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Old 2011-11-23, 08:42   Link #3321
Cao Ni Ma
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We went trough this not that long ago in the spoiler thread. The most logical conclusion given the evidence is that some rifles where loaded with larger caliber rounds while other ones where loaded with smaller ones. We cant really say that there was a handgun involved unless we actually saw evidence of one.

But using a rifle this size, even with the smaller winchesters like the trapper series, it kinda makes it difficult for it to slip trough a well with a cover like that. A pistol would make more sense, either that or someone was still alive at the time and forced it trough.
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Old 2011-11-23, 10:06   Link #3322
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
We went trough this not that long ago in the spoiler thread. The most logical conclusion given the evidence is that some rifles where loaded with larger caliber rounds while other ones where loaded with smaller ones. We cant really say that there was a handgun involved unless we actually saw evidence of one.

But using a rifle this size, even with the smaller winchesters like the trapper series, it kinda makes it difficult for it to slip trough a well with a cover like that. A pistol would make more sense, either that or someone was still alive at the time and forced it trough.
True, with the rounds, it just seems like kind of a hassle to be bothering with two different sorts of bullets.

Also, I don't recall the specifics, but I remember the measurements of the well being ample enough to let the winchester fall in easily. I sort of imagine her holding it in such a way that it's already positioned to fall through the grate, and not onto it, as soon as she lets go.

There would, of course, be the possibility of failure with that, but hey, surrendered to fate.
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Old 2011-11-23, 10:23   Link #3323
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Its very small, about 7 inches wide between each bar. Even if its a set of bars running parallel to each other without another one crossing in between them its small. Using a string + weight system here just wouldn't guarantee it going down the well. If there where no strings though she could just slump herself over the well, stretch her arms to the trigger and shoot herself while the rifle already cleared the grate. She would be face down on the well with her arms inside of it though. Pretty easy to guess what could have happen if Battler found her like this.

e- I also dont trust the whole possibility of failure thing with Yasu. The witch that lent her powers was Labda, Witch of Certainty. Certainty doesn't come by chance, you make it happen.
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Old 2011-11-23, 11:18   Link #3324
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That doesn't mean it's impossible; you can effect the blast of a gun dependent on things like whether or not it's sawed off, how close it is to the target's face, and other things like that.
It doesn't matter whether the shooter was close to the victim though. If they had a sawed-off winchester rifle with normal rounds. It doesn't make any difference.

I think Large Caliber rounds can't do that kinda of damage. If the shooter was close enough to the target then there's suppose to be a large gaping hole in the victims head. But what Battler saw was a Head half destroyed. Also the Winchester rifle can't carry a large caliber round to begin with.

its appropriate to think that someone else smashed half of their heads
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Old 2011-11-23, 11:38   Link #3325
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It doesn't matter whether the shooter was close to the victim though. If they had a sawed-off winchester rifle with normal rounds. It doesn't make any difference.

I think Large Caliber rounds can't do that kinda of damage. If the shooter was close enough to the target then there's suppose to be a large gaping hole in the victims head. But what Battler saw was a Head half destroyed. Also the Winchester rifle can't carry a large caliber round to begin with.

its appropriate to think that someone else smashed half of their heads
First, yes they can use large caliber rounds and magnum versions of them that have much larger force behind them. These rifles probably aren't original versions and instead are updated versions made by different manufacturers that allow these rounds to be used. We can get a clue of Kinzo using replicas and whatever with the stakes so the same could apply to the rifles.

Second, A magnum round has a lot of force behind it. I can see it ripping a head apart really easy. The issue was always about getting it to smash only half of the head and leave the other half relatively fine.

Third, if you want to go hyper realistic with this. A head exit wound, even from a pistol is pretty nasty. Far nastier than the pretty little gunshot wounds that these characters suffered. So we can, of course leave it at author incompetence in the matter.

e- Exit wound ballistics are pretty funky depending on the rifle, i dont know how much spin these rifles put on the round but I've known cases of hitting someone in the chest and having the round come out of their leg basically taken it out completely.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-11-23 at 12:06.
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Old 2011-11-23, 16:11   Link #3326
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
First, yes they can use large caliber rounds and magnum versions of them that have much larger force behind them. These rifles probably aren't original versions and instead are updated versions made by different manufacturers that allow these rounds to be used. We can get a clue of Kinzo using replicas and whatever with the stakes so the same could apply to the rifles.

Second, A magnum round has a lot of force behind it. I can see it ripping a head apart really easy. The issue was always about getting it to smash only half of the head and leave the other half relatively fine.

Third, if you want to go hyper realistic with this. A head exit wound, even from a pistol is pretty nasty. Far nastier than the pretty little gunshot wounds that these characters suffered. So we can, of course leave it at author incompetence in the matter.

e- Exit wound ballistics are pretty funky depending on the rifle, i dont know how much spin these rifles put on the round but I've known cases of hitting someone in the chest and having the round come out of their leg basically taken it out completely.
Yeah the gun was a custom made based on kinzo's references. But as the tip in ep1 said It was made to handle .45 long-colt bullets. I think that bullet wouldn't be able to destroy half their heads though.

Well were are not sure whether the destroyed part of their head was the the exit wound.
anyways, Something weird was going on in that Ep and i think it had something to do with the gun. If what you said is true then how come the other victims only had a single hole in their head oppose to the half destroyed head of the other victims.
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Old 2011-11-23, 20:41   Link #3327
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Its very small, about 7 inches wide between each bar. Even if its a set of bars running parallel to each other without another one crossing in between them its small. Using a string + weight system here just wouldn't guarantee it going down the well. If there where no strings though she could just slump herself over the well, stretch her arms to the trigger and shoot herself while the rifle already cleared the grate. She would be face down on the well with her arms inside of it though. Pretty easy to guess what could have happen if Battler found her like this.

e- I also dont trust the whole possibility of failure thing with Yasu. The witch that lent her powers was Labda, Witch of Certainty. Certainty doesn't come by chance, you make it happen.
I hate to argue a probably not-terribly-important point, but while eight inches (20cm) isn't very wide (that's the full length of my open hand), , you can fit a fair bit of your arm through bars that far apart. The Mares Leg looking rifle is almost certainly small enough to drop through, easy peasy. She wouldn't even have to have her arms in the well, just a bit of the butt.

In hindsight (since I just zipped to the scene to verify where Shannon was - "right next to the well"), I never actually questioned the positioning of Nanjo and Krauss's corpses (literally, why the hell were they back there?). But that's a question for another thread, I guess.
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Old 2011-11-23, 21:39   Link #3328
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The only problem I have with the Winchesters is the hint at the beginning of EP4 where someone came in and shot 6 people in rapid succession. The Winchesters are described as being 4+1, for a total of 5... so, I think this was a hint that some other gun with at least 6 bullets can be used.

Mind you, this could've been a fantasy scene where 'Kinzo' all got them to pretend that they were executed by a gun in rapid succession... hm.
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Old 2011-11-24, 04:07   Link #3329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
The only problem I have with the Winchesters is the hint at the beginning of EP4 where someone came in and shot 6 people in rapid succession. The Winchesters are described as being 4+1, for a total of 5... so, I think this was a hint that some other gun with at least 6 bullets can be used.

Mind you, this could've been a fantasy scene where 'Kinzo' all got them to pretend that they were executed by a gun in rapid succession... hm.
Not necessarily.
Didn't Kinz˘ summon 3 Chiesters during that scene? While ONE culprit wouldn't be able to handle at least 2 guns, a culprit handing out weapons would provide enough firepower and only 2 of each gun would have to be fired at all. Kinz˘ said that he would start the roulette when he summoned the Chiesters and that it was completely up to fate who would be killed. A "violent storm in the dining hall" could just as well describe a shoot-out between the different parties.

Each Chiester also killed different people. Natsuhi, Hideyoshi and Rudolph were killed by Chiester 45 and 410s beam (they even held 2 bows in the anime version, but we don't know which arrow hit whom). Then 00 pinned Krauss to the wall, 410 cornered Nanj˘ (together with Kumasawa and G˘da). Genji and Eva weren't killed by direct shots but by the beams still whirling around the room (accidental shooting?) and finally Rosa was killed by 00 when she attacked Kinz˘ (who funnily wasn't doing anything at all).
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Old 2011-11-24, 22:06   Link #3330
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Ah well, that's too bad. I was thinking there had to be some clue of a hand gun somewhere. I actually remember vaguely thinking someone must have had one in EP2.

It's tough to imagine ...
Spoiler for Not sure if this really belongs in spoilers...:
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Old 2011-11-26, 10:49   Link #3331
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Spoiler for Not sure if this really belongs in spoilers...:
You don't have to 'fling' the rifle into the grate , you hold it over the grate, and it'll just fall in because of gravity. If she were even a bit removed from the well, it'd be harder to imagine, but Shannon and Nanjo were right next to it.

Also, the culprit probably DID have the rifle on them for the entirety of Alliance. It's the only story that doesn't really involve "survivors huddling together", where it'd need to be hidden.
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Old 2011-11-27, 03:06   Link #3332
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That doesn't really work.

Kanon is dead. (Used by Beatrice in Tea Party.)
Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.
In short, he was the 9th victim.


Kanon died before Battler dealt with Beatrice, who is physically the same person as Kanon, and she must have killed herself or otherwise died after talking with Battler. Meaning that Kanon did not die at the same time as Beatrice/Shannon.
I think i'll reply again to this. I think kanon died the same time as shannon. In ep4,Battler went to the Mansion and stayed there for 6 hours so maybe its possible that the last part of the fantasy scene that we saw happened during this 6 hour time frame. The part were Kyrie are running away and being killed one by one. Well it's a fantasy scene so that scene must be different to what really happened. But i can't figured out it yet.

anyways, I don't think that Yasu was the murderer in Ep4 though. Its hard to believe that she killed all of them one by one. Well i think its possible that she and Dr. Nanjo commited suicide in front of that well when Kryie and the others escaped. The real murderer killed them and tried to mimic the epitapt murder.
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Old 2011-11-27, 04:51   Link #3333
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Quote:
I think i'll reply again to this. I think kanon died the same time as shannon. In ep4,Battler went to the Mansion and stayed there for 6 hours so maybe its possible that the last part of the fantasy scene that we saw happened during this 6 hour time frame. The part were Kyrie are running away and being killed one by one. Well it's a fantasy scene so that scene must be different to what really happened. But i can't figured out it yet.
This doesn't change the fact that Kanon is the 9th victim. For your idea to work, Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice all have to have died BEFORE Kyrie, Nanjo, Krauss, and the others. Fantasy scene or not, Battler was able to confirm their deaths later, so they weren't just killed by a bomb. Who killed them?

Quote:
anyways, I don't think that Yasu was the murderer in Ep4 though. Its hard to believe that she killed all of them one by one. Well i think its possible that she and Dr. Nanjo commited suicide in front of that well when Kryie and the others escaped. The real murderer killed them and tried to mimic the epitapt murder.
And who would THAT be? Why are they emulating the Epitaph? And why would Shannon/Kanon and Nanjo kill themselves?
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Old 2011-11-28, 04:18   Link #3334
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You don't have to 'fling' the rifle into the grate , you hold it over the grate, and it'll just fall in because of gravity. If she were even a bit removed from the well, it'd be harder to imagine, but Shannon and Nanjo were right next to it.
Yeah, I remembered the discussion a few posts back right after I posted that.

The other thing is the idea about flinging the Winchester behind the dresser. I was thinking that instead Ryukishi may have wanted to use the scene from And Then There Were None in it's entirety, which includes a revolver and not a sawed-off rifle.

But...

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Also, the culprit probably DID have the rifle on them for the entirety of Alliance. It's the only story that doesn't really involve "survivors huddling together", where it'd need to be hidden.
What about EP3 where...
Spoiler for you know, I'm not sure if I should put these things in spoilers or not... but...:


If there is a revolver in play, I don't like how there aren't really any clues to it's existence over just simply using a Winchester, though.
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Old 2011-11-28, 16:27   Link #3335
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Kylon, regarding George's death in EP3 : when the survivors found Hideyoshi, Kyrie, and Rudolf dead in the mansion, they noted that the two guns their party brought, had been lost. In other words, the survivors then only had two guns and the other two are open to shoot whomever.
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Old 2011-12-12, 04:40   Link #3336
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@Auratwilight: I'l just give up on that fucked up logic of mine since it doesn't make

sense.


Anyways, I read the ???? tea party of Ep5 again and i kinda have a question. It's when Battler reached the truth. I noticed that he said something

like he won't lose the truth again. This means he knows the truth before right? and now he was protecting that Illusion of the witch. If he wanted to

expose the truth before then Why did he had a sudden change of heart and now he wants to protect the Illusion of the witch?
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Old 2011-12-12, 05:05   Link #3337
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I don't think he knew the truth beforehand; he's saying he won't become ignorant again. He protects the illusion of the witch because it seems that the truth changed his perspective on things. My personal theory is that he learned that Beatrice isn't the culprit, but is taking the blame for someone else, and he wants to respect her wishes.
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Old 2011-12-13, 02:12   Link #3338
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I don't think he knew the truth beforehand; he's saying he won't become ignorant again. He protects the illusion of the witch because it seems that the truth changed his perspective on things. My personal theory is that he learned that Beatrice isn't the culprit, but is taking the blame for someone else, and he wants to respect her wishes.
I you read ???? tea party again i think you will notice it. He really said "Again" i swear.

anyway, I agree with what you said. But in a different way. I think Battler learned the "real truth" but he just didn't want to reveal it. Instead he just took over Beatrice place to hide the truth forever.
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Old 2011-12-13, 02:14   Link #3339
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I you read ???? tea party again i think you will notice it. He really said "Again" i swear.
I know. I'm saying you're misunderstanding the use of "again" in this grammar context.
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Old 2011-12-13, 02:17   Link #3340
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I know. I'm saying you're misunderstanding the use of "again" in this grammar context.
how so? To me it seems like we have to read it literally not metaphorically.
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