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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 8 Rating
Perfect 10 49 38.28%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 41 32.03%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 29 22.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 4.69%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.78%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.56%
Voters: 128. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-22, 13:39   Link #181
Vicious108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king12354 View Post
So Iri knows that Maiya likes Kiritsugu? And she's okay with it?

That works.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that she is downright "okay" with it, but their cooperation over a mutual goal in this episode definitely helped relieve some of the anxiety and awkwardness between them. Iri was rather hesitant to mention Maiya as an ally of the Emiya team in the previous episode, but I would assume that from now on she will have less trouble doing so. You don't fight and marginally survive together against an unstoppable beast like Kotomine without creating some sort of bond.
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Old 2011-11-22, 15:23   Link #182
Xagzan
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Originally Posted by king12354 View Post
So Iri knows that Maiya likes Kiritsugu? And she's okay with it?

That works.
Hah, that's what I was asking about before, too. The scene right after the OP made it seem like Iri suspected something, and was kind of teasing or toying with Maiya about it.

Boy, Shiro may not be Kiritsugu's biological son, but he sure did inherit the same harem gene
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Old 2011-11-22, 17:26   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
Spoiler for Madoka, for comparision:
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-11-22, 20:12   Link #184
giorno
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Except the relationship between maiya and kiritsugu is not romantic, and maiya's feelings for kiritsugu are more devotion than love

Also, the only reason why Iri was hesitant about Maiya is because Maiya knows the side of Kiritsugu that Irisviel doesn't know(the magus killer), and she was afraid that getting to know it would change her opinion of her husband. And mayia is not exactly the most talkative woman there is, either...

and for the last time: there is absolutely nothing going on between Kiritsugu and Maiya
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Old 2011-11-22, 20:37   Link #185
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Originally Posted by giorno View Post
Except the relationship between maiya and kiritsugu is not romantic, and maiya's feelings for kiritsugu are more devotion than love

Also, the only reason why Iri was hesitant about Maiya is because Maiya knows the side of Kiritsugu that Irisviel doesn't know(the magus killer), and she was afraid that getting to know it would change her opinion of her husband. And mayia is not exactly the most talkative woman there is, either...

and for the last time: there is absolutely nothing going on between Kiritsugu and Maiya
Finally someone else saying the same thing as I've been saying. I thought I was alone in thinking this.

The whole kiss scene itself didn't even feel like it had any romantic weight to it all, heck Kiritsugu certainly didn't even react much to it.

I said this before, but to me it came off as nothing more than Maiya trying to get Kiritsugu to focus on whats important; take his mind off his family. And as you stated she does seem to hold some devote feelings for Kiritsugu. SO yeah, I don't believe there is any romantic thing going on with Kiritsugu and Maiya.
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Old 2011-11-22, 20:45   Link #186
Rethice
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Firstly, I humbly accept being wrong about the second bullet, I completely missed the point there.

The rest however, I still feel strongly about, and it seems people have twisted my words into an argument I never made.

Quote:
Lancer was hesitating because he knew that his Master was in danger, and had to decide between finishing Caster off or hurry back to defend his master
A few people said something along these lines, and quite frankly it doesn't make any sense.

He had the time to make his first thrust, and then pose while twirling his spear between his fingers and say, I quote, "How did you like that? Things wouldn't have been much different if saber regained the use of her left arm.", then flank him pointlessly with Saber. He had more than enough time to simply finish the job while Caster's defenses were down immediately after his first attack. Not to mention, that quote in itself is a sickening addition to the incredibly forced cliche' relationship Lancer and Saber have. How much are they going to continue to lick each others boots? Seriously. This is something I've seen in both Bleach and Naruto before (Oops), and I say let the shonens keep their shonen stereotypes.

Quote:
On the other hand, if you're complaining about the specific methods the author is using to get to his goal, that's valid. There might be arguments to be made that Caster's escape (or more generally the most recent set of battles) could have been better executed.
Yes, that is what I meant.

Quote:
So, basically, conflict and battles can't be enjoyable, relevant or worthwhile unless there are deaths? Might as well drop the show now if that's the mindset you're going to be watching it with.
Woah, Nelly, don't put words in my mouth.

It's the cliche' tropes and techniques I am frustrated at - it's something I would expect from a much less exalted author.
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Old 2011-11-22, 20:48   Link #187
Vicious108
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Nobody in this topic necessarily claimed Kiritsugu and Maiya have romantic feelings for each other.

The term "loving" doesn't have to refer to an emotion that is romantic in nature and "liking" (the term utilised in this topic) much less so.

And you usually wouldn't devote and be willing to sacrifice your life for someone you don't at least like.

Last edited by Vicious108; 2011-11-22 at 21:04.
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Old 2011-11-22, 20:48   Link #188
king12354
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Finally someone else saying the same thing as I've been saying. I thought I was alone in thinking this.

The whole kiss scene itself didn't even feel like it had any romantic weight to it all, heck Kiritsugu certainly didn't even react much to it.

I said this before, but to me it came off as nothing more than Maiya trying to get Kiritsugu to focus on whats important; take his mind off his family. And as you stated she does seem to hold some devote feelings for Kiritsugu. SO yeah, I don't believe there is any romantic thing going on with Kiritsugu and Maiya.
Kiritsugu doesn't show much emotion so it isn't really a clue as to what he is feeling.

Also, until they show why Maiya works for Emiya, I'll assume it's because she likes him and it isn't devotion.
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Old 2011-11-22, 21:35   Link #189
Kokukirin
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Originally Posted by king12354 View Post
Kiritsugu doesn't show much emotion so it isn't really a clue as to what he is feeling.

Also, until they show why Maiya works for Emiya, I'll assume it's because she likes him and it isn't devotion.
Kiritsugu showed his more emotional side in front of Iris, talking about running away from the war and Einzberns. He didn't show any of it in front of Maiya.
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Old 2011-11-22, 21:46   Link #190
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*shrug* I have no previous knowledge about the series or the characters, if that would make a difference. So, call me crazy, but when I see someone kiss somebody, I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to assume they have feelings for that person. Even if the other person doesn't share those feelings.
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Old 2011-11-22, 22:30   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
On the other hand, killing someone off in the last episode of Fate/Zero would have served no thematic purpose.
Not everything in a story needs to serve a thematic purpose, at least not directly.

Sometimes certain events should happen simply to aid the immersion value to the story, to make it easier for readers or viewers to "buy into".

I'm not talking about realism, per se, but rather events unfolding in a way that feels authentic, coherent, and natural. In other words, the opposite of cheap, contrived, copping out.

If you have a dozen or more super-powered combatants engaging in a contest of sorts where the goal is to kill all of your opponents, and everybody in that competition accepts those rules (i.e. there's nobody with a strict "no killing" moral belief that's trying to undermine the contest from within) then logically it shouldn't take that long for somebody in the contest to die.

On the whole, I think that Fate/Zero is a more well-written and enjoyable watch than Mirai Nikki, but in this one specific area (how the plot progresses the "survival game"), I honestly think that Mirai Nikki is doing a better job of things thus far. In Mirai Nikki, competitors get eliminated at a rate that I find easier to buy into than what we've seen in Fate/Zero's Holy Grail war thus far.

So I see where Rethice is coming from. I'm not quite as critical on this as he is, but I do hope that the ratio between death-defying survivals and actual deaths starts to become more balanced soon.


Quote:
IMO, the goals of Fate/Zero are to be a character study and to see everyone suffer as much as possible. We'll see that there are far worse things that can happen to adults than unexpected deaths. So while Fate/Zero might have a different method of trolling than Madoka, if anything the author is more ruthless here.
Well, I don't think that Fate/Zero is simply meant to appeal to fans of horror and tragedy. It's largely meant to appeal to fans of the Fate/Stay Night anime, the Fate/Stay Night VN, the Fate/Zero LN, and Type Moon/Nasuverse fans in general.

Keep in mind that this isn't just Gen Urobuchi's baby. He didn't create the Nasuverse. He didn't create most of the important characters in this, or most (all?) of the lore in this. His writing quality does add a lot to the show, no doubt, but it's not like this is a true Gen original (like Madoka Magica) where he personally designed the fictional universe that everything takes place in, and created all the major characters.

His involvement does bring in another group of fans - Gen fans - but Fate/Zero is first and foremost for long-time fans of the Fate/Series franchise. There's plenty of people who would be watching this show if it was wrote by somebody else entirely.

So I don't think Fate/Zero is simply aimed at Gen fans (and hence I don't think it's only goals are horror and tragedy, as that's certainly not what I took away from Fate/Stay Night).


Personally, I'm fine with Fate/Zero being dark, but that's not the main reason I'm watching the show. I'm hoping for an "epic story" (and this is where immersion value is important to me), I am fond of some of the characters (Saber is important here), and I do look to this anime for great action scenes (and here, constant death-defying can become tiresome after awhile).
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Old 2011-11-22, 22:58   Link #192
PhoenixFlare
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Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
A few people said something along these lines, and quite frankly it doesn't make any sense.

He had the time to make his first thrust, and then pose while twirling his spear between his fingers and say, I quote, "How did you like that? Things wouldn't have been much different if saber regained the use of her left arm.", then flank him pointlessly with Saber. He had more than enough time to simply finish the job while Caster's defenses were down immediately after his first attack.
Possibly untrue, though. While Caster's Noble Phantasm was nullified for a brief moment, that doesn't mean that Caster himself has no other means of defense. True, Lancer could have attacked Caster immediately after the first strike, but Caster could have as well evaded (teleportation, maybe?) and countered with his own attack independent of Prelati's Spellbook (not to mention that Prelati's Spellbook could itself activate spells independent of Caster's command). We've never seen Caster with his full power before, so Lancer would probably want to err on the safer side and opt for a flanking move with Saber to ensure their victory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethice View Post
It's the cliche' tropes and techniques I am frustrated at - it's something I would expect from a much less exalted author.
If Fate/Zero had been animated way before you come to realize the existence of those tropes, would you have been less critical of it? It's a matter of personal experience (i.e., your exposure to it compared to mine) and view. Regardless, everyone is not impervious to using cliches and tropes, including Urobuchi, if they help to maintain the plot.
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Old 2011-11-23, 06:18   Link #193
giorno
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So, call me crazy, but when I see someone kiss somebody, I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to assume they have feelings for that person.
No, i won't call you crazy, I'm just explaining to you that that kiss had absolutely nothing to do with Maiya's feelings, regardless of whether Maiya has feelings for Kiritsugu or not. It was a quick and simple way to get Kiritsugu to stop thinking about his family and get back to being the magus killer, since he's come back to war
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Old 2011-11-23, 07:04   Link #194
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it's painfully obvious to me how Servant scenes suffer immensely from the lack of Rider/Gil/Berserker in them (preferably Gil vs Berserker)


humans in 08 >>>>>>>>>>>> Servants



dat bullet, dat Kirei ! wow
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Old 2011-11-23, 10:19   Link #195
Velsy
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Well one question I have to ask....

Now I was all exicted when Saber opened up a path, and Lancer went on the charge (Knights are great on the charge, especially Lancers)

But why did he hit the book? rather than drive his spear through his heart ? Its not like Caster use the book to deflect the attack. As a heroic class, Lancer should have done better. Yes hitting the book with a mana canceling is favourable advantage, but not when you have a better option in killing your oponet outright.

Did they want to ware him down before going for the kill?
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Old 2011-11-23, 11:35   Link #196
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Originally Posted by Velsy View Post
Well one question I have to ask....

Now I was all exicted when Saber opened up a path, and Lancer went on the charge (Knights are great on the charge, especially Lancers)

But why did he hit the book? rather than drive his spear through his heart ? Its not like Caster use the book to deflect the attack. As a heroic class, Lancer should have done better. Yes hitting the book with a mana canceling is favourable advantage, but not when you have a better option in killing your oponet outright.

Did they want to ware him down before going for the kill?
Because the plan was to stab Caster book to destroy the lovecraftian demons, so then Lancer and Saber can obliterate Caster very easily. If they had tried to kill Caster directly a small failure would be fatal for them, so that was the best course of action.

But then shit happens, Kayneth is screwed and Lancer can't pursue Caster in spirit form and finish him off.
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Old 2011-11-23, 14:26   Link #197
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Actually the complaints are right.

The way it happened in the book was different and made a lot more sense:

When Saber used Strike air to blast a corridor to carry Lancer towards Caster, the wall of monsters was thick enough that Lancer BARELY reached Caster and had to settle for slicing the book instead of just taking Caster's head.

Caster jumps backwards after this which reset the distance. Lancer makes the quip as Caster is still completely at his and Saber's mercy. This is the moment Kiritsugu shoots Kayneth and Lancer doesn't finish Caster.


I really didn't like how the anime had Lancer go past Caster without cutting his head off.

Quote:
The demonic monsters that turned around due to their master's crisis stretched their tentacles together towards Lancer's back. But Lancer didn't turn back. He brandished the short spear in his left hand behind him like a windmill to cut down the pursuing attacks, while he turned half his body and approached Caster with the long spear in his right hand extended.

He was just short of the killing blow. The long spear's strike only resulted in the tip cutting slightly into the surface, and didn't make a serious tear.

But the Noble Phantasm in the enchanting spearman's hand was such a weapon that would decide the victor on the battlefield even with such a slight touch. "Gouge, Ge Dearg!"

His growl was followed by a crimson stab. The tip of the spear did not touch Caster’s fragile body – but the cover of the grimoire in his hand.
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Old 2011-11-23, 17:50   Link #198
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I think Nasu is a closet fanboy of Nakata anyway, since... he is basically defined as the eternal "big bad boss" in every Type Moon stuff (Nrvnqsr Chaos, Araya Souren, Kotomine). I would be very surprised if there is any work of them with a male arch enemy not voiced by Nakata
Spoiler for Fate/Extra:
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Old 2011-11-23, 19:12   Link #199
jeroz
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Actually the complaints are right.

The way it happened in the book was different and made a lot more sense:

When Saber used Strike air to blast a corridor to carry Lancer towards Caster, the wall of monsters was thick enough that Lancer BARELY reached Caster and had to settle for slicing the book instead of just taking Caster's head.

Caster jumps backwards after this which reset the distance. Lancer makes the quip as Caster is still completely at his and Saber's mercy. This is the moment Kiritsugu shoots Kayneth and Lancer doesn't finish Caster.


I really didn't like how the anime had Lancer go past Caster without cutting his head off.
so in order to make that scene look cool, the studio accidentally makes it look stupid.
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Old 2011-11-23, 19:26   Link #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Actually the complaints are right.

The way it happened in the book was different and made a lot more sense:

When Saber used Strike air to blast a corridor to carry Lancer towards Caster, the wall of monsters was thick enough that Lancer BARELY reached Caster and had to settle for slicing the book instead of just taking Caster's head.

Caster jumps backwards after this which reset the distance. Lancer makes the quip as Caster is still completely at his and Saber's mercy. This is the moment Kiritsugu shoots Kayneth and Lancer doesn't finish Caster.


I really didn't like how the anime had Lancer go past Caster without cutting his head off.
Thanks for posting that. It's good to know the mistake was a flaw in the adaption, and not the original writing.
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