AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Penguin Drum

Notices

View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 20 Rating
Perfect 10 30 46.15%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 24 36.92%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 9.23%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 3.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 3.08%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-11-25, 12:23   Link #41
Jao
panchi~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Age: 24
Question: In episode 12 when Kenzan hears news of his wife giving birth he distinctly says 'So, it's a boy.' Was this fansubbing liberalness or meant to be taken literally? I was always confused about it until last episode where Masako began to hint at being Kanba's sister.

As for that... she called him 'onii-sama', but doesn't that just fit with her insanely polite speech pattern in addresing an older friend?
__________________
In my world far removed from the actual
Safe in my small amorality capsule
I cruise far aloof of the other world's flaws
Hiding behind tinted glasses and doors.
Jao is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 15:10   Link #42
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 33
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by YayPepsi View Post
Spoiler:
How can someone who struggles to save innocent children, while taking all the pain and suffering to himself, in order to protect his loved ones, be the bad guy... eludes me
Malkuth is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 15:12   Link #43
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
How can someone who struggles to save innocent children, while taking all the pain and suffering to himself, in order to protect his loved ones, be the bad guy... eludes me
Perhaps because he is working with a misguided terrorist organization.

That being said I doubt Kanba will end as a villain, I am sure even if Kanba gets on the wrong path he will be steered onto the right one before the end of the story.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 15:26   Link #44
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 33
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Terrorist or revolutionary? Probably the first by post-modern popularized re-definitions, which does not change the fact that it is an organization that uses (granted) morally questionable methods to achieve its pure and innocent goals... or to put it in the fictional universe's facts, what's worse, kill once some dozens once who by inaction lead hundreds of innocents to their unjust demise or selfishly ignore a crime being committed and let it go on forgetting about it and continuing living a life in comfort build on others' misery? Not that I agree with the methodology, but certainly can not blame them for their course of action (it is justified), unlike the so-called victims, because I do not consider blissful ignorance as an excuse.
Malkuth is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 15:44   Link #45
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
There is nothing justifiable about killing innocent people. Reasons and actions are two very different things.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 16:14   Link #46
wandering-dreamer
reads too much
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: you know that's a great question.....
There were a lot of heartbreaking little moments in this episode but when I realized that Himari nicknamed the kitten the same thing she calls her penguin, that was depressing. I'm really curious to hear Kanba's side of the story for these events now, why would Shouma drag him into his family as well and does Kanba even remember it?
wandering-dreamer is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 16:33   Link #47
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Not that I agree with the methodology, but certainly can not blame them for their course of action (it is justified), unlike the so-called victims, because I do not consider blissful ignorance as an excuse.
But society as a whole ignores the suffering of those who don't "fit". If you're going to use violence to fight this ignorance, you'd have to kill almost all the population of the country / planet. It's ludicrous.

But all that is irrelevant anyway, because responding to cruelty with cruelty will never solve anything. It's a misguided exercise to begin with.

I don't think Ikuhara is trying to "justify" this. Much like Murakami himself, I think Ikuhara just wants the audience to realize the source of the problem is society itself, and not to blind themselves to this fact by blaming others (ie the terrorist).

There's definitely a strong message that there's no point in blaming others for your pain. You gotta look inside yourself first. If you want to change the world, you gotta begin with yourself. Like Ringo said (and Utena exemplifies), "accept your fate and become stronger". Accepting your fate doesn't mean no to fight for what you want. Rather it means to face reality head on, instead of running away by putting the blame on someone else.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is online now  
Old 2011-11-25, 16:34   Link #48
YayPepsi
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
why would Shouma drag him into his family as well and does Kanba even remember it?
Shouma might not have done it. I think that Himari will be the one to pull him into the family, which might explain why he loves her so much and why Masako blames her for taking him away. It could have been Kenzan and Chiemi who pulled him into their family too.
__________________
YayPepsi is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 16:48   Link #49
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Yes, Shoma has serious guilt issues but I believe he is relatively sane.
I don't know. Shota Shouma was definitely on the right track, but the current one seems almost as misguided as the terrorists. The latter blame and hate society for all their problems, and Shouma now is beginning to blame and hate his parents in the same way.

Yeah, Shouma probably wouldn't kill anyone, but he won't be able to save anyone either unless he lets go of this hate.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is online now  
Old 2011-11-25, 16:59   Link #50
vaden
0118 999 881 999 119 7253
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: (n.) A particular place or position.
This might just be my own antipathy for the direction the show has taken, but I feel like Mawaru Penguindrum's potential for social commentary really got mangled inside the character drama. I can appreciate the comparisons to Murakami (one of my favorite authors), and the show's surreal style continues to be top-notch, but the characters lost me somewhere between the artificial families and convoluted motivations. I'm especially disappointed by this because I came into Penguindrum hoping for a solid exploration of the sarin attacks, which Murakami did a very good job of in his late-'90s work.

That said, episode 20 was a definite improvement over the last couple. I liked how down-to-earth the Shoma/Himari story was, compared to what was starting to look like "broken character of the week" in the previous few episodes. I don't think the brutality of the Child Broiler imagery really hit me until the glass shards of shredded children's lives cut Shoma. It's a nice symbol for his awakening to their circumstances — he's literally being hit in the face with the consequences.
vaden is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 17:12   Link #51
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
As with so many heavily allegorical works (such as Night on the Galactic Railroad) I think MPD can be interpreted on a number of different levels, and none of them are necessarily exclusive. This last arc is full of both Christian and Buddhist allusions, for example, and I think the social commentary is quite intentional.

In my view the last couple of episodes and the child broiler have a very Buddhist feel to them. I think Ikuhara is saying that our entire society is diminished by our desire to sweep those we see as undesirable under the rug - out of sight, out of mind. The plight of the helpless in society is a measure of the society as a whole, and he's saying that modern Japan (and pretty much everyone else) fails. If you want a Christian take, "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Buddhist thinking speaks of the responsibility to contribute positively to humanity as a whole, and I think this is critical here. When faced with terrible injustice such as the fate of the children in the child boiler, most would do nothing. Some - like Kenzan and Kiga Group - befoul their own karma and that of humanity by losing themselves in the hunger for revenge. Some very few, like Momoka and shota Shouma, do the right thing simply because they listen to their Buddha nature, and act from compassion.

The tragedy of Shouma is that he's strayed from the path, and become bogged down in the useless emotion of guilt. Momoka died or was somehow transformed at the very least, but Shouma stayed on the Earth and lost his way.
Guardian Enzo is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 17:44   Link #52
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
I pretty much agree with Guardian Enzo & Kazu-Kun

I do expect Shouma to ultimately be the hero of the story but yes he has to let go of blaming others and himself before he can accomplish this. And I still think it might take Ringo to get him there.


However I am not necessarily sure if Momoka reached a higher existence either. She seems to be stuck in the library and if Momoka is the Hat then well she seems to have lost some of that purity. I still think she has a final role to play as well.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 18:20   Link #53
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer View Post
PengDrum has been a rollercoaster so far, but I'd wait until the very end to decide whether it was a product of real genius or just drama for the sake of drama. It depends on the payoff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaden View Post
This might just be my own antipathy for the direction the show has taken, but I feel like Mawaru Penguindrum's potential for social commentary really got mangled inside the character drama. I can appreciate the comparisons to Murakami (one of my favorite authors), and the show's surreal style continues to be top-notch, but the characters lost me somewhere between the artificial families and convoluted motivations.

I liked how down-to-earth the Shoma/Himari story was, compared to what was starting to look like "broken character of the week" in the previous few episodes. I don't think the brutality of the Child Broiler imagery really hit me until the glass shards of shredded children's lives cut Shoma. It's a nice symbol for his awakening to their circumstances — he's literally being hit in the face with the consequences.
Bold emphasis mine.


The parts of the two posts I'm quoting here come pretty close to reflecting my own views on Penguin Drum over its last two episodes, and I've been admittedly struggling to find the right words to convey my mixed feelings there.


As a Director, Ikuhara is doing a fantastic job here. Atmospheric and symbolic visuals are so richly interwoven with key characterization moments, causing everything to come across as "larger than life" yet also palpable and sublime. Furthermore, scene transitions are crisp and effective, and the full work flows marvelously.


As a Writer, however, Ikuhara is losing me a bit. As someone who tends to like plot twists, I nonetheless can't help but feel that there's an overabundance of them here, and it's honestly getting tricky for me to keep everything straight due to those plot twists and some other factors. Given that it's already difficult to fully grasp the thick and multifaceted symbolism in this anime, the final effect of this is sheer bewilderment, I have to be honest here.

It doesn't help matters that I don't find Shouma particularly compelling in the role of main main protagonist, and that seems to be where the narrative is taking him now. I just don't think his character has been set up well enough for that role.

I don't dislike Shouma, and I think he's a likable enough character (certainly helped by his story of rescuing Himari, of course), but he's too passive/reactive and excessively consumed with guilt for me to easily accept him as the hero of the tale.


Now, as it pertains to plot twists... the recent Himari/Shouma reveals are almost disorienting to me. Wasn't just about everybody here saying that Mario Natsume was Himari's "fated one"? And all of sudden, Mario is a virtual nonfactor it seems.

This sudden change also weakens the Momoka = PoC theory, imo. I mean, lots of people here were thoroughly convinced that Mario = Himari's fated one, and we saw what happened there. So there's probably nothing that this anime narrative could pull at this point that should shock anyone. Maybe the PoC is Sanetoshi's gender-bent clone, who knows?


Still, Ikuhara the Director more than makes up for my issues with Ikuhara the Writer. The man is a superb Director, and it would be great to see him take on more Director roles in the future within the anime world.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 18:31   Link #54
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Nothing in the actual story said Mario was Himari's fated one. The only reason people thought that is because people jumped the gun seeing his seiyuu listed in the credits in episode 9 I believe.

oh of course Ikuhara was trying to trick the audience there and well the audience fell for it. But storywise, it being one of the brothers makes a lot more sense than Mario who we never even saw interact with Himari (and who also seems much younger than the rest of the cast).

However as for Mario I still think he has a small role to play, perhaps in the next episode when I think we will find out why Kanba is with the Takakura's and not the Natsume's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple R
but he's too passive/reactive and excessively consumed with guilt for me to easily accept him as the hero of the tale.
But that is the point, Shouma cannot be the "hero" of the story until he stops being passive/reactive and consumed with guilt. But I would be very surprised if that is not where the story is leading.

I understand not wanting to wait until the end of the story for this development but I think that is just how it is going to be. Ikuhara was dealing with each character in their turn and Shouma (possibly the most important) was just last.



As for the Penguin Hat=Momoka being a red herring normally I would say it's not but in this case I guess anything is possible with Ikuhara. So yeah until it's said for sure we probably shouldn't jump to conclusions.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 18:43   Link #55
mellomarie
fullblown technicolour
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
beautiful, poignant episode.

i really liked how it was directed. i'm definitely a bit confused tho i must say

masako and kanba being siblings was not a suprise. kenzan being their father--also not a suprise, i basically thought as much since masako's flashback episode.

HOWEVER they refer to shoma as some random boy at first outside BUT THEN they show shoma talking to kenzan and referring to him as father. so are kanba and sho related then? just the need the clarification.

as for the child broiler, while I originally thought it was metaphorical, i'm beginning to think it is real. if there are penguins and the hole in the sky, and a hat that possesses a girl...why can't the child broiler be real? the symbolism still packs a mighty punch--the divide between people, chosen and unchosen, and how we as people easily succumub to those labels. but i i'm definitely think that the child broiler is a real place where children go.

i have to say though that i saw lots of sho x ringo this episode--it's very subtle development (THE BEST KIND). a couple episodes ago shoma didn't even want to talk to ringo and now he's sharing some very person information with her. and ringo has become AMAZING i can't help but be proud lol

i'm suprised to learn that shoma knew he had made himari his soulmate. the best (and weird part) was how there was no inner turmoil of himari remembering that fact. they carried on like a normal family this episode. i think it shows that nothing will change and they truly think of each other as siblings.

my final bit is that sanetoshi and himari had some serious chemistry in their scene
__________________
game of thrones | card captor sakura | misfits | honey & clover | breaking bad | NANA | the inbetweeners | afterschool nightmare | bokura ga ita | dexter |
mellomarie is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 18:49   Link #56
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I understand not wanting to wait until the end of the story for this development but I think that is just how it is going to be.
Characterization-wise, this is probably the main issue for me. I just don't like the idea of a character of Shouma's type suddenly becoming GAR in the last episode or two of a two cour anime. I'd rather more even character development than that.

Still, as you say, perhaps it couldn't be helped.


Quote:
As for the Penguin Hat=Momoka being a red herring normally I would say it's not but in this case I guess anything is possible with Ikuhara. So yeah until it's said for sure we probably shouldn't jump to conclusions.
Part of the reason why I've never fully bought into Penguin Hat=Momoka is that it just doesn't fly personality-wise without a very good explanation for the drastic change.

You have a point in how, seiyu list hints notwithstanding, it makes more sense for one of the brothers to be Himari's fated one than for Mario to be that.

Likewise, in spite of certain hints to the contrary, it makes more sense to me for PoC to not be Momoka.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 19:15   Link #57
wandering-dreamer
reads too much
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: you know that's a great question.....
I suspect the hat is Momoka since I remember seeing a split second screenshot of Sanetoshi placing the hat on her head and then she vanished leaving the hat behind (this was the episode when we could see her running around but a few before we saw her face). With something that subtle and hard to miss I think it's probably the truth instead of a misdirection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellomarie View Post
masako and kanba being siblings was not a suprise. kenzan being their father--also not a suprise, i basically thought as much since masako's flashback episode.
Wait, when was that stated/shown in this episode? I think I remember seeing Shouma calling his dad "dad" but I thought Masako was saying that he needed to get to the point when he talked about their father, a different person all together.
wandering-dreamer is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 19:17   Link #58
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Going with Momoka being the Penguin Hat I think possibly her change in personality comes from the fact that she did change after the last transfer where she disappeared. And she might not be so pure hearted anymore (although I would trust her more than Sanetoshi).


And Wandering Dreamer is right I don't think the episode said that Kenzan was Natsume & Kanba's father but Shouma's. Interestingly that scene when Shouma asked Kenzan about the "Child Broiler" was the first time we see a direct interaction between them.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline  
Old 2011-11-25, 19:23   Link #59
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mellomarie View Post
masako and kanba being siblings was not a suprise. kenzan being their father--also not a suprise, i basically thought as much since masako's flashback episode.

HOWEVER they refer to shoma as some random boy at first outside BUT THEN they show shoma talking to kenzan and referring to him as father. so are kanba and sho related then? just the need the clarification.
Masako and Kanba are not Kenzan's kids. Kenzan's only child, the only real Takakura heir, seems to be Shouma. Masako and Kanba are of the Natsume family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The parts of the two posts I'm quoting here come pretty close to reflecting my own views on Penguin Drum over its last two episodes, and I've been admittedly struggling to find the right words to convey my mixed feelings there.
I was wondering when you were going to post. I wanted to read your take on all the recent "developments". Unfortunately I'm a bit busy right now. I'll post a reply later when I have more time.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is online now  
Old 2011-11-25, 19:23   Link #60
YayPepsi
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
I was thinking about a line in the novel, about Ringo and Shoma.
Spoiler:
__________________

Last edited by YayPepsi; 2011-11-25 at 19:24. Reason: Not sure if novel things need spoilered even if they've already passed?
YayPepsi is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.