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Old 2011-11-21, 02:49   Link #3281
AuraTwilight
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Well the one that was alive was Yasu not Shannon or Kanon. Also those two are just personality created by Yasu and i think the only way kill them was to make everyone believe that those two are dead .
The problem is that they're the same person. Things that are dead can't come back to life. Things that are dead leave a corpse, or are otherwise no longer alive. 'Shannon and Kanon' count as people in the Red, meaning that if they die, they should be corpses. But they're not. They just change clothes and keep doing stuff, and they can come back as soon as they feel like dressing up again.

You can't even say they're separate entities like in Multiple Personality Disorder; Yasu is merely a dedicated actress.
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Old 2011-11-21, 03:16   Link #3282
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The problem is that they're the same person. Things that are dead can't come back to life. Things that are dead leave a corpse, or are otherwise no longer alive. 'Shannon and Kanon' count as people in the Red, meaning that if they die, they should be corpses. But they're not. They just change clothes and keep doing stuff, and they can come back as soon as they feel like dressing up again.

You can't even say they're separate entities like in Multiple Personality Disorder; Yasu is merely a dedicated actress.
Oh I think the interpretation of dead for those two was the problem here. The fact that they are just personality unables them to leave a corpse. So there's only one way for the personality to die. It's by telling everybody that Shannon/ Kanon was dead and try to make them believe it. Just like Kinzo in Ep5 but in reverse. In reverse i by trying to make everyone believe that Kinzo was still alive even though he's already dead.
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Old 2011-11-21, 03:28   Link #3283
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But they're NOT ACTUALLY DEAD is the problem. Meaning you can lie in the Red. Meaning it's worthless for what it was designed to do.
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Old 2011-11-21, 10:06   Link #3284
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But they're NOT ACTUALLY DEAD is the problem. Meaning you can lie in the Red. Meaning it's worthless for what it was designed to do.
Kinzo died before October 1986.
All the adults aknowledged Kinzôs presence at the 1986 family conference in EP4.

This is what I'm trying to get across all along...this is not about wether they are actually dead, they were never alive to begin with! The question is, how can something die and then later make its form reappear again.

Did Kanon and Shannon make a proven reappearance after their death in any Episode? In EP2 Kanon is dead, for example. Then somebody who everybody claims looked like Kanon "but wasn't really him" appeared at the door.
This is a mystery isn't it? Resorting to "The Red Text lied because they were never really dead" is an instant defeat, because you basically admit that there is some unexplainable/magical element that makes them special. Think around a little how the Red can be true...it's not that hard and it doesn't make the Red text a lie...it merely makes the user a lot more playful in his choice of words.
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Old 2011-11-21, 11:09   Link #3285
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They acknowledged the presence of a store house full of gold

Having to rationalize the Shannon/Kanon is/are dead thing though is a whole different level. It basically (at the time) left us with personality death or a name trick and it still felt like cheating for some reason. While the Kinzo one didn't really feel like it though. Well thats my opinion anyways.
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Old 2011-11-21, 12:41   Link #3286
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Spoiler for Arc 7 spoiler...:

Shannon and Kanon are "roles", fake servant names that constantly are referring to themselves as furniture. To the point I think now I feel like you really have to be ridiculously stubborn and of bad faith to consider them faking death in red to nullify the worth of any given red.
Yet I was one of the person most offended by the idea when it began to be obvious...
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:53   Link #3287
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Personally, it's not really the "Shannon or Kanon is just a role" sort of death that gets me - it's that, even when both are considered dead, their body is allowed to get up and STILL DO STUFF.

Who is this person that's neither Shannon or Kanon? The narrative gives us NO reason to suspect Shannon is anybody but who she claims to be (as, unlike Kanon, everyone has known her since she was six), and EP5 makes a big deal that the culprit has to be somebody that we already know.
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Old 2011-11-21, 15:11   Link #3288
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I guess you'll have to blame that arc 1 has very old translation patch compared to later arcs. But George says to Shannon something that should basically come out as ...
"So far, you have been living inside this shell known as Shannon"
In arc 1. That's enough to guess that Shannon is not who she claims to be, I think.

Also, even tho I constantly use the word "role", I still think we should see Shannon and Kanon as "dolls" in "Yasu"s mind (not that it really changes much).
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Old 2011-11-21, 15:33   Link #3289
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Thats pretty circumstantial because Shannon isn't even her name and he could very well mean something like "You are too stuck up on being a servant and should expand your horizon out of this island" Sure, with hindsight it definitely can be seen as a nod to Yasu or something.
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Old 2011-11-21, 16:32   Link #3290
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Kinzo died before October 1986.
All the adults aknowledged Kinzôs presence at the 1986 family conference in EP4.
Kinzo doesn't even need to be alive for that, though. Corpses have a presence.

This is a form of weasel-wording the red that's technically valid since it plays off of Battler's presuppositions without actually redefining any words.

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Did Kanon and Shannon make a proven reappearance after their death in any Episode? In EP2 Kanon is dead, for example. Then somebody who everybody claims looked like Kanon "but wasn't really him" appeared at the door.
They don't need to have a proven reappearance; the text suggest that it's possible, invalidating the idea that they're dead in any meaningful sense unless Yasu herself becomes a corpse.

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This is a mystery isn't it? Resorting to "The Red Text lied because they were never really dead" is an instant defeat, because you basically admit that there is some unexplainable/magical element that makes them special.
No, not at all. This isn't logically valid, and you know it. If Shannon dies, what does it mean? If Yasu is still alive all it means is that Yasu isn't putting on a meido costume anymore. They're still the same person. They have the same thoughts, emotions, and memories. The person count on the island doesn't change whatsoever. There's no corpse. And as long as Yasu is revived, she can just put on her Shannon costume again and BOOM, she's alive again.

This is the problem.

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Think around a little how the Red can be true...it's not that hard and it doesn't make the Red text a lie...it merely makes the user a lot more playful in his choice of words.
Or outright deceitful and abusive of how language works. The term 'Dead' means something. If you're going to change what it means and not fucking tell anyone, that's not clever. That's just deceitful for the purpose of protecting your really obvious plot twist.

Battler killed everyone! Ahahahaha.wav Oh fooled you, Ange. When I said that Red, "Killed" actually meant "Loved." DERP.

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Also, even tho I constantly use the word "role", I still think we should see Shannon and Kanon as "dolls" in "Yasu"s mind (not that it really changes much).
Except, again, they can come back whenever she wants. Unless Yasu dies, these characters never die in any meaningful sense. It's just a trick, but that trick doesn't really help Battler or the reader figure things out. It exists just to fuck with them. Battler even moreso, since he's extremely handicapped by his emotions and the fact that he knew Shannon like his whole life.
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Old 2011-11-21, 20:06   Link #3291
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The term 'dead' can mean many things. Like say... Dead Language? Are you telling me there MUST be a 'Latin' corpse floating out around there?

I'm sure people have argued to this to you before, but if I make something that is clearly not human dead, there doesn't have to be a corpse. And if I trick you into believing that that thing which acts human but isn't, you can't say that the words were lies. You can call out that you've been had by a dirty trick though.
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Old 2011-11-21, 20:38   Link #3292
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The term 'dead' can mean many things. Like say... Dead Language? Are you telling me there MUST be a 'Latin' corpse floating out around there?
Languages becoming deceased isn't really something that happens in mystery stories.

(and there kind of are corpses for dead languages; ever heard of the Rosetta Stone? ^_~)

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I'm sure people have argued to this to you before, but if I make something that is clearly not human dead, there doesn't have to be a corpse.
Shannon and Kanon are not "clearly" un-human. Infact, their nature is a major plot twist, so the fact that Beatrice just dropped these statements with no further context is inherently deceptive. It's a lie of omission since she went out of her way to make him believe something which Is Not True. There's more to lying than just using words wrong.

The red truth is simply the truth. The deaths of Shannon and Kanon do not fit that red, because no only is it not simple, or true, or simply the truth, but it is actively, deliberately designed to make Battler and the reader believe something else besides what is actually true.

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And if I trick you into believing that that thing which acts human but isn't, you can't say that the words were lies.
Yes, I can. That which is dead does not come back to life. Shannon and Kanon can come back to life. Ergo, they are not among the deceased.

The word is being given a special rule that is not intuitive, does not apply to anything else in the series, and is not congruent with anything to do with any of the word's definitions in the common public consciousness.

It would be like saying Yasu saved everyone when 'saved' means 'murdered' because lolgoldenland.

There's absolutely no good reason for Ryukishi to have done this other than to protect his twist, but it's not a good twist because not only is it obvious since way earlier than he revealed it, but his attempts to protect the twist actively damaged the rest of his narrative. He undermined the integrity of his novel by making Beatrice a dishonorable cheater who doesn't respect her own rules that she created.
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Old 2011-11-21, 21:24   Link #3293
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The point "dead languages" is an intriguing argument to me. Kylon99 is right in that "dead" is proven to have multiple meanings in the real world, but AuraTwilight is correct in saying that Ryukishi's usage of the word "dead" is unfair in the novel, if for no other reason that we have no way of reasoning that an alternate interpretation is possible in the case of Kanon and Shannon.
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Old 2011-11-21, 22:22   Link #3294
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Languages becoming deceased isn't really something that happens in mystery stories.

...

Yes, I can. That which is dead does not come back to life. Shannon and Kanon can come back to life. Ergo, they are not among the deceased.
Maybe this is a better analogy. My Betsy died on the way back from work. It was truly a horrible experience.

But I called mechanic and he got it working again. (Note it doesn't have to be 'alive' after it died...) 8)

This IS a dirty trick though, if I made you think my wife died or something. 8)


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Shannon and Kanon are not "clearly" un-human. Infact, their nature is a major plot twist, so the fact that Beatrice just dropped these statements with no further context is inherently deceptive. It's a lie of omission since she went out of her way to make him believe something which Is Not True. There's more to lying than just using words wrong.
Well, I know that they kept going over and over how they were furniture and we all seemed to refuse it like we thought they were talking about how they were slaves. But Jessica made that point to Kanon and he kept saying it was something different. So there were these vague hints that they two had some sort of unnatural 'exception' to death and life.

Plus also they had memories of prior games so that was a huge red flag.

But I agree with you here, the lie is definitely a lie. But I'm classifying it as in, a lie by telling you the truth without you really having the proper understanding.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The red truth is simply the truth. The deaths of Shannon and Kanon do not fit that red, because no only is it not simple, or true, or simply the truth, but it is actively, deliberately designed to make Battler and the reader believe something else besides what is actually true.
By the way, I took a closer look at where we got this idea from:

At the beginning of its first usage it was like this, Beatrice:
When I speak the truth, I will use red.
Everything I speak in red is the truth.


Where we get simply is from Lambda when she was slamming out red truths about the dining hall.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!

And also from Cornelia or Guardrail--I mean Gertrude
Know that the red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence or proof

So technically idea of red being the 'simple' truth doesn't come from Beatrice herself. She merely says that when it's red, she is 'speaking the truth.'

One set of reds declare that the red is a way of guaranteeing what happened without the need for evidence or proof. Whereas the other one is what Beatrice declares to be true.

I know we've been group all the reds as 100% truthful, no matter whom spoke them. And I don't think at this point we need to disregard reds at all. (Since I believe the red is really an extension of the R-Prime authors.) So, I don't think this proves anything at all, but it is indeed interesting to how Beatrice frames the red compared to LD. I think Beatrice still had a clear intention to deceive, however.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
He undermined the integrity of his novel by making Beatrice a dishonorable cheater who doesn't respect her own rules that she created.
I'm not entirely disliking the idea that Beatrice was a dishonorable cheater in this one instance though. Like, I don't need her to be a totally fair game player for the narrative to be enjoyable. Having a character who plays fair and noble until it hits upon something dear and then changes their style of play can be very enlightening. Basically, I'm more of the opinion that a deception, obvious as it was, tells me more about a person than the simple truth sometimes.


And like I said, she said the truth, but she failed to context it so we ended up being deceived. I remember we got warnings where Ryukishi said "women cannot say what they want sometimes and need to resort to doing things to get you to do it." Rather than 'women,' I get the feeling now he means 'woman' or 'Yasu' specifically.

EDIT:


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Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
The point "dead languages" is an intriguing argument to me. Kylon99 is right in that "dead" is proven to have multiple meanings in the real world, but AuraTwilight is correct in saying that Ryukishi's usage of the word "dead" is unfair in the novel, if for no other reason that we have no way of reasoning that an alternate interpretation is possible in the case of Kanon and Shannon.
Yeah, I'm thinking that it's unfair like you guys, but now... unfair for a reason. Or purposely unfair, sticking out like a sore thumb because this is what she wanted to bring attention to. What do you guys think? (Seeing as this is only the EP5 thread...)
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Old 2011-11-21, 22:24   Link #3295
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The point "dead languages" is an intriguing argument to me. Kylon99 is right in that "dead" is proven to have multiple meanings in the real world, but AuraTwilight is correct in saying that Ryukishi's usage of the word "dead" is unfair in the novel, if for no other reason that we have no way of reasoning that an alternate interpretation is possible in the case of Kanon and Shannon.
Especially since they're given in the exact same context as other characters, such as the end of EP3.

Saying Natsuhi is dead! Hideyoshi is dead! Rosa is dead! Maria is dead! Shannon is dead! One after another like that doesn't make me think in any way that Shannon is somehow special. I don't know how anyone could without using banana logic.

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Maybe this is a better analogy. My Betsy died on the way back from work. It was truly a horrible experience.

But I called mechanic and he got it working again. (Note it doesn't have to be 'alive' after it died...) 8)

This IS a dirty trick though, if I made you think my wife died or something. 8)
But it's not actually dead; it's just stalled. Moreover, the context of the statement INTUITIVELY allows the reader to know that you're talking about a machine, not a person. The novel never comes out and says that Shannon and Kanon are not people until ages later. Sure, they're called furniture, but whenever they do they also go "But we're human/can become human" and we're given no indication it's not just some Fantasy thing.

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Well, I know that they kept going over and over how they were furniture and we all seemed to refuse it like we thought they were talking about how they were slaves. But Jessica made that point to Kanon and he kept saying it was something different. So there were these vague hints that they two had some sort of unnatural 'exception' to death and life.
Yea it also says they're homunculi created by Kinzo, except they're not. How are we supposed to differentiate this single kernel of information out of all the bullshit?

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Plus also they had memories of prior games so that was a huge red flag.
Kumasawa can turn into a witch and cast magic, too, and was the original Beatrice. It was a HUGE RED FLAG that Kumasawa was the original Beatrice Kinzo fell in love with, which many people speculated.

Except she wasn't.

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I'm not entirely disliking the idea that Beatrice was a dishonorable cheater in this one instance though. Like, I don't need her to be a totally fair game player for the narrative to be enjoyable. Having a character who plays fair and noble until it hits upon something dear and then changes their style of play can be very enlightening. Basically, I'm more of the opinion that a deception, obvious as it was, tells me more about a person than the simple truth sometimes.
Possibly, and I'm willing to give Beatrice a pass on this considering how personal it was to her, but that doesn't help Ryukishi, who has NO excuse. So it kind of trickles down the layers of narrative and kind of makes Beatrice look shittier because Ryukishi is a shitty game-player who doesn't respect his audience enough to be straight with them when the situation calls for it.

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And like I said, she said the truth, but she failed to context it so we ended up being deceived. I remember we got warnings where Ryukishi said "women cannot say what they want sometimes and need to resort to doing things to get you to do it." Rather than 'women,' I get the feeling now he means 'woman' or 'Yasu' specifically.
I still say it's not the truth, however, since Shannon and Kanon don't die in any meaningful way. They just step off-stage.

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Yeah, I'm thinking that it's unfair like you guys, but now... unfair for a reason. Or purposely unfair, sticking out like a sore thumb because this is what she wanted to bring attention to. What do you guys think? (Seeing as this is only the EP5 thread...)
I don't think so. Countless people guessed Shkanon WITHOUT those reds, and those reds infact kept some stubborn people from reaching the Shkanon conclusion. It does nothing but impede people's reasoning, it does not HELP it. And the Red Truth exists to HELP us.

No matter how I slice it, this situation is a failure of the Red.
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Old 2011-11-21, 22:26   Link #3296
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Especially since they're given in the exact same context as other characters, such as the end of EP3.

Saying Natsuhi is dead! Hideyoshi is dead! Rosa is dead! Maria is dead! Shannon is dead! One after another like that doesn't make me think in any way that Shannon is somehow special. I don't know how anyone could without using banana logic.
That's if you read all of that in isolation. But isn't that the trick of the Red Text? To let you think that only the red text is relevant and nothing else (the white text) is.

Because if you start taking the white text about Shannon and Kanon's background... well, let's just say people started thinking they were the same as of EP2 (but they were panned back then.)
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Old 2011-11-21, 22:45   Link #3297
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That's if you read all of that in isolation. But isn't that the trick of the Red Text? To let you think that only the red text is relevant and nothing else (the white text) is.
No, that has nothing to do with it. The statements are right there with the exact same words, syntax, and semantics. There is no logical reason to differentiate the statements.

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Because if you start taking the white text about Shannon and Kanon's background... well, let's just say people started thinking they were the same as of EP2 (but they were panned back then.)
Even back then, most people thought that both personalities being dead meant that there was an actual Shkanon-corpse, and even if they didn't, people used the MPD interpretation to theorize that these separate minds were somehow erased.

And that didn't turn out to be the case either, so how are these reds not completely arbitrary and meaningless? Nothing is disappearing, dying, being removed, or lost. At best they're going to sleep or leaving the proverbial room. No actual, meaningful 'dying' is occurring, so this is still a blatant lie in the red.
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Old 2011-11-21, 23:14   Link #3298
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No, that has nothing to do with it. The statements are right there with the exact same words, syntax, and semantics. There is no logical reason to differentiate the statements.
I noticed how you ignored my car analogy when it became inconvenient.

And now you're just going over and over again about a tiny small context of the use of the word 'dead.' Well, if you just want sound like a broken record, go ahead.

But here's a bone for you:
"My pa is dead, my ma is dead. Even Betsy is dead!"

There's no logical reason to differentiate the statements. There's no logical reason NOT to either. Especially when you know the other person is trying to hide a murder mystery trick.

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Even back then, most people thought that both personalities being dead meant that there was an actual Shkanon-corpse, and even if they didn't, people used the MPD interpretation to theorize that these separate minds were somehow erased.

And that didn't turn out to be the case either, so how are these reds not completely arbitrary and meaningless? Nothing is disappearing, dying, being removed, or lost. At best they're going to sleep or leaving the proverbial room. No actual, meaningful 'dying' is occurring, so this is still a blatant lie in the red.
Maybe because there was a third personality that also needed to die? If you're willing to accept that after two personalities die that then there can be a corpse.. then why not three? Or four?

No, it's not a blatant lie in red, no matter what you say, no matter how pendantic you are or how many times you repeat it. You ignored my car analogy didn't you?

And like you just implied and others have said, over and over and over again, that the red can be used to declare those people who are dead from even just a game!


"I died last night while fighting a Greater Dragon in Skyrim."
"You liar! You're not dead!"
"..."



Honestly, try to understand that people are agreeing with you sometimes. Of course these statements all misled you. But none of them were lies.
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Old 2011-11-21, 23:24   Link #3299
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I noticed how you ignored my car analogy when it became inconvenient.
I already answered your car analogy, what the hell is your problem?

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And now you're just going over and over again about a tiny small context of the use of the word 'dead.' Well, if you just want sound like a broken record, go ahead.
Well, it's only one problem. What else is there to say? It's not my fault that I can give the same responses to your arguments; it's the same type of 'solution' dressed up in different ways.

By the way you can stop being a total dick any time now. I'm being pretty civil with you, can't you meet me halfway?

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But here's a bone for you:
"My pa is dead, my ma is dead. Even Betsy is dead!"

There's no logical reason to differentiate the statements. There's no logical reason NOT to either. Especially when you know the other person is trying to hide a murder mystery trick.
Right, but it deliberately misleads the reader to think something that isn't true ("Betsy is a person and she is deceased"), and it hampers people's reasoning to understand what you're trying to convey, so you have NO REASON not to pick a better word choice unless you're being dishonest.

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Maybe because there was a third personality that also needed to die? If you're willing to accept that after two personalities die that then there can be a corpse.. then why not three? Or four?
There's the whole 18 persons reds that people were hung up on. Since Shannon and Kanon could die, they seem to be considered 'persons' even if they're only 'personalities'. If there was a 3rd personality, it would be a 19th person.

Such was the reasoning back then. Again, Umineko does nothing to curb against this, and given his reactions to the Japanese fanbase, Ryukishi seems to be aware it was going on. Either way, he's using the red to deliberately mislead people from the truth he intended. Because he wants to have his M Night Shyamalan twist.

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No, it's not a blatant lie in red, no matter what you say, no matter how pendantic you are or how many times you repeat it. You ignored my car analogy didn't you?
No, I found FAULT with it. Your car analogy was not sufficient enough to defuse my point of dissatisfaction because it wasn't equivalent to the Shannon/Kanon death situation.

Quote:
"I died last night while fighting a Greater Dragon in Skyrim."
"You liar! You're not dead!"
"..."
IN SKYRIM.

That right there fucks over your entire analogy. There's no equivalent point of information that gives a separate quantifier to Shannon and Kanon that sets them apart from every other character on the island. Now, if the red was I died last night in a fight and you didn't give any more information, your analogy would be more fitting, and it would be a lie by omission because it was a deliberate misholding of information to make your listener accept a false idea.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2011-11-21, 23:25   Link #3300
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Saying Natsuhi is dead! Hideyoshi is dead! Rosa is dead! Maria is dead! Shannon is dead! One after another like that doesn't make me think in any way that Shannon is somehow special. I don't know how anyone could without using banana logic.
Battler reasoned something about the names not matching up with the people on the island to explain Nanjo's murder.
It's not like a silly theory about small bombs or whatnot.
... Actually I'd sorta like to imagine what would people's reactions be if Battler's small bomb theory turned out to be true...
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