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Old 2011-11-26, 06:25   Link #81
Sheba
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I never liked Masaki Tenchi. Someone supposed to be normal and loser at first, and is somehow SPESSHUL and a royal. And then you find out he is supposed to be the autor avatar. Please... I feel like punching some kittens now.

I'd rather have some Kyon. Totally ordinary. And nothing else.
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Old 2011-11-26, 07:22   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
(Btw, I'm not exactly sure why you've pointed out a number of them were from Light Novels adaptation Is that a good or bad thing?)
Sourcing from anything other than Japanese comics? It's more efficient. I've been waiting forever for a sequel to Saki.

Novels as source material -- y'can get a whole lot of story in a significantly shorter amount of time.
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:03   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
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Not this shit again
I don't think you're getting his point. His point is not that there's no strong fighters amongst the main male protagonists of modern harem anime shows, but rather that you don't have many modern harem anime shows where the male lead is the physically strongest and/or most powerful protagonist. Compare most modern harem anime shows to Ranma . The difference is rather stark.

With this in mind, let's go through your list here...


Fall Season 2011

C -C Cube- : Haruaki Yachi (Decent fighter) ... From what I saw, Fear is more powerful.
Shakugan no Shana : Sakai Yuji (Ace-in-the-hole) ... First two seasons, Shana was more powerful. Also, Love Triangle does not equal Harem, imo. That would rule out the first season as a harem, and make other seasons borderline harem at best.
Ben-To : You Satou (Strong fighter) ... From what I saw, all the top fighters are other cast members
Persona 4: Narukami Yuu (MVP) ... This didn't really give me much of a harem vibe. I watched five episodes of it, IIRC. However, Yuu is the strongest protagonist in this I think.


Summer Season 2011

Nurarihyon no Mago Sennen Makyou : Nura Rikou (Strong fighter to MVP) - Not familiar.
Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu Ni! : Yoshii Akihisa (reliable Idiot) - IIRC, the top fighters were other cast members.
Kami-sama no Memo-chou : Fujishima Narumi (reliable Idiot) - Don't know if I'd classify this as a harem, really. Also, strongest fighters are secondary male cast members.
Itsuka Tenma no Kuro Usagi : Kurogane Taito (Decent fighter, or was it Ace-in-the-hole?) - Not familiar.


Spring Season 2011

Hidan no Aria: Tohyama Kinji (Decent fighter to MVP) - Aria was stronger (usually)
DOG DAYS: Izumi Shinku (MVP) - I'll give you this one. However, the harem aspect wasn't that prominent in it from what I can remember.
Ao no Exorcist: Okumura Rin (MVP) - IIRC, wasn't this a male-dominated cast? So I'm not sure I'd call it a harem (i.e. one central male, several females all interested in him).


Winter Season 2011

Kore wa Zombie Desu ka?: Aikawa Ayumu (Decent Fighter) - Never got into this show long enough to really comment on it.
IS - Infinite Stratos: Orimura Ichika (Ace-in-the-hole) - Ichika tended to get overwhelmed in direct competition with his harem members. Still, this is pretty close, I'll grant you.


Fall Season 2010

STAR DRIVER Kagayaki no Takuto: Tsunashi Takuto (MVP) - This may technically be a harem, but that element is 'buried' pretty heavily under campy mecha action and general fabulousness. I mean, it would be like classifying Code Geass as a harem. Sure, technically it is, but it's a far cry from something like Tenchi Muyo! or Ranma
To Aru Majutsu no Index II: Kamijou Touma (Ace-in-the-hole) - I never got much into this. From what I've read, though, Touma is pretty badass. I'll be generous and give you this one.


Summer Season 2010 - I was pretty displeased with Summer 2010 anime, so I can't comment on any of this, admittedly.


Spring Season 2010

Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou: Sai Akuto (MVP) - Yeah, Sai is probably the most powerful protagonist in his show.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So of your list, most either are borderline harem at best, or don't meet the "strongest/most powerful protagonist" criteria.


Also, when some viewers accuse harem anime male leads of being "weak", they don't mean in a physical sense, but rather in the sense of how much they're willing to stand up for themselves with a general "take no crap" attitude. You Satou, for example, is a good fighter, but the dude puts up with incredible amounts of crap.

Basically, I think some people would like to see more badasses in the role of harem anime male lead. Some people would like to see the return of a Ranma Saotome (Ranma was the gateway anime for a lot of anime fans that first became anime fans in the 90s).

To fully get where critics of modern harem anime male leads are coming from, I really would encourage people to watch Ranma .
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:17   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't think you're getting his point. His point is not that there's no strong fighters in modern harem anime shows, but rather that you don't have many modern harem anime shows where the male lead is the physically strongest and/or most powerful protagonist. Compare most modern harem anime shows to Ranma , for example. The difference is rather stark.
No that's not what he said-

Quote:
As I said, I grew up on the action-orientated stuff of the late 90's/early 2000's, and the biggest change I've seen between now and then that is my personal hatred is... lack of a strong male lead. Granted, a lot of my shows tend to be harem shows... and they've changed a lot too. In the original harems (Tenchi, for example), sure, the girls can kick a ton of ass, but Tenchi himself was just as powerful, or as often hinted, perhaps even more so. But, it's gradually become a case of the girls do a lot of fighting (so that there is sexual fanservice galore), while the most the male lead can do is stumble into perverted situations (which further adds to the fanservice).
All he said was that they lack a strong male lead, he did not specify how strong is strong, but more importantly was his last statement about how most male leads these days can't do anything which I just pointed a crap-load that proves him wrong, regardless whether they are the strongest in the story.

Also, while his example is from a harem show, his initial statement did not specify that he was only referring to harem shows, he just said any male lead therefore it does not void any examples I give that isn't a harem show.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Also, when some viewers accuse harem anime male leads of being "weak", they don't mean in a physical sense, but rather in the sense of how much they're willing to stand up for themselves with a general "take no crap" attitude.
My position is still the same, and I recall your answer to my similar question from the Haganai thread

But I don't think just because they didn't stand up to certain abuses or unfair treatment, it automatically voids them of all the times they do show strong character.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Basically, I think some people would like to see more badasses in the role of harem anime male lead. Some people would like to see the return of a Ranma Saotome (Ranma was the gateway anime for a lot of anime fans that first became anime fans in the 90s).

To fully get where critics of modern harem anime are coming from, I really would encourage people to watch Ranma .
Now this is interesting, could you please list out all the super strong harem leads of the old days ? Could you show me how plentiful there were back then ?

(Also, last time I'd watch Ranma 1/2 on AXN, Ranma was totally Akane's little bitch )
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:17   Link #85
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Quote:
Basically, I think some people would like to see more badasses in the role of harem anime male lead. Some people would like to see the return of a Ranma Saotome (Ranma was the gateway anime for a lot of anime fans that first became anime fans in the 90s).
Is there someone that can replace Ranma Saotome in that role? I really doubt so; there's little to no recent notable material about a guy who can beat up everyone but is uninterested in love.
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:31   Link #86
Sheba
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I would not like the return of a Ranma Saotome, silent badasses like Kenshiro and Guts are more my type, thank you. Ranma's attitude was very grating on my nerves, much more than Haruhi's at her worst. I know, it is supposed to be a comedy, but imo the whole Comedic Sociopathy of Rumiko Takahashi falls short compared to stuff that happened in series like Married with Children and Malcolm in the Middle.
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:35   Link #87
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Well, Ranma's more of a slapstick kind of guy, so it's understandable why his most-preferred method of "getting physical to say something" is annoying to others ("Why can't he just settle things like a normal human?"). I kinda wonder what happens if Ranma was reintroduced in the modern world (I mean shown as a new series in recent times). Would he be welcomed like Yoh Sato or will he be stoned like a male Ume Shiraume?
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:43   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
No that's not what he said-
He heavily implied it with the "In the original harems (Tenchi, for example), sure, the girls can kick a ton of ass, but Tenchi himself was just as powerful, or as often hinted, perhaps even more so." bit.

He's clearly implying that he wants harem anime male leads that are the strongest protagonist in the show that they're in (either by himself, or "tied" with other cast members).


Quote:
All he said was that they lack a strong male lead, he did not specify how strong is strong, but more importantly was his last statement about how most male leads these days can't do anything which I just pointed a crap-load that proves him wrong, regardless whether they are the strongest in the story.
I took his last statement as being hyperbole. As hyperbole, I get where he's coming from.


Quote:
Also, while his example is from a harem show, his initial statement did not specify that he was only referring to harem shows, he just said any male lead therefore it does not void any examples I give that isn't a harem show.
I think he was focusing mostly on harem anime male leads though. That this was another implication in what he wrote, imo.


Quote:
But I don't think just because they didn't stand up to certain abuses or unfair treatment, it automatically voids them of all the times they do show strong character.
By the same token, the times that they do show strong character does not void all the times they fail to stand up to certain abuses or unfair treatment.

Many viewers, including myself, greatly dislike that failure to stand up for themselves.


Quote:
Now this is interesting, could you please list out all the super strong harem leads of the old days ? Could you show me how plentiful there were back then ?
One thing to keep in mind is that Ranma ran for seven seasons, so it alone has as much content as seven two-cour anime shows (and that's not counting OVAs and Movies). If you wanted a truly strong (in every sense of the word) harem anime male lead, Ranma Saotome provided that in abundance.

However, I'll get back to you later on these questions. I'll need to sift through some old titles first.

Quote:
(Also, last time I'd watch Ranma 1/2 on AXN, Ranma was totally Akane's little bitch )
Ranma gave as good as he got. No, not physically, but verbally he stood up for himself and was no less 'rough' towards Akane than what she was to him.

So I have to very strongly disagree with your assessment of Ranma here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Is there someone that can replace Ranma Saotome in that role? I really doubt so; there's little to no recent notable material about a guy who can beat up everyone but is uninterested in love.
And that's precisely my point. For those viewers who were introduced to harem anime through Ranma , it's quite understandable that some of them would be disappointed with a lot of the harem anime male leads out there.
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:58   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
He heavily implied it with the "In the original harems (Tenchi, for example), sure, the girls can kick a ton of ass, but Tenchi himself was just as powerful, or as often hinted, perhaps even more so." bit.

He's clearly implying that he wants harem anime male leads that are the strongest protagonist in the show that they're in (either by himself, or "tied" with other cast members).


I took his last statement as being hyperbole. As hyperbole, I get where he's coming from.


I think he was focusing mostly on harem anime male leads though. That this was another implication in what he wrote, imo.
That's alot of implications and assumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
By the same token, the times that they do show strong character does not void all the times they fail to stand up to certain abuses or unfair treatment.

Many viewers, including myself, greatly dislike that failure to stand up for themselves.
So what should we do then? Keep tabs of scores? See which side wins out? Make a list to quantify the levels of wuss or courage in each actions?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
One thing to keep in mind is that Ranma ran for seven seasons, so it alone has as much content as seven two-cour anime shows (and that's not counting OVAs and Movies). If you wanted a truly strong (in every sense of the word) harem anime male lead, Ranma Saotome provided that in abundance.
It doesn't matter, one show is one show

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
However, I'll get back to you later on these questions. I'll need to sift through some old titles first.
Can you feel my anticipation ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Ranma gave as good as he got. No, not physically, but verbally he stood up for himself and was no less 'rough' towards Akane than what she was to him.

So I have to very strongly disagree with your assessment of Ranma here.
Funny, must have missed that part... Oh well...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And that's precisely my point. For those viewers who were introduced to harem anime through Ranma , it's quite understandable that some of them would be disappointed with a lot of the harem anime male leads out there.
I'm pretty sure when you ask someone their first harem anime experience Ranma 1/2 don't usually jump to mind...
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Old 2011-11-26, 10:07   Link #90
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Usually, it is Tenchi Muyo, Ah My Goddess if you want to stretch the term really far, or Love Hina.
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Old 2011-11-26, 10:15   Link #91
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Usually, it is Tenchi Muyo, Ah My Goddess if you want to stretch the term really far, or Love Hina.
I'm pretty sure they didn't set the bar that high
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Old 2011-11-26, 10:21   Link #92
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  1. The perceived shift from plot-driven shows to character-driven shows? (from action/sci-fi/fantasy towards "slice-of-life"?)
  2. The perceived shift from shows targeted at "all ages" to shows targeted at male 20-somethings (otaku)?
  3. The perceived lack of substance in "modern shows" compared to their "classic" pedigree?
  4. The perceived increase in quantity or popularity of shows you dislike vs. shows you like? (Or the perceived increase in certain elements within genres of shows you liked in the past?)
  5. The perceived shift from mature-looking "adult" female characters to younger-looking "childish" ones (and the character qualities that correspond to that appearance)?
  6. The perceived increase in the amount of sexually-suggestive (or explicit?) material (whether featuring younger-looking characters or not)?

This is a more interesting discussion then the debate over "moe". I like some "moe" but don't care for what I think of as "bad moe". Since I first started watching anime with Starblazers (Space Battleship Yamato) back in the eighties I think I've seen a lot of of these changes.

1: Personally I'm one of those people who prefer a show to have both plot and characterization. Still sometimes a show that focuses on one is interesting. It's not new for there to be character driven shows. Thought they tended to have some plot going on in the background. However, there does seem to have been a shift towards more "plot-less" shows. In the past a character driven show was something like Ranma 1/2. Yeah it's character driven, but there was a plot device driving things. A show with no plot at all might have existed before, but not anywhere the numbers today.

It's interesting to me that this seems to have started with Haruhi, a show that was both plot driven and character driven. Yet the character driven side is what got copied. It's not a bad thing to me. I like character driven shows. And slice-of-life can be calming and peaceful to watch. However, the increasing number of them, (with the inevitable decrease in execution quality), while the total number of anime shows decline, that can be very frustrating to someone who wants to watch shows with plot.

2: I think the shift towards (a specific subtype) otaku targeted shows is the main frustration. Not so much away from "all ages", although the lack of such shows frustrate me, I have to admit I don't think they were ever very common. The shift is away from shows that spoke to the entire human condition such as Starblazers (epic struggle to survive, nuclear war), Maison Ikkoku (grief and romance), Touch (more grief and romance with a bit of guilt thrown in), Evangelion (isolation and loneliness), even Ranma 1/2 addressed questions of morality and honor underneath all the slapstick.

It's similar to the frustration felt towards Mecha when Mecha targeted shows dominated anime. You always feel frustrated when yet another show comes out that is targeted towards some narrow fanbase, diverting resources away from shows you want to see. Additionally, I think the current "otaku" targeted shows are extremely insulting towards many anime fans. Really? All anime fans are hormonal teenage boys who think about nothing but girls and sex, yet are lonely shunned and 40 year-old virgins as well? At least Mecha implied we where all engineering and physics geeks.

3: This contributes to the complaints of the lack of substance. I don't think that poorly executed shows are any less common then they are now, but it one thing to watch a poorly executed show that lacks substance, but at least has the form that you like. It's another when a form that you don't like is dominating the anime world, and most of them are poorly executed shows without any substance as well.

4: Worse, unlike Mecha, these "otaku" appeals (ie what most moe critics think of as moe) can easily be inserted into otherwise enjoyable and interesting shows. It's so easy to slip in a swimsuit episode, or some other event that makes these appeals. When they fit with the actual show premise it's fine, but too often they are treated as breaks from the actual plot and an excuse to show off the girls like sex objects. Nothing happens that matters to anything, and the incident is never mentioned again. It's like someone put crap in your rice bowl, and tried to convince you it's chocolate sprinkles.

Worst of all is when you stumble onto a show premise that intrigues only to discover it's been mutated into an "bad moe" vehicle. Especially when you missed the warning signs:

"What? A show with anthropomorphic representations of WWII aces and their aircraft? Fighting aliens? Ha! This I got to check out. Wait... Why are they all girls? And why aren't they wearing any pants?! No! No! What did they do to my mental image of Chuck Yeager?! No! My eyes! My eyes! Unsee! Unsee!" (Paraphrased from a forum post I saw that warned me to stay away from Strike Witches).

Poor Chuck Yeager...

5: Well, at least he wasn't turned into a loli. I would say that the increasing fascination with the sexualization of young girls is disturbing. And the imouto (little sister) craze as well. Maybe this is because I have younger sisters, but the way these relationships are depicted are extremely disturbing to me.

Oh I don't mind a little innocent flirting- it's actually pretty normal for young girls to "practice" on their fathers and older brothers. But not in a sexual manner. I mean, I don't mind a close brother sister relationship, but not this thing of having the hots for each other. That's just not how a sibling relationship really is. And it's freaky. Big big turn off for me. And of course they stick it into about every show they can now.

6: Fanservice is a hard one to measure. On the one hand the amount of casual nudity dropped quite a bit. Compare Ranma 1/2 or even Evangelion to today. On the other hand fanservice over the last few years is getting ever more daring, without ever actually showing things (that's preserved for the Blu-ray now). It's like they're technical virgins or something, and it's a turn off. I think I'd prefer showing Ranma 1/2 to my mother then most of today's fanservice laded shows, even the TV censored version.

Fanservice has also gotten a lot more stupid then it used to be. I mean before it was usually something going on in the background (ie watch the first episode of Maison Ikkoku) or a natural part of the plot (Ranma 1/2). Now it's like: Panty Shot! Why? Because.... PANTIES!!!

Sum up: Insulting. Lazy. Gratuitous. Creepy. Inserted into shows I want to watch and would like to be able to show my girlfriend without her thinking I'm some kind of pervert.
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Old 2011-11-26, 10:29   Link #93
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
I'm pretty sure they didn't set the bar that high
Yeah, really. I really never understood why those who reviewed Ranma 1/2, like that Superhero of Anime Critics, talked about how the relationship between Akane and Ranma felt "so true and sincere". If I wanted to name a good romantic development from vintage series, it is Kimagure Orange Road and Maison Ikkoku, but those are not harem. Love Hina, the anime, just drifted toward more "bizarre" stuff toward the end, and iirc did not exactly solve the romance between Naru and Keitaro. I am strictly speaking about the anime here. A criticism I'll hold against those "Grumpy Old Men" is that when they mourns the decline of anime when they got much better stuff with Sailor Moon or Ranma 1/2, I tended to call them out on it as in that the animated series were not stellar and that the manga are much superior. Then, guess what happens? "Oh yeah I meant Sailor Moon/Ranma 1/2 the manga!" Ok, guys, you talked about anime not manga, make up your mind folks, and admit that you viewed those series through strange colored nostalgia goggles.
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Old 2011-11-26, 10:33   Link #94
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This thread (and the picture above) prompted me to read this:
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/118...Episode-26/0/?

In just about a few minutes of Eva slice-of-life, a historical turning point was created.


I thought this was the most interesting idea in that thread:

Quote:
I think it's more likely that Moe is the result of Eva tramautizing a generation of viewers who completely failed to understand the implications of the series' message and thus retreated even deeper into otakudom. The plot so completely broke their minds with a truth they weren't willing to accept that all they could say in response is "what the world really needs are endless derivative variations of Asuka and Rei doing cute things without all that emotional trauma making viewers uncomfortable."
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Old 2011-11-26, 11:29   Link #95
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To say only "moe" shows aim to attract otaku yen from the beginning is so off the mark, it makes me want to bail out of this discussion. Like I said in the other thread, it's not moe girls that are at fault here, it's the checklist mentality associated with these otaku shows. At the very least, Bakemonogatari, Railgun, Qwaser, and especially Angel Beats! have been made with this principle in mind.

I should say here that I actually like Bakemonogatari because it turned out better than the checklist it started out with, but even this can't go by the natural flow of things, it being that, in general, NOBODY ELSE OTHER THAN OTAKU BUY LATE NIGHT TV ANIME.
Is that really a matter of content or marketing? I mean, Ika Musume is a late night anime, but it would've fit in the Saturday morning lineup of any American network in the '80s.
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Old 2011-11-26, 13:39   Link #96
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Sum up: Insulting. Lazy. Gratuitous. Creepy. Inserted into shows I want to watch and would like to be able to show my girlfriend without her thinking I'm some kind of pervert.
Your entire post was interesting, though I'm not going to respond to each point. (I don't totally agree with all the arguments, but I think I see where you're coming from.)

On the one hand, I understand the basic complaint that there are shows with interesting premises but are presented in such a way that deliberately limits or "pigeonholes" their appeal.

That being said, if you think of late-night anime as largely replacing the role of OVAs in the 80s/90s, then I think it sort of makes more sense why it is that way. These are shows that would never have been green-lit if they had to air in prime-time or morning time blocks (and so had to appeal to a much wider audience). In a sense, I guess you might even say these are shows that sometimes deliberately flaunt their hyper-focus on their target audience to the exclusion of others (and those within that target group may feel rewarded by that, since it provides something they can't find elsewhere).

With that being your criteria, I can't help but think you'd almost be better off to just ignore almost all late-night anime and treat it like the OVA market of old (obscure and only followed by hardcore fans). It's funny because on sites like these all anime gets merged into this giant mega list as if they're all the same just because they're all "Japanese animated TV shows", but I think most of Japan remains rather blissfully unaware of all the stuff that airs in late-night, instead familiar only with mainstream animated movies (like Ghibli), family shows that air in primetime, and maybe whatever their kids watch in the mornings. So basically, it's no different from how Americans treat cartoons; there's awareness of there being some more "adult" cartoons out there, and some of them get some popularity, but most people only pay attention to mainstream animated movies (like Disney/Pixar/Dreamworks), primetime cartoons and "Saturday morning cartoon" stuff, if anything. Most people don't necessarily judge the overall balance of cartoons being produced and argue that "the medium" needs to produce more works for a different audience, but that's sort of the equivalent of what you're saying here with anime. In other words, normally people's exposure is more naturally compartmentalized, whereas we've now broken down these natural barriers.

I think this issue probably stems from the past; in the 80s/90s, being an anime fan had certain connotations based on the limited selection that were popular and being brought over at the time. So even if you were a fairly-broad anime fan, that was still a rather small list, and wouldn't likely have included anything that would be so obscure as to fall into what currently airs as late-night TV. Most of that you could have shown to anyone, if they were interested. Nowadays, anime fans are picking from a much wider repertoire that includes basically anything from Japan, many of which were never designed to be mass-market shows in the first place. And then, having now included the niche market fare in our general selection, people then note that there are more niche shows than there used to be -- which is true because we never paid attention to the ultra-niche stuff before, as it was too obscure!

At the end of the day, I don't think there's anything preventing the players in Japan from funding more shows that air in prime-time or morning timeblocks and thus are aimed at a wider audience, if they see interest is there. While there's some overlap in terms of the companies involved, I think the late-night market largely stands aside the mainstream market, and the former isn't really cannibalizing the latter. Many of the smaller studios we have today wouldn't exist if not for the niche markets, because the market for mainstream animated TV shows just isn't that big. I think it stands to reason that if the niche really wanted to push their content towards the mainstream (as you're advocating here), more shows would simply be mainstream and not part of the niche in the first place (i.e. if they're shows your grandma would watch, they wouldn't air it at 2:00am). Not all TV anime was created equal.
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:08   Link #97
cyth
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Is that really a matter of content or marketing? I mean, Ika Musume is a late night anime, but it would've fit in the Saturday morning lineup of any American network in the '80s.
For otaku shows, it's both. Marketing has always had influence on how the shows would turn out--it did in the 80's and it does now--but I think the more depressing part is that creators these days don't just create stories, they produce them, with specific intent on them being adaptable for television or movie screens. I can name examples for light novels, manga, eroge... You don't sell big if you don't sell out, that's the simple matter of fact. In Japan, there's just a lot of competition in every creative field, and if you want someone to notice you, you'll include the tropes, you'll draw cute girls, you'll do the marketing. Now, being someone with fresh ideas and storytelling is one thing, the key is being able to communicate them well to your audience. We could say that the original work is kind of like a commercial for producers to notice you. Basically, you're catering to producers who are second or third-generation otaku themselves. This is another reason why I called the industry incestuous in the other thread.

I was hoping things would turn around with this new wave of anime originals, but it doesn't matter, the brain damage these writers sustained as children watching cartoons has the industry under a creative lockdown. Take for example this recent comment from superstar writer Okada Mari.
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AnoHana scriptwriter Mari Okada revealed in the August issue of Media Factory's monthly Da Vinci magazine that the drama included slapstick erotic elements in its original conception. As a contemplative slice-of-life story with a quieter tone, the anime's final version differs greatly from the writer's original plans. ANN
I hate her so much. Other staffers saved the day on that one, and even the final version of AnoHana was high on tropes.

I'd love to see Hollywood one day take a popular romantic comedy manga and turn it inside out, just to flaunt moe-kei worshippers with how much better it sold than its anime adaptation.
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:33   Link #98
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That being said, if you think of late-night anime as largely replacing the role of OVAs in the 80s/90s, then I think it sort of makes more sense why it is that way. These are shows that would never have been green-lit if they had to air in prime-time or morning time blocks (and so had to appeal to a much wider audience). In a sense, I guess you might even say these are shows that sometimes deliberately flaunt their hyper-focus on their target audience to the exclusion of others (and those within that target group may feel rewarded by that, since it provides something they can't find elsewhere).

With that being your criteria, I can't help but think you'd almost be better off to just ignore almost all late-night anime and treat it like the OVA market of old (obscure and only followed by hardcore fans).
I get what you are saying here & I think that is a fair comparison but then the question is where are all the mainstream titles?

Now personally as I said in another thread I can still enjoy certain late night anime despite elements I dislike if there is something I do like (and I will stand by that just because something has elements to target a niche audience does not make it automatically bad) but I do think it is sad that there seems to be less mainstream titles. And when there is with some exceptions they sell poorly.

Of course I don't think the anime industry is entirely to blame because realistically that niche audience supports the industry not the mainstream audience, so what do you expect.

However I do at least expect more shows with thought like Madoka and less shows with a check list of elements that might appeal to Otaku just to cash in.

And heck how about more shows like Tiger & Bunny with adult protagonists pretty please!
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:42   Link #99
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That actually is a good question. If the anime we tend to see is the late night stuff that replaced the OVA market from the 80s and 90s...what happened to the stuff that wasn't OVAs...or the stuff that was on in the 70s (all those Super Robot shows, Space Battleship Yamato, the various other dramas and shows) that were probably not considered OVA or late night shows?
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Old 2011-11-26, 15:05   Link #100
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I get what you are saying here & I think that is a fair comparison but then the question is where are all the mainstream titles?
I think you probably sort of answered your own question as you went on in your post, and I sort of addressed it in mine a bit as well. If there were an appetite for mainstream shows, there's certainly nothing stopping anyone from going for it. I think there's a bit of a misconception or over-simplification that late-night anime comes at the expense of mainstream works, but I don't think they're ever really in competition. When the only timeslots easily available are between midnight and 4am, you're going to make shows that appeal to the sort of audiences that will watch even in those timeslots. At other parts of the day, you have to compete with every other form of media and entertainment vying for people's attention. There certainly are a number of anime airing both in primetime and morning slots these days, but except for a few big names (like Gundam and the mainstream shounen shows), these are rarely discussed in the context of anime.

And secondly, I honestly wonder just how many of these titles there ever were at a time in the past. Is this partly just a selection bias? I mean, if you can think of 2 or 3 really good broad-appealing shows each year in the 80s/90s, you can probably still think of 2 or 3 such shows every year even now (maybe more). Yes, there's more "other stuff" so perhaps the percentage seems lower, but again you have to consider that all the late-night stuff would likely never have aired on regular TV otherwise (in many cases it's paid-for like infomercials). I honestly don't know if there's ever been a market for dozens of different mainstream-targetted anime at once, because how many people (edit to clarify: in the mainstream, not just anime fans) do you really think would choose anime over live-action drama and the other content choices available to them?

So yeah... in a strange sort of way, again because of the way that the niche is being lumped with the mainstream in our minds these days, you might even say that "shows with mainstream appeal" is actually a niche within hardcore anime fandom.
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