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Old 2011-11-18, 13:19   Link #141
Amirali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Gilgamesh easily killed FSN Berserker with GoB.

Archer died to FSN Berserker in Fate route.
There is a route in Heaven's Feel where shirou takes out Berserker with a crafted copy of Hercules own magic technique, nine lives works! I never understood why Archer couldn't have pulled that one out.

Last edited by Amirali; 2011-11-28 at 11:39. Reason: corrected according to klashikari's post
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Old 2011-11-18, 13:24   Link #142
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Nine Lives Works is not Herakles' bow. It is merely a skill that was used to annihilate the regenerating hydra. It can actually be used by any weapon Herakles could wield, and Shirou used it with a replica of the stone sword, nothing close to a bow.
It is very likely that EMIYA's archer style doesn't bode too well with Herakles' skill, due to the fact EMIYA focus on short lived ammo, so attacking 8 points at the same time with a single NP wouldn't be really possible for him.
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Old 2011-11-18, 17:14   Link #143
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or another possible explanation is that berserker is not blind and deaf and simply never gave him a chance to pull it off...
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Old 2011-11-19, 08:24   Link #144
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EMIYA just never thought about it. It's a large piece of rock. Just like he would never try Rider's nails, he'd never think of looking into Herc's stone club.
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Old 2011-11-21, 19:39   Link #145
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That was an epic scene. Friggin' tracing the stone sword. Heaven's Feel really pulled out all the stops. If only DEEN didn't get the rights and a better studio adapted the anime properly...
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Old 2011-11-22, 10:41   Link #146
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Shirou used Archer's arm. There's no way Emiya couldn't do it. It doesn't suit his style, maybe, but he could still do it.
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Old 2011-11-22, 17:48   Link #147
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Archer is a Counter Guardian, with a full recollection of the missions that he undertook, and of the amount of people that he killed while acting out his responsibility. I've always been under the idea that each version of Archer, depicted in each route, possessed a different level of experience and strength, due to their past experiences throughout the various timelines, to the point where they might even be the same Archer at different periods. That would definitely explain the implied strength discrepancy between Fate Route Archer and Heaven's Feel Archer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
EMIYA just never thought about it. It's a large piece of rock. Just like he would never try Rider's nails, he'd never think of looking into Herc's stone club.
Archer seems too intelligent (lol Shirou) to underestimate a noble phantasm simply based upon how flashy it is. He was genre savvy enough to smash Zouken's head as soon as he was given the chance, after all.

Last edited by LunarMoon; 2011-11-22 at 17:58.
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Old 2011-11-23, 01:06   Link #148
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Really?

Nasu would be the first person to say "Nah, Gilgamesh is actually really really really broken. You said he got owned by a human/lesser Servants in my writings? That's just my plot device called 'King of Arrogance and Carelessness In Front of Mongrels' at play."

Well I'd say that arrogance is part of what makes Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh. He's the only person I know who can resist the taint of the black grail because he's so damn full of himself.

In fact, I wonder why he doesn't have an NP associated with his ego.

He's like Kuroro from HxH or Wally from Ippo.

Kuroro is always greedy and wanting to steal things, even if it makes disadvantage against strong opponents. That's why his powers are associated with stealing things.

Wally is always jumping around like a hyperactive monkey whether he needs it or not, and that's why he's so fast.

Their character flaws are part of what they are. To not act that way would be to deny themselves.
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Old 2011-11-23, 05:45   Link #149
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Well I'd say that arrogance is part of what makes Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh. He's the only person I know who can resist the taint of the black grail because he's so damn full of himself.

In fact, I wonder why he doesn't have an NP associated with his ego.

He's like Kuroro from HxH or Wally from Ippo.

Kuroro is always greedy and wanting to steal things, even if it makes disadvantage against strong opponents. That's why his powers are associated with stealing things.

Wally is always jumping around like a hyperactive monkey whether he needs it or not, and that's why he's so fast.

Their character flaws are part of what they are. To not act that way would be to deny themselves.
Exactly. His inflated ego and extreme arrogance are a core part of his character, so it's highly unlikely that they were written in afterwards as a mere means of allowing a powerful character to be defeated in battle. Being completely full of himself is much more likely to have been a part of his character concept all along and thus him being overconfident and underestimating his opponents in battle is simply accurately following up on his characterisation.

Now some might say said character flaws are exaggerated in order to compensate for his near invincibility in battle, but let's not forget that Gilgamesh, like the other heroic spirits, is a legend. His flaws are supposed to be larger-than-life.
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Old 2011-11-23, 09:03   Link #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Archer is a Counter Guardian, with a full recollection of the missions that he undertook, and of the amount of people that he killed while acting out his responsibility. I've always been under the idea that each version of Archer, depicted in each route, possessed a different level of experience and strength, due to their past experiences throughout the various timelines, to the point where they might even be the same Archer at different periods. That would definitely explain the implied strength discrepancy between Fate Route Archer and Heaven's Feel Archer.


Archer seems too intelligent (lol Shirou) to underestimate a noble phantasm simply based upon how flashy it is. He was genre savvy enough to smash Zouken's head as soon as he was given the chance, after all.
Truth of the matter is, he did. There is no evidence to say that each EMIYA from each route is different, and their goals are very much the same, it is just the situation that changes.

Emiya Shirou's Reality Marble lets him see the inherent properties of weapons/artifacts at a glance, which is why he could identify all the weapons in GoB and their properties as he saw them, like scanning a bar code(how he always knows about Rule Breaker, for example).

What Shirou did in HF is different, he actually had to take time and scan the weapon's history (like he does in one Ending, Sparks Liner High) to see what it contained and what skills it had associated with it.

It's not that EMIYA couldn't do it, it is just it never came to his mind because Herc's club is like Rider's nails, not really a NP, just a weapon they use. To him, there were numerous other things that would be of better use than clubbing him with his own piece of rock.
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Old 2011-11-23, 09:51   Link #151
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Shirou doesn't need UBW to comprehend a weapon. Actually, due to its Sword origin, he can determine the material and the spec of a weapon after some observation (provided his image of the weapon is perfect). For example, he didn't need UBW to trace Caliburn or Avalon to begin with (same goes with the rock sword along with Nive Live Works). I'm pretty sure he tried to "read" Ea in fate route, but was unable to, due to Ea's origins.
That being said, the process if much faster if he is indeed in UBW, considering he has everything at his disposal, be it material, prana and manufacture process.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-11-23 at 11:24.
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Old 2011-11-23, 12:08   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Shirou doesn't need UBW to comprehend a weapon. Actually, due to its Sword origin, he can determine the material and the spec of a weapon after some observation (provided his image of the weapon is perfect). For example, he didn't need UBW to trace Caliburn or Avalon to begin with (same goes with the rock sword along with Nive Live Works). I'm pretty sure he tried to "read" Ea in fate route, but was unable to, due to Ea's origins.
That being said, the process if much faster if he is indeed in UBW, considering he has everything at his disposal, be it material, prana and manufacture process.
UBW makes the process faster. It's part of the reason why Archer's tracing is better: he pulls the image from UBW. Shirou didn't know that at first, which is why he had has weapons broken more easily. He was initially just eyeballing it and doing guesswork.
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Old 2011-11-23, 14:27   Link #153
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Actually UBW is all of Shirou's magic. UBW isn't just the expanded reality marble but is always present inside him as the source of all his sword abilities.

You could say that his Sword origin is why he has UBW which gives him all his abilities.


Well, he could learn some magecraft eventually too with Rin training him but for now it's all UBW.
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Old 2011-11-25, 21:39   Link #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
UBW makes the process faster. It's part of the reason why Archer's tracing is better: he pulls the image from UBW. Shirou didn't know that at first, which is why he had has weapons broken more easily. He was initially just eyeballing it and doing guesswork.
That's what i said, but heh.
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Actually UBW is all of Shirou's magic. UBW isn't just the expanded reality marble but is always present inside him as the source of all his sword abilities.

You could say that his Sword origin is why he has UBW which gives him all his abilities.
Projection is one thing, UBW is another. Unless I missed some weird line in the Vn or material book, I don't think Nasu ever defined Shirou's projection shenanigans as UBW.
That said, UBW was most likely defined by the initial projection magic and the sword origin, although that name was only referring the reality marble so far.
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Old 2011-11-26, 02:35   Link #155
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Projection is one thing, UBW is another. Unless I missed some weird line in the Vn or material book, I don't think Nasu ever defined Shirou's projection shenanigans as UBW.

That said, UBW was most likely defined by the initial projection magic and the sword origin, although that name was only referring the reality marble so far.
This is pretty much it. Shirou's projection isn't normal projection and actually stems from his reality marble (unexpanded). Even reinforcement is an aspect of that particular magic for Shirou which is why he's decent at it.
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Old 2011-11-26, 12:41   Link #156
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If I recall it simply said that Shirou will record swords into his Reality Marble (UBW) which he can bring out through projection.
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Old 2011-11-26, 12:47   Link #157
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Not to say he can't do normal projection or reinforcement either. If I recall, his shed is full of random crap he projected that has no relation in any way to what would be in UBW. Unless he has random toasters and stuff in there.
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Old 2011-11-26, 13:47   Link #158
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Not to say he can't do normal projection or reinforcement either. If I recall, his shed is full of random crap he projected that has no relation in any way to what would be in UBW. Unless he has random toasters and stuff in there.
Those kettles logically have to be from UBW as well since they're not regular projections by the virtue that they didn't dissipate over time.

If you read the game text, there's a lot about how Shirou's projections only break when he "loses the image of it". That is, when the image (of the perfect NP) in his mind diverges from reality and thus the reality (projected item) fades.

The example given was Noble Phantasm with the property "doesn't break". If this projection breaks, then in Shirou's mind, clearly he didn't project it properly, thus it has diverged from his image and then it fades. Note that "breaking" and "fading" are not used synonymously here.



Rin talked about regular projection as well and she mentions in passing that they don't last long. Therefore, those kettles, even though they're just hollow shells, can't be regular projections. When Rin saw them, she was shocked since they're definitely not regular projections.

Keep in mind that while Shirou has affinity with swords, he still is able to project some other things (that aren't too complex).
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Old 2011-11-27, 06:23   Link #159
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Those kettles logically have to be from UBW as well since they're not regular projections by the virtue that they didn't dissipate over time.

If you read the game text, there's a lot about how Shirou's projections only break when he "loses the image of it". That is, when the image (of the perfect NP) in his mind diverges from reality and thus the reality (projected item) fades.

The example given was Noble Phantasm with the property "doesn't break". If this projection breaks, then in Shirou's mind, clearly he didn't project it properly, thus it has diverged from his image and then it fades. Note that "breaking" and "fading" are not used synonymously here.



Rin talked about regular projection as well and she mentions in passing that they don't last long. Therefore, those kettles, even though they're just hollow shells, can't be regular projections. When Rin saw them, she was shocked since they're definitely not regular projections.

Keep in mind that while Shirou has affinity with swords, he still is able to project some other things (that aren't too complex).
...what about Rho Aias? Not a sword, but a bronze shield. Surely for that to actually work and defend against Gilga's assault would require some complexity.
But then again, it does cost 3x the mana usually required for a sword-based noble phantasm...
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Old 2011-11-27, 16:16   Link #160
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...what about Rho Aias? Not a sword, but a bronze shield. Surely for that to actually work and defend against Gilga's assault would require some complexity.
But then again, it does cost 3x the mana usually required for a sword-based noble phantasm...
Well, it's not like swords aren't complex constructions either. They're layered and have discrete internal components. So that level of complexity (such as a seven layer shield that Rho Aias is) is within UBW's capabilities.

However, what I meant was mechanically complex machinary such as a gun or a tank =)
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