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Old 2011-11-23, 11:52   Link #25901
Tazar
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Hello, I've been visiting this thread every once in a while for the last months.

I have quite a bit of questions regarding the series (Haven't finished Ep8, but saw quite a lot of spoilers about, so feel free to say anything regarding it)

So, first question is, how did Sakutaro end up in Kawabata's house?
Did he find it somewhere around Rokkenjima? Did he find it in one piece?

As far as I know, in Tsubasa, there is a story about Sakutaro going through Purgatory, he ends up all dirty and what not (Being this the Fantasy explaniation about how he got in that state, he is found afterwards by Ange)

Kuwabata finding it means that Sakutaro was carried by either Maria or Rosa during October 4th.

I think that Rosa fixed it in secret and intended to give it back to Maria as a present during the family meeting.

I belive that Rosa fixed it because, when Ange finds it in 1998, she gives it back to Maria in the Meta-World. I don't think that Maria (At least in Ange's mind) would be that happy to recieve Sakutaro if it was still all torn up (As in, how Rosa left it after going all batshit insane in EP4)

The above is just a small theory that (If correct) applies to Rokkenjima Prime.
Not a huge hint about the biggest mystery in the series, but at least it would reveal a bit of the real nature of Rosa.
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Old 2011-11-23, 12:05   Link #25902
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Yeah, I personally think that Rosa made some new Sakutaro's for Maria to give to her in Prime, forgot them and left them in the boat. Ultimately it really doesnt matter much unless things would have been different if Maria had actually gotten them in Prime. At least with this interpretation we can believe that Rosa regretted her decision.
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Old 2011-11-23, 12:59   Link #25903
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Simple, there were no murder game in EP1 and 2, the theory really started going out after ep3 and 4. It kinda solidify in ep5 and was really present in ep6.
Yeah I tend to believe this.

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Rosa would need to have noticed it and rebelled instantly against any plan they might have had, which means that she would have shot Yasu in her face the moment she noticed they where really dead or when she found Jessica stabbed. So it comes back to some form of collusion with Yasu.
I still want to know what happened when Rosa went up to Kinzo's room with Shannon. If Rosa was the only one there with a gun... then I don't see how she wouldn't try to force whatever she wanted out of Yasu instead of going through some convoluted game to get some reward from Beatrice.

Which is why I proposed the idea a while ago that Rosa somehow didn't know that Shannon (or Kanon) was the mastermind.

Actually, there's that Rosa ending in the new Ougon Musou Kyoku game which kind of supports this theory, because, assuming the OMK ending was based off of EP2, if Rosa knew Shannon was Beatrice then she wouldn't be looking for her after killing Battler; she'd know Beatrice was dead.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Or...

1) Yasu sets the trigger on "on" when everyone is asleep somewhere between 0:01 and 5:00 of October 5th
2) Yasu kills Kumasawa and Nanjo at the very time they disappear (or shortly after) in secret place "x"
3) Yasu brings Gohda and George to Natsuhi's room where she kills them.
4) Then Yasu makes a phone call to Genji (who is her accomplice, albeit he won't kill people himself) telling him to prepare Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses and so on.
5) Before Genji finishes the preparations Yasu kills herself creating the final closed room.
6) profit (sort of...)
That's all sensible, but we were talking about a what-if scenario with Genji being completely innocent of any involvement in real murder (his lies being merely part of what he thought was a murder game).

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
AuraTwilight said that Tohya wrote the stories and Ikuko edited. I remember reading that Tohya gave ideas and Ikuko wrote. Which is it? I haven't actually read the second half of EP8, but you can see I have spoiled myself a bit. Can't really help it if I frequent this thread.
We don't really know. The Ikuko/Touya backstory comes to an end right at the point when Touya's memory returns, so we never actually learn anything directly about the writing process surrounding the Rokkenjima fictions themselves. However, up to that point we learn some things that can perhaps help us guess:
  • At first Ikuko writes Mystery novels as a hobby but never releases them... and it's implied that she doesn't because she feels they are somehow not good enough to be released to the public. Touya is the only one who reads them.
  • At some point the two of them co-write a story which both of them are very pleased with, and they both give each other all the credit: Ikuko says it was Touya's plot that made it good, and Touya says it was Ikuko's writing that made it good.
  • They publish this story and apparently become known writers (because in episode 6 Ange would have to know of the author "Hachijou Touya" in the first place in order to make the 18^8 connection).
  • Keep in mind this all happens before Touya's memory returns.

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Originally Posted by Tazar View Post
I have quite a bit of questions regarding the series (Haven't finished Ep8, but saw quite a lot of spoilers about, so feel free to say anything regarding it)

So, first question is, how did Sakutaro end up in Kawabata's house?
Did he find it somewhere around Rokkenjima? Did he find it in one piece?
Well, in Rondo (the PS3 version of Umineko) we are actually shown a whole bag full of Sakutarous at Kawabata's place. There are various theories about this, ranging from "Rosa just bought some random mass-produced toy and lied to Maria when she said she made it" to "Rosa made Sakutarou for Maria and later had her company mass-produce Sakutarou", as well as some others.
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Old 2011-11-23, 13:42   Link #25904
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Simple, there were no murder game in EP1 and 2, the theory really started going out after ep3 and 4. It kinda solidify in ep5 and was really present in ep6.
And how do you explain Hideyoshi lying about Shannon's corpse?


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That's all sensible, but we were talking about a what-if scenario with Genji being completely innocent of any involvement in real murder (his lies being merely part of what he thought was a murder game).
It's hard to explain that scenario without at least Genji knowing Yasu's real plan.
You'd need to think that he still thought everything is fake after seeing the real corpses of Nanjo, Kumasawa, George, Hideyoshi and Yasu herself.

In particular I'd think he'd check that Nanjo and Kumasawa are in place before going to tell Rosa that he found them, but they had to be already dead at that time, it would be very difficult for Yasu to kill them in the short time span where Genji went to tell Rosa and then quickly move to Natsuhi's room and prepare her own death.

However if they were already dead when Genji checked Kumasawa and Nanjo, it's quite hard to believe he didn't talk them or try to talk to them.

Lastly if he found out people died for real only at that point I'd think even him couldn't maintain his cool, especially after seeing Yasu dead as well.


EDIT: Anyway, what about this?

The whole lot of Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Gohda and George are waiting for the next instructions. Yasu tells Genji to remain inside the servant room, in case Rosa or Battler tries to contanct them, one must be there and stall them. Then she tells George and Gohda to go to Natsuhi's room and prepare the scene for the next closed room scenario (they had to mess it up right?) in the meantime she'll help Nanjo and Kumasawa with their makeup so that their death will be realistic.
After she is alone with Nanjo and Kumasawa at the right place, she gives them the most realistical makeup ever. then she goes to Natsuhi's room where George and Gohda have made a mess out of Natsuhi's room as per plan. Yasu tells them "good job" and then "rewards" them for their efforts. At that point she makes a call to Genji she tells him "all is set, go to Rosa and bring her to where Kumasawa and Nanjo are". Genji being a robot obeys blindly to the order without checking Nanjo and Kumasawa first. In the meantime Yasu closes the door and then kills herself with the method described by Ryuukishi.

How about that?


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, in Rondo (the PS3 version of Umineko) we are actually shown a whole bag full of Sakutarous at Kawabata's place. There are various theories about this, ranging from "Rosa just bought some random mass-produced toy and lied to Maria when she said she made it" to "Rosa made Sakutarou for Maria and later had her company mass-produce Sakutarou", as well as some others.
It was hinted inside the story itself that Sakutaro was a mass produced toy.
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Old 2011-11-23, 14:11   Link #25905
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Well...that exaggerated view is something Ryukishi is fond of, in Higurashi we have
Spoiler for Higurashi culprit:
That person was not the hero, though. Yasu/Beatrice gets treated extremely positively, hence the disconnect, and if she's covering up someone else's crime, she allows that person to "get away with it." It's fine to sympathize with her, but let's not forget that if she really is the R-Prime culprit as Ryukishi will-he-or-won't-he hints at, she's the villain.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
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Old 2011-11-23, 14:25   Link #25906
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And how do you explain Hideyoshi lying about Shannon's corpse?
Coercion or collusion? Take your pic really. Same thing applies to Rosa lying about Kinzo and the door. There's always a possibility that they where wholly innocent though, and I'd prefer if this was the case. I think that the blame should fall on the same shoulders for each of the story.

Quote:
It was hinted inside the story itself that Sakutaro was a mass produced toy.
At what point was he mass produced though? Is this another "Red truth is a lie" thing, because it was pretty clear that it was made by Rosa with that particular one. Why would Rosa make it herself if she could just buy it and give it to Maria? Even if it was mass produced after her death, why would the old man have them in his futon shop? In the pic itself it seems out of place and when all the other things in the room are either pillows or futons.
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Old 2011-11-23, 14:27   Link #25907
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There is a better example in Higurashi in the protagonist of Meakashi.

Note that ryuukishi isn't going as far as saying "she did the right thing", he's just saying the situation caused her to do terrible things, but "if you analyse the situation I think you can understand her reasons and at least sympathize with her".
He did it again in Tsumihoroboshi with another character, where you can see the infamous scene of "We need to help her hide the corpses! That's what friends are for!"

And he did it again in Ookamikakushi.


Quote:
Coercion or collusion? Take your pic really.
As I stated many times this is a scenario I find incredibly hard to believe to. I can understand one person going insane, but Hideyoshi and the other lot do not seem that insane or stupid to follow that plan. Realistically speaking it isn't worth a single penny, but I guess I can't exclude that since I already gave up to the idea Ryuukishi's story isn't completley realistic.
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Old 2011-11-23, 14:29   Link #25908
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The gun falling through the gaps in the well in EP4 and the EP2 dresser solution sounded very wrong when I thought that a Winchester was flying around. Someone said that the only clue to that solution was that there was a dresser in the room, but there's also the fact that Rosa stopped Battler from investigating further around it (hints as Rosa's involvement as well).
Actually, even though I mentioned it, it was in one of Ryukishi's more recent interview with Keiya.

Spoiler for Ryukishi Interview:


By the way, someone also suggested that the gun could be a service revolver or pistol from Kinzo's WW2 days. It's possible he kept the pistol somehow as a momento. I don't have enough research to say what was used; I just picked through a list of all possible WW2 pistols. But there is the Type 26 revolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_26_9_mm_Pistol) or... maybe... a Nambu Type A or Type 14 with a cartridge of 8 bullets. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambu_pistol)

I'm thinking maybe 8 because... one for each stake. That's right... "I got a bullet with a name on it... just for you." 8) I'm sorry.. I just suddenly imagined Shannon with a crazy face doing the Clint Eastwood line...


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The whole lot of Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Gohda and George are waiting for the next instructions. Yasu tells Genji to remain inside the servant room, in case Rosa or Battler tries to contanct them, one must be there and stall them. Then she tells George and Gohda to go to Natsuhi's room and prepare the scene for the next closed room scenario (they had to mess it up right?) in the meantime she'll help Nanjo and Kumasawa with their makeup so that their death will be realistic.
After she is alone with Nanjo and Kumasawa at the right place, she gives them the most realistical makeup ever. then she goes to Natsuhi's room where George and Gohda have made a mess out of Natsuhi's room as per plan. Yasu tells them "good job" and then "rewards" them for their efforts. At that point she makes a call to Genji she tells him "all is set, go to Rosa and bring her to where Kumasawa and Nanjo are". Genji being a robot obeys blindly to the order without checking Nanjo and Kumasawa first. In the meantime Yasu closes the door and then kills herself with the method described by Ryuukishi.

How about that?
I think it's good we're working out these things. Before that booklet comes out. (I thought someone mentioned it was a booklet about the specifics of how each murder was done.)

About Genji... I was thinking that maybe as a servant himself, he didn't really oppose his master(s) directly even if there's no doubt what they did were crimes. For example, he probably didn't challenge and obstruct Kinzo even though he raped his own daughter. Maybe he kinda advised him not to do so, but it was Kinzo's ultimate decision as the 'master'. Only when the opportunity to arose to save Beatrice-3 without Kinzo's knowledge did he take it.

So maybe he takes the same attitude with Yasu. Can't stop her directly, but maybe there were some minor things he did to oppose it in other ways.


Or rather, Yasu estimates that Genji would behave in this fashion or something. I'm still of the opinion that, although I think the siblings went trigger happy, I think Yasu didn't really do anything but turn on the bomb...
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Old 2011-11-23, 14:42   Link #25909
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And how do you explain Hideyoshi lying about Shannon's corpse?
Is this an argument for or against Murder Game Theory?
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's hard to explain that scenario without at least Genji knowing Yasu's real plan. You'd need to think that he still thought everything is fake after seeing the real corpses of Nanjo, Kumasawa, George, Hideyoshi and Yasu herself.
Oh, I agree. I'm just exploring various implications of various versions of Murder Game Theory.
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EDIT: Anyway, what about this?
That's really a very neat scenario, although it's still a bit of a tangent. Originally we were discussing the meaning of the scene where Genji knifed the golden butterfly; and speculation came up that it could mean Genji was actually innocent and that the scene indicated the point when he realized Yasu's murder game wasn't just a game.

EDIT:
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
About Genji... I was thinking that maybe as a servant himself, he didn't really oppose his master(s) directly even if there's no doubt what they did were crimes... ...So maybe he takes the same attitude with Yasu. Can't stop her directly, but maybe there were some minor things he did to oppose it in other ways.
This is probably the case. Still, with the golden butterfly scene what minor thing could it signify that he is doing to oppose Yasu?

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Or rather, Yasu estimates that Genji would behave in this fashion or something. I'm still of the opinion that, although I think the siblings went trigger happy, I think Yasu didn't really do anything but turn on the bomb...
Turn on the bomb to hide the crimes after they were committed, or to actually kill people?

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-11-23 at 14:59.
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Old 2011-11-23, 15:56   Link #25910
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Is this an argument for or against Murder Game Theory?
For.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
This is probably the case. Still, with the golden butterfly scene what minor thing could it signify that he is doing to oppose Yasu?
The chances that he is opposing Yasu are so slim that I'd rather try to find a different interpretation. Maybe it just means that he was immune to the illusion of the witch because he knew the truth.
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Old 2011-11-23, 16:58   Link #25911
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For.
That would suppose that Hideyoshi would know (or at least believe) that the other 5 were either fake corpses or playing dead. If they were fake corpses, then there's no good reason why there wouldn't be a Shannon fake too (it's a good reason to think that fake corpses were never utilized). If the 5 others were playing dead, then... well it explains why Shannon's corpse wasn't there. It's pretty difficult to suppose the second twilight of episode 1 was faked, though.

And man, I know it's been said before, but ShKanon is really inconvenient for the killer.

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The chances that he is opposing Yasu are so slim that I'd rather try to find a different interpretation. Maybe it just means that he was immune to the illusion of the witch because he knew the truth.
More than immune to it, he was part of it. That's why I find the scene so perplexing.
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Old 2011-11-23, 17:08   Link #25912
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Well, in Rondo (the PS3 version of Umineko) we are actually shown a whole bag full of Sakutarous at Kawabata's place. .
Why would he have so many of them? Doesn't make much sense at first sight.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
There are various theories about this, ranging from "Rosa just bought some random mass-produced toy and lied to Maria when she said she made it" to "Rosa made Sakutarou for Maria and later had her company mass-produce Sakutarou", as well as some others.
Both make sense. As long as there are no proof to deny any of them, the matter regarding this will just hang in the air.

On another note, is there any argument at all to claim that Yasu isn't a man?
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Old 2011-11-23, 19:10   Link #25913
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On another note, is there any argument at all to claim that Yasu isn't a man?
Aside from Yasu's stronger identities usually having a female gender, no, none that I know of.

Personally I tend to think that Yasu's sex is male, but there are many who disagree. I have two main reasons. One is the "Man From 19 Years Ago". The other is that I find the idea that "Yasu was born male, was sexually mutilated by the fall, and as a result was raised female" to be the most likely explanation for her mixed gender identity.

But there's really nothing conclusive either way.

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About Genji... I was thinking that maybe as a servant himself, he didn't really oppose his master(s) directly even if there's no doubt what they did were crimes. For example, he probably didn't challenge and obstruct Kinzo even though he raped his own daughter. Maybe he kinda advised him not to do so, but it was Kinzo's ultimate decision as the 'master'. Only when the opportunity to arose to save Beatrice-3 without Kinzo's knowledge did he take it.

So maybe he takes the same attitude with Yasu. Can't stop her directly, but maybe there were some minor things he did to oppose it in other ways.
Bringing this up again... it's an interesting idea when you consider the relationship between Beatrice and Ronove.
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Old 2011-11-23, 21:05   Link #25914
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But then wouldn't the bomb have detonated at 12:00 noon? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a normal grandfather clock distinguishes between AM and PM.
I dunno - IIRC, Battler spends upwards of an entire day on the island alone before it explodes at midnight, in Alliance.

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As I stated many times this is a scenario I find incredibly hard to believe to. I can understand one person going insane, but Hideyoshi and the other lot do not seem that insane or stupid to follow that plan. Realistically speaking it isn't worth a single penny, but I guess I can't exclude that since I already gave up to the idea Ryuukishi's story isn't completley realistic.
Hideyoshi would go along with playing dead corpses because money.
Hideyoshi would go along with real corpses because he thinks they'r fake, because Nanjo's a dick because money.

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This is probably the case. Still, with the golden butterfly scene what minor thing could it signify that he is doing to oppose Yasu?

Turn on the bomb to hide the crimes after they were committed, or to actually kill people?
I dunno - complicit as he is, Genji is never portrayed as being a murderer. Well, I say that because he was absolved of being a killer in Legend, where he had craptons of opportunity.

I think the knife throw was, as others have theorized, to signify that he knew what was really going on, or that, and he kind of disagreed / resented with Yasu's course.

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And man, I know it's been said before, but ShKanon is really inconvenient for the killer.
Isn't it? And it doesn't even SOLVE any of the mysteries, which is kind of a kicker.

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But there's really nothing conclusive either way.
Indeed - which is why Lion's overwhelmingly feminine voice was kind of a surprise.



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Bringing this up again... it's an interesting idea when you consider the relationship between Beatrice and Ronove.
I still say Genji was homolust for Kinzo, has absurd amounts of sympathy for awkwardly gendered incest baby that's the child of the man he loves ?!
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Old 2011-11-23, 21:32   Link #25915
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Turn on the bomb to hide the crimes after they were committed, or to actually kill people?
This is a tough one. I would say more the latter; she had her own criminal intent as well? I haven't had too many leads to say one way or the other for this part as of yet.

The main idea I'm thinking is, I know how people would fantasize about challenging their greatest hang-up (i.e. Battler) in one big show down, or one big prank. Or go out with the perfect plan. But I can see that when it comes to real execution, she, or anyone else really would hesitate. A series of successive murders is difficult, especially if she has to do it by hand. But flip the switch and just let the end come? If she was severely depressed and convinced she'd just evaporate from the energy... then, that's easy.

And maybe more appealing than shooting yourself in the head too.


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Why would he have so many of them [Sakutaros in a bag]? Doesn't make much sense at first sight.
I think that might have been an interpretation from the anime at first. Or it still could be Ryukishi's thinking as he checks everything. The main idea is that there was another Sakutarou, as the magic scene where Ange brings him back alive says. I think the ultimate purpose of that part was to show us how magic worked, more than really to bring him back.

But, having so many must really mean he was mass produced at one point or another. That puts doubt on what we thought, that there was only one in the whole world. The original Sakutarou could've been unique in that it was the only hand made version, still.
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Old 2011-11-23, 22:21   Link #25916
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This is a tough one. I would say more the latter; she had her own criminal intent as well? I haven't had too many leads to say one way or the other for this part as of yet.

The main idea I'm thinking is, I know how people would fantasize about challenging their greatest hang-up (i.e. Battler) in one big show down, or one big prank. Or go out with the perfect plan. But I can see that when it comes to real execution, she, or anyone else really would hesitate. A series of successive murders is difficult, especially if she has to do it by hand. But flip the switch and just let the end come? If she was severely depressed and convinced she'd just evaporate from the energy... then, that's easy.

And maybe more appealing than shooting yourself in the head too.
I do agree that the bomb switch is the most likely way that Yasu could actually be a murderer.

But if Yasu did flip the switch then somehow Eva found out, and I'm not sure how that would happen without Yasu telling her. Plus there had to be some kind of individual killings going on, because Eva would not leave George and Hideyoshi behind unless she knew they were dead.

Also, the bomb had an off switch. Since Eva knew about the bomb (and presumably the off switch), then you would think it would be easier for her to turn it off rather than flee all the way across the island.

Basically, I'm saying that the most sensible explanation for the explosion would be that it was for the purpose of covering the incident up. Maybe some people were killed by it, but at least George and Hideyoshi must have been already dead.
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Old 2011-11-23, 22:52   Link #25917
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That would suppose that Hideyoshi would know (or at least believe) that the other 5 were either fake corpses or playing dead. If they were fake corpses, then there's no good reason why there wouldn't be a Shannon fake too (it's a good reason to think that fake corpses were never utilized). If the 5 others were playing dead, then... well it explains why Shannon's corpse wasn't there. It's pretty difficult to suppose the second twilight of episode 1 was faked, though.

And man, I know it's been said before, but ShKanon is really inconvenient for the killer.
You are missing a possibility that it is something I consider strictly tied to the fake murder scenario.

If you can accept that there's a fake murder scenario it is almost inevitable to accept that they know who Yasu is, else they'd hardly follow her plan. At that point would there be any reason not to tell them about Kanon? He's part of the plan, anyone knowing about the plan would know about Kanon (and therefore shkanon) too.
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Old 2011-11-23, 23:09   Link #25918
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I dunno - IIRC, Battler spends upwards of an entire day on the island alone before it explodes at midnight, in Alliance.
Yes, a corollary would be that "somebody besides Battler was still alive on the 5th", and that's probably unsupportable given Battler's investigation.

On the other hand... It's always bothered me how all of the clues for the existence of the bomb come from outside the game boards. Maybe there is no bomb in the fictions, and we're basically being confused by future knowledge of the incident being reflected back onto them in fantasy scenes?
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Old 2011-11-23, 23:30   Link #25919
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If you can accept that there's a fake murder scenario it is almost inevitable to accept that they know who Yasu is, else they'd hardly follow her plan. At that point would there be any reason not to tell them about Kanon? He's part of the plan, anyone knowing about the plan would know about Kanon (and therefore shkanon) too.
If we are talking about a fake murder scenario in EP1 then I would say that Hideyoshi is probably in on ShKanon. When did I say or imply otherwise?
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Old 2011-11-24, 01:30   Link #25920
Jan-Poo
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Uhm... I guess I misunderstood you. But then I don't understand where you thik there is a problem.
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