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Old 2011-11-25, 03:48   Link #61
Ermes Marana
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Certainly there are more TV shows

Are there? 2006 still has the records for the most tv shows and the most shows overall. 2006 and 2007 both have more 3+ ep shows than any other years. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 are the years with the most 20+ ep shows (2010 is below 1998 and 1999).

So no, there aren't really more shows (at least not in 2008-2010). And there certainly isn't more play time, because shows have gotten shorter on average.

Late 90s anime ≠ early/mid 2000s anime ≠ current anime


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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
As I recommended in my original point, throw that entire term out; it's completely useless, loaded, and is only resulting in endless back and forth about "what is moe" and "what isn't moe". What has actually changed?

Unfortunately, it isn't that easy. You will always end up going back and forth on something subjective.

For example, I would say that one of the major factors is the increase in popularity of young female characters who are targeted at 20-something men, and are not relatable or very interesting. The top sales lists provide some evidence of the first part because there are lots of seinen shows starring young girls.

However, whether or not the characters are relatable or interesting enough to justify their starring role, or whether their starring role was earned only by the archetype they fit, is subjective. And it will always be subjective.

Last edited by Ermes Marana; 2011-11-25 at 23:00.
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Old 2011-11-25, 04:20   Link #62
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Isn't there evidence of a larger female anime viewing population in the last year or so?
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Old 2011-11-25, 04:51   Link #63
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Originally Posted by RandySyler View Post
Well, there's always Steins;Gate.
Oh yea. That does count as Sci-fi, doesn't it?

Well, to be more more specific -- I'm looking more towards the space travel sub-set to sci. fi. then. Spaceships. Traveling to other planets, etc. That kind of stuff. Even better... space travel with hot chicks... like Kiddy Grade.

In any case, many of the genres enjoyed in previous past -- were phased out. They currently do not make as much money as... all these "moe" series. After all, just look at how audiences respond to "moe" series. They go bat crazy over them and shell out the money accordingly. I mean, one way to compete against this is to come up with some... awesome story. Steins; Gate being a very good example of that.
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Old 2011-11-25, 04:57   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
Are there? 2006 still has the records for the most tv shows and the most shows overall. 2006 and 2007 both have more 3+ ep shows than any other years. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 are the years with the most 20+ ep shows (2010 is below 1998 and 1999).

So no, there aren't really more shows (at least not in 2008-2010). And there certainly isn't more playtime, because shows have gotten shorter on average.

Late 90s anime ≠ early/mid 2000s anime ≠ current anime
This is all a matter of how you parse the stats and breakdown the timeframes. I was considering much larger chunks of times, with the delineation (for the sake of argument) being the transition to digital. You could say that it should be broken down to much finer detail, but it depends on what particular set of trends you're trying to talk around. The original argument was centering around moe, and I would say that trend likely started early last decade (perhaps around 2001/2002?). But this is precisely why I wanted to avoid use of the term, because it alludes definition. I was also talking simply about "new TV shows" regardless of episode count, thus no relation to "play time".

So basically you're saying "I framed the argument wrong", but the context in my mind was the previous thread. What context of change do you want to talk about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
Unfortunately, it isn't that easy. You will always end up going back and forth on something subjective.

For example, I would say that one of the major factors is the increase in popularity of young female characters who are targeted at 20-something men, and are not relatable or very interesting. The top sales lists provide some evidence of the first part because there are lots of seinen shows starring young girls.

However, whether or not the characters are relatable or interesting enough to justify their starring role, or whether their starring role was earned only by the archetype they fit, is subjective. And it will always be subjective.
It's not that there's subjectivity, it's that even the subjectivity needs to be clearly-defined. Your example is much better defined than the "is or isn't it moe" discussion before. At least now there's some basis to quantify that assertion and put some data behind it, rather than simply arguing semantics.

On the other hand...
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
In any case, many of the genres enjoyed in previous past -- were phased out. They currently do not make as much money as... all these "moe" series. After all, just look at how audiences respond to "moe" series. They go bat crazy over them and shell out the money accordingly. I mean, one way to compete against this is to come up with some... awesome story. Steins; Gate being a very good example of that.
...this is basically impossible to quantify. "All these 'moe' series", like what? What's included? What's not included? What about the ones with "awesome story"? Do none of them have an "awesome story"? Does Steins; Gate not contain any moe elements or traits? What about "all these 'moe' series" that don't make money, that people don't go "bat crazy" over? Aren't there many "moe" shows also in the same genres that were enjoyed in the past? It's like some sort of bizarre code that borders on indecipherable, but "sounds" kind of reasonable if you don't think about it too much.
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Old 2011-11-25, 08:07   Link #65
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I actually agree with that, what I have problem was that Ermes Marana was using these titles in a way that suggesting that all these titles are aimed "DIRECTLY" to Otaku when the orgin of majority of those title suggests otherwise. Not to mention he only seem to pick titles that fits his argument fo it's only natural I cherry-picking it apart to prove my point.

With that being said, we can then say that those series that were specifically picked for anime adaption because they would appeal to the that Otaku market for the reason as you stated, becuase they are the one buying stuff.

But the point Ermes Marana and others was missing was that the otaku crowd are also the one that bought the merchandise for the main stream shows as well. The reason there are fewer shows like Trigun or other were because the mainstream are not buying related products of those shows not because they don't appeal to the otaku.

80s/90s anime has ton of fan service character. The fact that Fujiko and Reiko both are still considered as one the the top anime/manga sex symbol Minami is still consider by many as the top miwaifu material showed that those caracter type exist back then. Not only that has had tons of shonen action that was full of echii is not borderline ero. Kotaro Makaritoru, Hokuto no Ken, Cat's eye, City Hunter, Bastard!!, Tenchi wo Kurau, Hana no Keiji, all have ton of fan service scene or explicit nude scene with breast/sex that has all but disappeared in shonen and is more common on seinen magazine nowadays.

I actually cover the second part a bit in previous posts. The 80s' anime also got is own barely adult/creepy issue. unless the current "younger than you look" the 80s anime/manga are "older than you look" type. Take Saint seiya for example, Saori (Athena) is the fan service character in the series yet despite her sexiness she is officially 13 years old. Also that's not forget that Kenshin married Tomoe at age 15 (usual marry age at time but still...).
I somewhat agree with what's posted here, especially the last two paragraphs. Though personally I haven't seen that much change in the anime industry because I only get to know it in the early 2000s.

I'd also like to add, being able to enjoy "great stories with deep plots and twists" doesn't have to mean being unable to enjoy "mindless fanservice shows", or vice versa. I get why the two genres need to be separated, but I don't get why the one watching also need to have the dichotomy. I can enjoy one as much as I enjoy the other.


From what I gather, people refer to "moe" from the art-style or archetypal personalities. The art-style is clearly one of the most obvious change in anime industry, but liking it or not is purely subjective imo so nothing from me there.

As for archetype personalities, I don't get the hate on it. I'd say it's impossible to stray away from "archetypes" since I haven't seen one character that doesn't have even one of them (but it might be just me, so please prove me wrong).
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Old 2011-11-25, 14:57   Link #66
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Well, to be more more specific -- I'm looking more towards the space travel sub-set to sci. fi. then. Spaceships. Traveling to other planets, etc. That kind of stuff. Even better... space travel with hot chicks... like Kiddy Grade.

Well, there is Space Battleship Yamato. There was an anime movie in 2009 and there will be a series in 2012. There is a CGI Captain Harlock movie coming out, though I don't know when. Though there are usually only one or two hot chicks in these shows.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:39   Link #67
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
...this is basically impossible to quantify. "All these 'moe' series", like what? What's included? What's not included? What about the ones with "awesome story"? Do none of them have an "awesome story"? Does Steins; Gate not contain any moe elements or traits? What about "all these 'moe' series" that don't make money, that people don't go "bat crazy" over? Aren't there many "moe" shows also in the same genres that were enjoyed in the past? It's like some sort of bizarre code that borders on indecipherable, but "sounds" kind of reasonable if you don't think about it too much.
What it is sounding like is that moe=character archetypes that are generally enjoyed by the viewing audience of said media form (anime), and moe series=series containing much of above defined moe, therefore moe series=series containing characters with archetypes enjoyed by audience, so moe series=any successful anime ever, and success=enjoyment of characters present and characters=archetype being present and characters with archetypes present=story+animation from Japan=anime. Therefore, moe series=anime that is enjoyed by a demographic.

So my point is that there is no such thing as a 'definitive' moe series as being apart from basically anime as a whole, making the use of the term a moot point.
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Old 2011-11-26, 00:13   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Isn't there evidence of a larger female anime viewing population in the last year or so?
Yes, K-On! (an oft used example by "anti-moe" self-declared people as 'evil') is actually both popular with both sexes and is quietly trundling into mainstream acceptance both in Japan and in North America.
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Old 2011-11-26, 00:34   Link #69
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I can't comment on how much anime has changed due to lack of experience with pre-2000 anime, but I'll say that I enjoy it very much for what it is now. I was introduced to anime with Rurouni Kenshin in 1999 or 2000, but I hardly watched much beyond Pokemon until 2006, when I broke into Ghibli films. Still, I didn't even start getting into the contemporary anime craze until 2008. That's why I'm so tolerant of recent trends: this is *my* generation of anime. Nothing against sci-fi action, but I'd rather see more cute, heartwarming slice-of-life or romance series than hardcore dystopian sci-fi action series. That's just my personal taste.

I'm most accustomed to the typically "soft", clean, occasionally childish art style of current anime, and I'm generally more attracted to characters in that art style, such as Mysu and Akiko, than I am to those in the "edgier", rough art style like with Myung Fang Long and Faye Valentine. Of course, this is just in general; there are plenty of exceptions.

However, like a lot of other anime fans, I do wish there was more variety. It would be nice to have more anime like Macross Plus, Texhnolyze, Monster, and even Madoka Magica being released among modern anime.

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Oh yea. That does count as Sci-fi, doesn't it?

Well, to be more more specific -- I'm looking more towards the space travel sub-set to sci. fi. then. Spaceships. Traveling to other planets, etc. That kind of stuff. Even better... space travel with hot chicks... like Kiddy Grade.
There's Mouretsu Pirates, although it hasn't aired yet.
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Old 2011-11-26, 00:56   Link #70
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Based on the OP, and my own growing frustration with anime, I'd say the following are what have taken place in terms of "perceived moe""

Change from plot-driven to character-driven
Change from older-looking characters to younger-looking characters

I grew up on the "younger kids" anime of the late 90's and early 00's, which are pretty much action-driven with some character development, even if the development was based on what we now call cliches. Which is why, in my personal opinion, a lot of the more recent anime has gone downhill. My personal definition of moe is "cute girls A) doing cute things (I'm going to be the ass who uses K-on as the example here) or B)kicking ass (Strike Witches)". Now, I can tolerate this to a certain degree... but not when the entire damned show is about either of the above. As I said, I grew up on the action-orientated stuff of the late 90's/early 2000's, and the biggest change I've seen between now and then that is my personal hatred is... lack of a strong male lead. Granted, a lot of my shows tend to be harem shows... and they've changed a lot too. In the original harems (Tenchi, for example), sure, the girls can kick a ton of ass, but Tenchi himself was just as powerful, or as often hinted, perhaps even more so. But, it's gradually become a case of the girls do a lot of fighting (so that there is sexual fanservice galore), while the most the male lead can do is stumble into perverted situations (which further adds to the fanservice).

But I digress with harems... I'm sure that many of us can agree that we want a character we can somehow relate with in the anime we watch... and in the "cute girl/moe" kind of shows, there's a lack of that kind of character, at least for me; i.e., there's rarely a guy around, and if he is, he tends to be a weak supporting character. Now, this wouldn't be so bad... but unless I've been watching the wrong anime (which is highly possible, given what I stated I watch far too much of above), that type of show seems to be the majority these days.
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Old 2011-11-26, 01:00   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
A lot more bland. Far less variety these days. I can tell you that much. Of course, back in the day, it was a lot of magical girl and mecha. But there was a transition period between 2000 to 2008, where the general taste in genres were shifting.

What you don't see all that much these days: samurai, ninja dramas. Even if these are still being made, y'don't hear much out of 'em. Nothing on the order of say: Kenshin.
you right men, i remember those wonderfull years about good anime, I mean mexico, xD for the year 1998 to 2004 the internet was not yet as now and all I had was the TV: shonen, shojo, thrillers were no even know.

the "moe" i met him until saw K-On, because in the anime informaton i am very late if more about this genre tell me please! also animes.


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Originally Posted by brocko View Post
"Has anime really changed at all?"

Looks the same to me

EDIT: Anime has always been largely junk, much like any other entertainment medium. The same proportion of junk shows back then would probably equal the same proportion of junk shows nowadays.
fingers full of wisdom, xD so true, Japan now produces more lusty thumbed Echhi that is bought by Japanese adults aged 33 have not started sexual activity devoted to professional advancement.


I also see like the pictures. LOL


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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Yes, K-On! (an oft used example by "anti-moe" self-declared people as 'evil')
i understand that in USA and Canada the anime is very censored, this is the reason in Latinoamerica preferred downloading the internet and support the fansubs.

I hope understood your idea.
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Last edited by Transitions; 2011-11-26 at 01:21.
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Old 2011-11-26, 01:16   Link #72
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This thread (and the picture above) prompted me to read this:
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/118...Episode-26/0/?

In just about a few minutes of Eva slice-of-life, a historical turning point was created.



Quoting a post from there, which quoted critic Hiroki Azuma:
Quote:
Anno flirted with the impossible task of constructing a grand narrative in the 1990s, but in the end it proved impossible, and all that remained was Ayanami Rei as a moe kyara, that is, as an affective figure. In this respect, I think that the scene in the twenty-sixth episode of Evangelion in which Ayanami Rei appears running with bread in her mouth marks a turning point in otaku culture, the moment when the Era of Fictions became the Era of Animals, when the Era of Fictional Histories gave way to the Era of Affective Response to Characters (kyara moe). This is why Evangelion remains such an important work.
To be frank, I wanted to be as open-minded as possible when it comes to my watching preferences, that is, trying the different dishes on the smorgasbord, unlike some fans who prefer sticking to one particular era or genre.
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Old 2011-11-26, 02:48   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
Are there? 2006 still has the records for the most tv shows and the most shows overall. 2006 and 2007 both have more 3+ ep shows than any other years. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 are the years with the most 20+ ep shows (2010 is below 1998 and 1999).

So no, there aren't really more shows (at least not in 2008-2010). And there certainly isn't more play time, because shows have gotten shorter on average.

Late 90s anime ≠ early/mid 2000s anime ≠ current anime

The problem with that logic was that, during early 2000s the whole world is transitioning into digital age with DVD media. As lot of those 3-10 episode stuff are OVA, meaning that aren't aired on TV first.

Compare to now to then there are more TV timeslot dedicate to anime now more than ever. Sure, sometime the market got saturated so much (ie 2006,2009) that there might not be many as many new shows in next year and those timeslot instead got replaced with reruns.

Gones are the days of Cyber Formula where they release 5,6 episodes on tape/VCD. Heck, you'll never see 110 episode OVA like Legend of Galactic Heroes or 13 epiisode OVA like Record of Lodoss War.

Instead, OVA is now mostly refer to special episodes that were included on DVD of the say series or promotional episodes used to promote upcoming season.

Yes, the total of show might be the same, but many show that weren't used to be on TV are now on TV first.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
Unfortunately, it isn't that easy. You will always end up going back and forth on something subjective.

For example, I would say that one of the major factors is the increase in popularity of young female characters who are targeted at 20-something men, and are not relatable or very interesting. The top sales lists provide some evidence of the first part because there are lots of seinen shows starring young girls.

However, whether or not the characters are relatable or interesting enough to justify their starring role, or whether their starring role was earned only by the archetype they fit, is subjective. And it will always be subjective.
I agree that there are more anime adaption with cute female characters that were based on their appeal to 20+ male, but the question are they impacting the none moe character-centric show being made?

IMO, the answer is no. As I say those shows are still being made and you agreed, then what was the issue? the quality of the shows those action/sci-fi/suspense type?

Using your examples from 1998 (even though a few series were actually not from that year) only was originated as anime original. So to say that the moe-centric show impact what was being made was wrong as most anime are still derived from manga, light novel, or games.

Everything else on your list are still manga derived, 3 of them are senin derived in Outlaw Star, Master Keaton, Cowboy Bepop and Berserk, While HxH, Trigun, Kenshin are shounen. Among them, original Cowboy Bepop manga was actually a fairly short and mediocre seinen manga with only 2 volumes.

As I mentioned there are clearly more Shonen manga derive anime than ever especially titles from JUMP with OP, Naruto, Toriko, Bleach, Gintama, new HxH, and any of these series are comparative with any of three shounen you mentioned popularity wise if not more so, especially in OP's case.

So the question is really down to are there any senin-manga derived anime other than moe-centric show?

(BTW, Outlaw Star has plenty of moe-type characters as well, and features ample fan-services and harem element, and even Cowboy Bepop have its moe character type in it.)

Again, using Anime DB, and just search this year (2011) I found 3 shows that are devoid of any moe-character type:

Hyouge Mono
Shuukan Shimakou
Gyakkyou Burai Kaiji: Hakairoku Hen

All three are highly touted seinen especially Hyouge Mono and Shuukan Shimakou.

That's not including seinen manga that were made into live drama like Bartender (which also had anime 5 years ago) or Misaki #1 and was unthinkable 10,15 years.

Actually this reminds me that there are a lot more manga that where getting adapted into live drama since 2006 (beforem than it was far in between) which could explain the potential lower count of seinen anime. Title like Monster would be made into drama right now and not anime.

Anyway, so now the issue is in 1998, what other seine-manga based show are there, and through anime DB, there are total of 15 seinen manga shows and at least 1/2 are fan-service/ecchi/comedy titles that you mentioned while the other are ambiguous titles that involves some form of moe-character type.

Examples are:
Yume de Aetara
Princess Nine
Momoiro Sisters
Android Ana Maico 2010
Futari Gurashi

And considering that 1998 is a famous action year, that is pretty represented samples.

The only thing I would say is that nowadays, there are a lot more light novel based anime adaption and since LN tend to be more suspect of checklist mentality of character types it reflects on the anime adaption.

BTW, I find it interesting that almost every LN-based anime are tagged with seinin in Anime DB perhaps because most LN-based manga are serialized in seinen magazines. But technically light novels are market toward teenagers like sounen mangas do.


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To be frank, I wanted to be as open-minded as possible when it comes to my watching preferences, that is, trying the different dishes on the smorgasbord, unlike some fans who prefer sticking to one particular era or genre.
And that is IMO, the problem with western fans or at least the ones who are picky with genre. When they realize the trend is toward a genre they don't like, they blame everything on otaku, when otaku are in reality the ones that watches EVERYTHING and it is those close minded fans that was being picky. Not to mention they are also the ones that tend to not buy the related product the further the demise of their favorite genre. (or at least force their genre to adapt.)
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Old 2011-11-26, 03:31   Link #74
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But I digress with harems... I'm sure that many of us can agree that we want a character we can somehow relate with in the anime we watch... and in the "cute girl/moe" kind of shows, there's a lack of that kind of character, at least for me; i.e., there's rarely a guy around, and if he is, he tends to be a weak supporting character. Now, this wouldn't be so bad... but unless I've been watching the wrong anime (which is highly possible, given what I stated I watch far too much of above), that type of show seems to be the majority these days.
This may actually be a legitimate trend in a way, but it probably is also a matter of genre.

In stereotypical shounen (boys) works, even to this day, they generally revolve around a male protagonist, with the thought likely being as you say -- someone for the predominantly-male audience to relate to. But most of the late-night anime most talked-about here are aimed more at the seinen (young-adult men) audience, and these works tend to be much more varied in terms of male protagonists. Indeed, there are lots of seinen works that eschew the male protagonist entirely. Part of the reason for this is that the audience may not be really able to relate to a male protagonist who would be the same age as the heroines (shounen age), and thus significantly younger than them. But having an older protagonist with younger heroines (and I mean even high school age here) changes the dynamic of the story significantly, and that too may not appeal. So it's easier to just get rid of the male protagonist entirely, assuming that the audience doesn't always need/want a proxy to identify with and they can just enjoy the heroines doing their thing directly (without the "meddlesome guy" getting in the way). Both of the examples you used, K-On! and Strike Witches, are these sorts of seinen works. Of course there can also be seinen works that do feature prominent male protagonists, but they are typically older and have personalities or issues that take them beyond the "shounen action hero" sort of mold (i.e. protagonists the audience can identify with).

I might tie this back with a point that was raised earlier about "lack of relate-able characters" among the female characters (for the female audience), and I think it makes some sense too. In works where they excise the "stand-in" protagonist, that doesn't mean that the female heroines will necessarily be "relate-able" to the adult male audience, they're just designed to appeal to them. But, as such, these characters may not be automatically "relate-able" to a female audience either. Of course, I think some of the themes of these works can transcend gender, time, and place (which is why a lot of them revolve either directly or indirectly around themes of "nostalgia")... but the premise here doesn't seem to depend at all on "creating characters the audience can relate to", but rather just "creating characters the audience will enjoy".

As far as harem/fanservice shows go, I think they have always relied on the clueless/clumsy male lead to some degree, even "back in the day"... but perhaps taking a little bit of influence from some of the seinen works, you do see some of the modern shounen romance/harem shows place an even lesser emphasis on the male protagonist. For example, it's interesting to compare To Love-Ru and the newest incarnation To Love-Ru Darkness manga -- in the latter, Rito often seems to take a backseat while the heroines dominate the narration and forefront. He's only there "as necessary" because the audience really want to see the girls. You also have cases like Koihime Musou where the original game did have a male ("stand-in") protagonist, but he was excised completely from the anime (which ran for three seasons).

So all that to say, based on your preferences, you probably want to consider mostly shounen shows, and be rather careful when choosing seinen shows if having a relate-able male protagonist is a key requirement for you. I think there are actually are a lot of modern anime that still fit the bill... but if you pick the shows you watch based on popularity, you may find that it's not what you prefer.


(As a perhaps-relevant aside... the anime I most remember following and recognizing as anime growing up were actually shoujo works, like Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura. I also liked Escaflowne, which was almost half-shounen/half-shoujo, and one of my transitions into being a "modern" anime fan was Fruits Bakset -- also shoujo. So as a guy watching these shows even when I was younger, the appeal wasn't being able to identify with a male protagonist, but more to be interested in the heroine(s). So transitioning into this particular style of seinen show barely required any adjustment for me -- it was a natural transition from shoujo to seinen where the emphasis remained on enjoying the heroines. That may be why these sorts of shows appeal to me, and I wonder if perhaps people like me were part of the original consideration (guys who grew up watching shoujo anime, and not just shounen stuff).)
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Old 2011-11-26, 04:36   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Otaku LOL View Post
i understand that in USA and Canada the anime is very censored, this is the reason in Latinoamerica preferred downloading the internet and support the fansubs.

I hope understood your idea.
I think you missed the meaning... I was referring to anime fans who do not like the idea of 'moe' at all. They often point to K-On! as the latest example of 'stuff they don't like'. Usually they call such anime plot-less, shallow, or other assertions.

Anime isn't "censored" here in the US, in general. And most fans in the US have access to fansubs even if they do buy the licensed releases (which are also usually not censored). K-On! in particular isn't "censored" at all, either in fansubs or in the licensed releases as the series is about as 'safe' as it can be anyway.


And I'd like to say "BINGO! GOT IT!" to Undertaker's post:
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And that is IMO, the problem with western fans or at least the ones who are picky with genre. When they realize the trend is toward a genre they don't like, they blame everything on otaku, when otaku are in reality the ones that watches EVERYTHING and it is those close minded fans that was being picky. Not to mention they are also the ones that tend to not buy the related product the further the demise of their favorite genre. (or at least force their genre to adapt.)
I have favorite selections from almost every genre... variety is good. I won't deny I like certain themes but my collection includes things like TTGL, Kurozuka, Soul Eater, Martian Nadesico, as well as REC, Moon Phase, Love Complex, Honey&Clover, Kanon, Nanoha, or Lucky*Star and Working! (and many others).
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Old 2011-11-26, 05:18   Link #76
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Actually this reminds me that there are a lot more manga that where getting adapted into live drama since 2006 (beforem than it was far in between) which could explain the potential lower count of seinen anime. Title like Monster would be made into drama right now and not anime.
I've heard a few people mention this and I'd be interested in knowing more.

Actually, let's expand that in general. Are there certain genres more vulnerable to outside competition, like live action TV, video games, etc.?
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Old 2011-11-26, 05:20   Link #77
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As I said, I grew up on the action-orientated stuff of the late 90's/early 2000's, and the biggest change I've seen between now and then that is my personal hatred is... lack of a strong male lead. Granted, a lot of my shows tend to be harem shows... and they've changed a lot too. In the original harems (Tenchi, for example), sure, the girls can kick a ton of ass, but Tenchi himself was just as powerful, or as often hinted, perhaps even more so. But, it's gradually become a case of the girls do a lot of fighting (so that there is sexual fanservice galore), while the most the male lead can do is stumble into perverted situations (which further adds to the fanservice).

/FACEPALM

Not this shit again


Fall Season 2011

C³ -C Cube- : Haruaki Yachi (Decent fighter)
Shakugan no Shana : Sakai Yuji (Ace-in-the-hole)
Ben-To : You Satou (Strong fighter)
Persona 4: Narukami Yuu (MVP)


Summer Season 2011

Nurarihyon no Mago Sennen Makyou : Nura Rikou (Strong fighter to MVP)
Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu Ni! : Yoshii Akihisa (reliable Idiot)
Kami-sama no Memo-chou : Fujishima Narumi (reliable Idiot)
Itsuka Tenma no Kuro Usagi : Kurogane Taito (Decent fighter, or was it Ace-in-the-hole?)


Spring Season 2011

Hidan no Aria: Tohyama Kinji (Decent fighter to MVP)
DOG DAYS: Izumi Shinku (MVP)
Ao no Exorcist: Okumura Rin (MVP)


Winter Season 2011

Kore wa Zombie Desu ka?: Aikawa Ayumu (Decent Fighter)
IS - Infinite Stratos: Orimura Ichika (Ace-in-the-hole)


Fall Season 2010

STAR DRIVER Kagayaki no Takuto: Tsunashi Takuto (MVP)
To Aru Majutsu no Index II: Kamijou Touma (Ace-in-the-hole)


Summer Season 2010

Nurarihyon no Mago: Nura Rikuo (MVP)
Ookami-san to Shichinin no Nakama-tachi: Morino Ryoushi (Strong fighter)
The Legend of the Legendary Heroes: Ryner Lute (Strong fighter to Ace-in-the-hole)


Spring Season 2010

Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou: Sai Akuto (MVP)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the ones that fall under strictly fighting shows, I haven't included the ones from normal romcom series, and I haven't included the ones I didn't watched or didn't like... This was for only these two years.

So to put it simply- For every Sora no Otoshimono and SEKIREI you show me, I've got 6 to 8 other shows with strong fighting male leads to counter that.

Last edited by Brimstone; 2011-11-26 at 05:32.
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Old 2011-11-26, 05:31   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
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Not this shit again
[list follows]
Interestingly (or as expected?), a lot (but not all of course) of the shows in that list are based on shounen light novels. That said, I'm not sure the original point was that there aren't shows with strong male protagonists these days, but more like there seem (to him at least) to be an increasing amount of shows that don't have them. Whether it's true or not, I do think that if you have tastes that don't match the current trends the most important thing becomes knowing what to be on the lookout for (since you can't bank on popularity alone to help you find it).
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Old 2011-11-26, 05:38   Link #79
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Interestingly (or as expected?), a lot (but not all of course) of the shows in that list are based on shounen light novels. That said, I'm not sure the original point was that there aren't shows with strong male protagonists these days, but more like there seem (to him at least) to be an increasing amount of shows that don't. I do think, if you have tastes that don't match the current trends, the most important thing becomes knowing what to be on the lookout for (since you can't bank on popularity alone to help you find it).

It's not only him, every time there's a new romcom series, or rather any series with a young male protagonist, somehow everyone acts like there wasn't any likable guy from the previous season or the one before that -_-

If anything, the changes from the past is that there are more action heroes in Romcom series now than their were before in the old days. In those 'normal' Romcom series almost all of the lead protagonist have an agreeable personality to a fair share of the viewers watching it and even though there's no fighting, they would still have 2-3 GAR moments on screen.

(Btw, I'm not exactly sure why you've pointed out a number of them were from Light Novels adaptation Is that a good or bad thing?)
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Old 2011-11-26, 05:48   Link #80
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(Btw, I'm not exactly sure why you've pointed out a number of them were from Light Novels adaptation Is that a good or bad thing?)
Well, it's more an observation. That they're mostly shounen works as opposed to seinen tied back to the post I made before. But as far as the overall "has anime changed" point, certainly light novels are a large source of content now that didn't exist to nearly the same scale in the past. So yeah, just an observation; it's neither good nor bad.
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