uninhabitable condition outside Far East had exacerbated rather than convalesced because the Gs in Owari no Chronicle is literally the same as the Harmonic worlds in Horizon. Now that Harmonic Divine States is destroyed, the balance of the concepts between worlds is disrupted. If you think of it like that, the impending "apocalypse" might be caused by imbalance of concepts after the Harmonic Divine States fused with the Divine States, only it is insidiously expanding at this moment.

I have this particular doubt, if the "heaven" Kawakami was referring to in Horizon's history is really the outer space we know, or it's a totally different place in another dimension only reachable not by rocket spaceships but a significantly advanced technology. If it's the latter, that kinda explains why they can't return to heaven yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
2. Someone already asked this but I will repeat it again: with the amount of technology displayed so far - highly sophisticated energy, gravity manipulation, advanced information processing and distribution, ships, god of war, etc, why are they not back in space again? The technology possessed is far in advance of capabilities to simply build space ships and send them out. At the least they can colonize entire solar system.
It's because there is no point going outside the space. Even if they can go outside, they cannot reside in there as they rely heavily on the world's Leyline/Ether Vein to exist, I think.

Last edited by Suiri Megami Alice; 2011-11-14 at 22:27.
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Old 2011-11-14, 21:07   Link #49
Kunagisa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
@stuopidget

Adele is defensive? I thought she was an offensive Lancer class character from the first episode?
She's a Juushi/従士 as mentioned in episode 1, which was translated as retainer but the best translation is actually a thegn/thane (honestly if you just dump the term into google translator this would've came up instantly ... I guess the official sub tried to make it as simple as possible). This is the relationship between Adele and Neito if you see it in the fan made relationship chart.

Thegn --> Knight (--> King)

What this means ...
Spoiler for novel:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
who and what are the gods the people make bargain with?
Previously Gods are concept cores that represent the G (the world) itself. The ones in here are not explained I think (they're more like the traditional Shinto gods).
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Old 2011-11-15, 06:48   Link #50
Einst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
She's a Juushi/従士 as mentioned in episode 1, which was translated as retainer but the best translation is actually a thegn/thane (honestly if you just dump the term into google translator this would've came up instantly ... I guess the official sub tried to make it as simple as possible). This is the relationship between Adele and Neito if you see it in the fan made relationship chart.

Thegn --> Knight (--> King)
Isn't it easier to think her as a heavy knight?
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Old 2011-11-16, 07:07   Link #51
MorningGlory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
4. If history reenactment was meant to take them towards space faring technology again(I will for the moment suspend the issue I raised with question 2.), why would they not reenact technological advancement as well from history? Simply reenacting political factions does not seem a good way to follow the same path of humanity ages past.
I thought they did reenact technology(scientist:Galileo Galilei) from the history.
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Old 2011-11-16, 10:15   Link #52
Chaos2Frozen
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The reason why I think their reenactment focuses heavily on conflict is because War has always been the biggest, most major corner stones in human history- some of the greatest achievements arises from conflicts, and this includes technological advancement.

Our own space race was in the middle of the cold war, and the technology before that started with WWII.
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Old 2011-11-16, 13:06   Link #53
SagaraSouske
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We didn't have energy or gravity manipulation or giant robots at the point of history they are reenacting. Technology does not seem to be part of the reenactment.

As for the strength of all the monsters in Toori's class. Most of their strength appears to stem from their weapon/armor/technology.
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Old 2011-11-16, 16:42   Link #54
Kunagisa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Einst View Post
Isn't it easier to think her as a heavy knight?
Possibly. I'm just trying to find the matching terms and how they are translated in history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
We didn't have energy or gravity manipulation or giant robots at the point of history they are reenacting. Technology does not seem to be part of the reenactment.

As for the strength of all the monsters in Toori's class. Most of their strength appears to stem from their weapon/armor/technology.
That's kinda a retro statement. Say if I lost a wallet, I am retracing my steps to try to find it, there's no way I can 100% replicate the moment when I lost my wallet. Only certain trigger events are deemed important, and I think that's what they're going for here.

I think you might've taken what I meant by monster too literally; I just meant they have decent fighting abilities, which yes does include their equipments.
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Old 2011-11-17, 09:18   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post

2.
Technology was not 100% recovered. Based on what was shown previously in other novels, the people in Horizon are not the strongest in City-verse (Kawakami's version of Nasuverse) at its technological peak. I'm personally guessing they need the absolute best technology to "go back to space".

3.
Far East is the only faction living on Earth when people returned from space, everyone else was from the Harmonic Divine State. No matter how strong your tech is, you can't fight every single other faction. There are also more ridiculous monsters out there, some of those people are actually "Invincible" under certain conditions.

As for why can't they just rebuild everything, I think Kawakami never gave a clear explanation beyond the lands became inhabitable, which to me just means either those polluted areas are unsalvageable, or that Earth will regenerate over time on its own at a speed that can't be increase by technology. I mean if they have such strong technology, the corruption on the world is probably operating on a totally different level than nuclear pollution etc.
So when is the City-verse at it's strongest depicted so far? AHEAD in OnC? Or the CITY era?

The Harmonic States aren't just a simple thing floating in the sky right? I mean the places where it lands after the fall seem to have the laws of reality warped....

Quote:
If we follow the same concepts in OnC, then the uninhabitable condition outside Far East had exacerbated rather than convalesced because the Gs in Owari no Chronicle is literally the same as the Harmonic worlds in Horizon. Now that Harmonic Divine States is destroyed, the balance of the concepts between worlds is disrupted. If you think of it like that, the impending "apocalypse" might be caused by imbalance of concepts after the Harmonic Divine States fused with the Divine States, only it is insidiously expanding at this moment.

I have this particular doubt, if the "heaven" Kawakami was referring to in Horizon's history is really the outer space we know, or it's a totally different place in another dimension only reachable not by rocket spaceships but a significantly advanced technology. If it's the latter, that kinda explains why they can't return to heaven yet.
So the Concept Cores are natural or artificial?

Quote:
It's because there is no point going outside the space. Even if they can go outside, they cannot reside in there as they rely heavily on the world's Leyline/Ether Vein to exist, I think.
But a human needs Haki to live and people are able to exist outside of Earth....or is this only fairly recent?


Also....since the Musashi is basically a flying Ether powerhouse.....how the hell are the other factions still so much more powerful than the Far East? And where do they get their energy from before they forced it out of the Musashi?
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2011-11-17 at 09:32.
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Old 2011-11-17, 09:59   Link #56
kemal_1915
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
So when is the City-verse at it's strongest depicted so far? AHEAD in OnC? Or the CITY era?
It should be EDGE (full of space and dimension tech) > AHEAD (develop into EDGE) > GENESIS (lost tech after EDGE) > (the following is a guess) FORTH (before AHEAD and tech of Concept Core) or OBSTACLE > CITY (everything is destroyed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
The Harmonic States aren't just a simple thing floating in the sky right? I mean the places where it lands after the fall seem to have the laws of reality warped....
There is tech to create alter dimension (Concept Dimension) in AHEAD but I don't know if it is the case in KnH. Maybe stuopidget can give us the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
So the Concept Cores are natural or artificial?
The answer is both. The "Concept" (e.g. "up","down","left","right"...) is natural but they are put into a "Core" which is artificial.
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Old 2011-11-17, 11:14   Link #57
Kunagisa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemal_1915 View Post
There is tech to create alter dimension (Concept Dimension) in AHEAD but I don't know if it is the case in KnH. Maybe stuopidget can give us the answer.
Pretty sure this is the same. I'm speculating this thing mentioned back in episode 2



is similar to the Concept Core weapons in OnC honestly (and obviously tectonic plate is "mistranslated" here). When they are lost and overlap happened, instead of having stable alternate dimensions like OnC, you get random pillars of light in the sky that kinda just "burns" things going through it.

I mean Henry VIII made Garden (furigana: Avalon) inside London Tower, and that's an alternate dimension, so the technology obviously still exist.
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Old 2011-11-17, 16:41   Link #58
Suiri Megami Alice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
So the Concept Cores are natural or artificial
As what kermal had said, you can extract concepts into core, and then you can create artificial areas with that concept (this is called concepted area <概念空間>, and they can coexist with the real world). There are usually two concept cores: One is for the characteristic of their G world, and the other that makes up their own world.

For example, when all the Gs had collapsed after the Concept War, the denizens of the G-worlds were forced to take refuge in the real world (notice the resemblance to Horizon? The real world is called Low-G instead of Divine States).

1st and 3rd G survivors created a concepted area for their settlements because 1st Gs cannot survive under Low-G environment (the real world) since their gene patterns revealed to be resembling that of words that make them exist (1st G's concept manisfests word's power, in other words, whatever you write will become real), and automated dolls cannot function unless under 3rd-G environment due to the "metals have life" concept.

In other words, they can create an artificial parallel area as long as you have the concept core that makes up that world. I think the technology they used to create the Harmonic Divine States is kinda like a variant of that, although I am not sure. Kawakami didn't mention that much about how Harmonic Divine States were created.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:40   Link #59
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The Concept Core/Area reminds of Earth in John Ringo's Council War.
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Old 2011-11-17, 19:20   Link #60
Marcus H.
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Are concepts of all 10 Gs have been revealed in OwaChro?
All these links with Horizon makes me wonder if I should integrate Owari no Chronicle into the Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon Wiki.

Currently, the only ones I know are
1 - Manifestation of the Power of Words
2 - ??
3 - Metals Have Life
4 - ??
5 - ??
6 - ??
7 - ??
8 - ??
9 - ??
10 - ??
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