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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 20 Rating
Perfect 10 30 46.15%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 24 36.92%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 9.23%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 3.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 3.08%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-25, 19:28   Link #61
Kirarakim
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Actually from what Shouma said in the novel

Spoiler for Novel 2 corresponds to episode 18:


While he is not running away from Ringo anymore (it seems) since he still obviously has his guilt complex the second one is more dubious making me think the novel and anime are approaching Shouma's development a little differently.

However I wouldn't necessarily take what Sanetoshi says about chasing and running away at face value when it comes to relationships.
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Old 2011-11-25, 19:30   Link #62
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YayPepsi View Post
In this episode, Sanetoshi talked about running and chasing. But if the other party is no longer running, isn't the chase over?
Accourding to Sanetoshi, if the chaser doesn't run, the love won't come to fruiting, but he didn't say anything about what would happen if the one who stop running is the chased one, and let the chaser reach him. To me, that seems to describe the only love that would truly come to fruition (and that's why he didn't say anything about it ).

If what the novel said about Shou is true, then this almost guarantees a

Spoiler:

But I'm not convinced yet. Because the novel also said he was going to stop running away from fate, and it wasn't true (yet): he's still running!!
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-11-25 at 21:08.
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Old 2011-11-25, 21:17   Link #63
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Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer View Post
I suspect the hat is Momoka since I remember seeing a split second screenshot of Sanetoshi placing the hat on her head and then she vanished leaving the hat behind (this was the episode when we could see her running around but a few before we saw her face). With something that subtle and hard to miss I think it's probably the truth instead of a misdirection.


Wait, when was that stated/shown in this episode? I think I remember seeing Shouma calling his dad "dad" but I thought Masako was saying that he needed to get to the point when he talked about their father, a different person all together.
ahhh okay i understand. i had assumed when masako said "our father" and the shot changed to kenzan, she was referring to him. thanks!
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:09   Link #64
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If the world with those robot teddies can exist, why can't the child broiler exist beyond being a metaphoric representation of loneliness/abandonment/etc?

I got the impression that it was real, what with Kenzan discussing it with Shouma and Shouma suddenly disappearing. When he disappeared, I thought, "Oh, he must be in that plane where children are taken to await their death."

Of course, this is all assuming that the world where the Princess is always lecturing Shouma and Kanba is real, of course.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:22   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Yuutsu View Post
If the world with those robot teddies can exist, why can't the child broiler exist beyond being a metaphoric representation of loneliness/abandonment/etc?
I assume it is a real place too at least for the characters. But for the audience it is a metaphorical place, if that makes any sense.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:26   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I assume it is a real place to at least for the characters. But for the audience it is a metaphorical place, if that makes any sense.
I think I get what you're saying.

For the audience, it's meant to be symbolic of something that's real (and obviously there's nothing in the modern world quite like the Child Broiler).

For the characters, though, it's real. Those who go into the Child Broiler really are getting, well, killed pretty much.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:31   Link #67
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Ah, got it. So that's what you guys were talking about.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:40   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
For the characters, though, it's real. Those who go into the Child Broiler really are getting, well, killed pretty much.
I disagree. Ikuhara doesn't play strait with these things.
Spoiler for Utena movie:

The point of this ambiguity is to drill into the viewer that it's IRRELEVANT whether it's real or not. The only thing that matters is the metaphor, the meaning behind it.

It's the same with the Child Broiler. Ikuhara will never tell you if it's a real place (inside the story) or not, because it doesn't' matter at all. What matter is the theme.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-11-26 at 14:48.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:47   Link #69
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Well I assume all the surreal stuff that happens in the series is "real" within the context of the story but since it is surreal I don't dwell on how that can be possible.


Of course I do agree that the symbolism/metaphor behind the place is what is ultimately important.

And to clarify I don't think the Child Broiler represents any particular real place in the real world. I think it is just a representation of those who feel abandoned by society. If they could all end up in a some surreal representative place they would end up in a place like the "Child Broiler" where the only thing left for them is to die or turn invisible.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:55   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Well I assume all the surreal stuff that happens in the series is "real" within the context of the story.
Yeah, but the point of it being "surreal" is that you never know (and will never know) whether is "real" withing the context of the story or not.

And to be honest, even thinking about it is a waste of time and Ikuhara, being the troll that he is, obviously knows it .
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:01   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
And to be honest, even thinking about it is a waste of time and Ikuhara, being the troll that he is, obviously knows it .
But you know these type of discussions are fun


Anyways I was thinking back to Shouma's "story" in episode 12 or 13 (can't remember) the one about the 3 little lambs.

I was trying to figure out when that story would become clearer. But now I wonder if Shouma was speaking of his bitterness of his father abandoning him, Himari, and Kanba to save other children/the world from the "child broiler". It is kind of ironic when you think about it.

Of course there is a bunch of stuff in Shouma's story that I still can't apply to the series.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:03   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I disagree.
Then what exactly is happening to the kids that go into the child broiler?


Quote:
The point of this ambiguity is to drill into the viewer that it's IRRELEVANT whether it's real or not.
And that's something that I just don't agree with. I think that what is actually happening in the story is important, and that it isn't irrelevant at all.

A good story - at least any good story aside from pure fantasy - is more than simply a collection of metaphors, symbols, and themes, in my opinion.


Edit: Also, if the writer himself doesn't care if the Child Broiler is real for the characters or not, then why bother disagreeing with me on it? If the writer doesn't care, why is Kirarakim or myself wrong for interpreting the Child Broiler as being real for the characters? The characters certainly talk about it as though it's a real place.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:18   Link #73
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Edit: Also, if the writer himself doesn't care if the Child Broiler is real for the characters or not, then why bother disagreeing with me on it? If the writer doesn't care, why is Kirarakim or myself wrong for interpreting the Child Broiler as being real for the characters? The characters certainly talk about it as though it's a real place.
If you want to think that it's real then be my guest. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with that. Sorry if my post came across as if I was correcting you or something. That wasn't my intention.

I was just stating my opinion on Ikuhara's intention with all the ambiguity going on. If you ever read interviews and commentaries by this guy, you'd immediately know that he doesn't like playing by the "rules" of classical narrative at all. For him the story is just an excuse to talk about a theme and nothing more. So if he has to break the narrative into pieces to the point it becomes completely illogical, he'll do it. He couldn't care less if people don't like it.

Did you know the even his own creative team was against the "car" thing from the Utena movie? He did it anyway. And when people asked what does it means, he just said "I like chicks and cars" or something like that .

You might not like this, but that's just the way he works.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-11-26 at 14:49.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:23   Link #74
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Of course I would argue that the Child Broiler and people turning into cars are two very different extremes here.

I still need to watch the Utena movie but from I heard (and again I am going by word of mouth) that movie is even more out there when it comes to symbolism then Utena!TV and Penguindrum.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:26   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
If you want to think that it's real then be my guest. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with that. Sorry if my post came across as if I was correcting you or something. That wasn't my intention.

I was just stating my opinion on Ikuhara's intention with all the ambiguity going on.
Well, I'm fine with some ambiguity. At a practical level, how I'll respond to that is try to interpret the surreal scenes the way that works best for me.

If Ikuhara has some surreal scenes in there just because they seem cool to him, that's fine. But I still am inclined to try to pick some sense out of it, insofar as the characters take it seriously at least.

Edit: For Utena turning into a car, I'd lean towards that being theater of the mind stuff for her and Anthy. It's also sexually suggestive to be sure.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:43   Link #76
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*skim through what others posted*

Let me see what I have to say on the episode...

A lot of reality crazy changes happen in the show because of Momoka's power, but I think the Child Broiler is true even in "the present", since the kid's father talks something about stopping that when he makes his "I'll become an anti-hero and do everything to save Himari" in the end of the episode.

If it's metaphorical "only to the viewer" than it's an interpretation of the author's point right? I guess the only metaphorical thing so far is all that broken shards falling down imaginery.

And about Masako and Kanba being siblings... I don't know, somehow I can't buy it. The show might change the idea later right? xD I still think the key to understand Kanba and Masako relationship lies in the scene where Kanba appear to her (as kids) wearing that red/pink sweater. He had only used that green jacket in flashbacks so far or am I remmembering wrong?

And yeah, it makes sense to Momoka be the hat. Even because Tabuki and Yuri kept saying "Momoka's gone but she's not dead" or something of the sorts.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:47   Link #77
Kazu-kun
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Of course I would argue that the Child Broiler and people turning into cars are two very different extremes here.
The difference is context. The Utena movie doesn't have any framework backing all the crazy. It really is a bunch of symbols and motifs put together. Penguindrum and the Utena TV introduce a framework that gives some sort of context to all the crazy things. But even then, everything is ambiguous, and he'll never tell you whether the crazy stuff is real. Not even in commentaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If Ikuhara has some surreal scenes in there just because they seem cool to him, that's fine. But I still am inclined to try to pick some sense out of it, insofar as the characters take it seriously at least.
Of course, whatever works for you.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-11-26 at 00:17.
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Old 2011-11-26, 00:01   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I disagree. Ikuhara doesn't play strait with these things. Did Utena really became a car at the end of the Utena movie? We certainly see her as a car, and Anthy even drove her . But there was no car. I mean, there was and there wasn't.
Schrodinger's car? XD I like the explanation that it's both real and metaphorical, especially since I doubt it'll matter much in the end unless some of the characters get sent back there when Sanetoshi/Momoka/someone tries to reset fate.
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Old 2011-11-26, 00:56   Link #79
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Yeah, but the point of it being "surreal" is that you never know (and will never know) whether is "real" withing the context of the story or not.

And to be honest, even thinking about it is a waste of time and Ikuhara, being the troll that he is, obviously knows it .
I thought that surreal just means something which alter your sense of reality and will forever change the audiences view point about the world ? (watch this, watch this ). I understands what you implied through


Agree that the child broiler in this case could be a new concept, something convenient for the plot, and could both exist and not. Something relevant for that specific occasion but irrelevant otherwise. Like those huge balls dropping down from the trucks during the end of last episode. They rolled up and down, blocking the way, acted like a crowd of walking people and created a great sense of suspense (of chasing). But they will not get in the way of the plot
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Old 2011-11-26, 01:25   Link #80
Kazu-kun
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I thought that surreal just means something which alter your sense of reality and will forever change the audiences view point about the world ?
I was just trying to explain why Ikuhara, or any other director/writer might rely on surrealist elements as a story-telling device. The use of non sequitur, unexpected juxtapositions, symbolism, and basically all sort of illogical shit, serves to break the narrative and distance the viewer from the plot. Why? So that the viewer may pay more attention to the themes behind it. This sort of story-telling is basically the opposite to the classic narrative style (think Hollywood or any "normal" anime), which strives to make the viewer immerse themselves into the plot and characters as much as possible, to the point they might lose sight of the themes (if there's any). Of course the classic approach is a lot more entertaining and a lot more cathartic for the viewer.

But you said you got my point so I don't know why I'm posting all this stuff. Don't mind me, I'm just an idiot .
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