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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 34 28.57%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 29.41%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 37 31.09%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 10.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-28, 18:15   Link #181
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Sola seems motivated by the same thing: love for Lancer (there's a lot in the novel that portrays her as a cold, frozen person who had resigned to be a tool to her family, she had no expectations of love or freedom by her upbringing, so she was almost dead inside, then Lancer appeared and she felt alive and unfrozen for the first time) and she reacts when Kayneth began to badmouths him all the time (and Lancer stands up for him. It's hilarious). If Kayneth dies, there's a chance Lancer will follow. She is truly in love with him.

The three of them are a messy team because of their emotional motivations.

Lancer's love (loyalty) to Kayneth and mistrust on Sola's motivations, he rejects her as Master as we have seen (aka he doesn't form a contract). As much as I feel bad for him, his actions are a bit on the stupid side...

Kayneth is the same. He clearly knows he can't win like this and what she's saying is sensible, but his jealousy blinded him, like his paranoia towards Lancer. Take a look at this:

Spoiler for novel reasoning:


I don't need to bring up Sola's actions since she's been already criticized to death here. I agree her motivations were wrong, but I don't think Kayneth would have given her the seals otherwise (he childishly refused even if he understood it was logical). Because his motivations were wrong too. Wrong in the context of the war that's building around them.

It's not so black and white. The three of them are being blinded by the love triangle stuff. It's not only Sola's fault. They should have included a therapist in their team.
I agree that it's not entirely black and white (though after learning about her background from the novel I do believe the anime hasn't done a particularly good job at conveying Sola's deeper reasons), but how exactly is Kayneth being jealous supposed to be proof that he's wrong/a bad person too? Sola is quite openly infatuated with Lancer and would clearly choose him over her fiancé if given the chance. Kayneth has every reason in the world to be jealous, there's no paranoia to it.

Where Kayneth's in the wrong is in his assumptions about Lancer's character. Because as far as being jealous over a fiancée who clearly has the hots for another man goes, he's got more than enough motivation for it. Sola herself has given him said motivation by not being able to keep her hormones in check.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:18   Link #182
jonli
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Originally Posted by giorno View Post
Except Sola is forced to act like that because Kayneth is such a prick


They aren't motivated by petty reasons, they are motivated by love. Except one is doing what's sensible of someone in her position regardless of motivations, the other isn't...

now, Sola IS kind of a bitch for how she's trying to deceive lancer, but for what she did to Kayneth? She was entirely justified and it was Kayneth's own ego that forced her to go that far

BTW: Sola doesn't need Kayneth alive, in fact, as far as she was concerned, Kayneth dying would have been much better: she no longer has to marry a guy she loathes, and there are no more hindrances between her and lancer anymore. With Kayneth gone, Lancer would no longer have a master which would mean Sola would be free to make a brand new contract with him(and get 3 new command spells instead of inheriting kayneth's 2..). She saved his life because she's not a heartless bitch who revels in Kayneth's suffering, she simply wants him to get out of the way between her and lancer...

and Sola could have resisted Lancer's mole, she simply was smitten with him and choose not to resist the curse...
I think I've said this already but it seems like we're going in circles. People know that Sola's actions are sensible given her position, but they are not morally justified. She could kill Kayneth and get him out of the way, but she didn't. Does that make her a better person? No the hell it doesn't. That's saying anyone with a gun can shoot you in the face, but they didn't and that add points to their personality.

It's not the fact that she secured their chances of victor by getting Kayneth out of the way, and becoming Lancer's master that defines her as a despicable person. It's the way she did it. Sure Thess said that Kayneth was being petty because he was withholding the seals. In all honesty his protest was minimal, and you have to understand this man just woke up from a coma realizing he's a veggie and the love of his life is asking permission to abandon him for a sexier more awesome man. Besides no one here is justifying Kayneth as a person. Just because Sola's a bitch doesn't make Kayneth NOT a douche. Just because she's being horrible to a horrible person doesn't make her actions any less horrible. Pointing fingers don't make you any less guilty.
A few people pointed out that she could've shown some real genuine support, be a bit nicer to Kayneth instead of losing her patience so soon. You can use time is of the essence argument but I'm pretty sure she's got a lot of malice in her...just look at them eyes.

People aren't forgetting her position in the war, people aren't forgetting that she doesn't love Kayneth, people aren't forgetting that Kayneth is an ass too. We all know that, she's still a bitch.

I'm also surprised that she voluntarily did not resist the curse. Love at first sight? The most shallow of all love....the most sex hormone driven of them all. So she can actually resist his curse NOW? Or is this like a one time thing, the second she sees the mole she gets it.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:21   Link #183
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post

I'm also surprised that she voluntarily did not resist the curse. Love at first sight? The most shallow of all love....the most sex hormone driven of them all. So she can actually resist his curse NOW? Or is this like a one time thing, the second she sees the mole she gets it.
The defense is on auto. She would have to lower it deliberately to be affected by it.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:27   Link #184
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
The defense is on auto. She would have to lower it deliberately to be affected by it.
I see, so she did not NOT resist the curse. She DID resist it, but she still fell in love with him.

I mean hell, Lancer is a fucking sexy man, I'd go gay for him too. Pierce me Gae dolg (spelling?)
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:45   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
It's as you said, it's an advantage of weaponry. It's NOT battle tactics. She is hiding her sword so that people have trouble determining its length. She is cheating. And that goes against every stereotypical knight code that I know.

Would be using a gun or poison be honorable to a knight? I don't think so.

She's obviously practicing double standards when it comes to settling scores, either. She doesn't seem to have a problem interrupting Kiritsugu's duel



I don't know what you are referring to. but let's say there is a term for that

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid

And I share Kiritsugu's opinion. What if Kayneth used a command seal to force Lancer to kill Kiritsugu

..
And yet you forget Saber was wounded due Lancer's DECEPTION.
He made impression that Gae Buidhe was just a normal spear by throwing it away, and during the fight hid it beneath the dusts and rubble.
When Saber was charging at him with a full prana burst, that's when he Kicked up Gae Buidhe as a surprise attack.

Also the MAIN reason for Invisible Air was that Excalibur was TOO FAMOUS of a sword, and easily recognizable.
Since concealing the true nature of the Noble Phantasms and Identity was important even for honorable Knights, the Invisible Air was used to conceal the sword's identity.

Even someone as arrogant as Gilgamesh didn't reveal his name, unless somebody figured it out.
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:46   Link #186
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
I agree that it's not entirely black and white (though after learning about her background from the novel I do believe the anime hasn't done a particularly good job at conveying Sola's deeper reasons), but how exactly is Kayneth being jealous supposed to be proof that he's wrong/a bad person too? Sola is quite openly infatuated with Lancer and would clearly choose him over her fiancé if given the chance. Kayneth has every reason in the world to be jealous, there's no paranoia to it.
He let his jealousy cloud his judgment, focusing on his hatred/envy of Lancer rather than the fact they'll be killed off or out of the competition if he contained to hold on the seals like that.

It was pretty much the equivalent of a child's tantrum, even if he reasoned that it was logical to give them to Sola.

Sola treated him as a child, in the novels. You're right, it wasn't properly animated because it made her seen all crazy-looking, when she should have looked patronizing.

Spoiler for novel scene:


Yes, she was extreme, but he seemed out of it. Like I said, neither of them were the best people in these circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Where Kayneth's in the wrong is in his assumptions about Lancer's character. Because as far as being jealous over a fiancée who clearly has the hots for another man goes, he's got more than enough motivation for it. Sola herself has given him said motivation by not being able to keep her hormones in check.
Double standard.

If Kayneth had gotten his hormones in check, then the scene wouldn't have happened.

Lancer's actions were stupid too, even if I sympathize with this guy more than those two I openly admit it.

ETA: This fanart explains it all:

Spoiler for perfection:
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Last edited by Thess; 2011-11-28 at 19:01.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:01   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
He let his jealousy cloud his judgment, focusing on his hatred/envy of Lancer rather than the fact they'll be killed off or out of the competition if he contained to hold on the seals like that.

It was pretty much the equivalent of a child's tantrum, even if he reasoned that it was logical to give them to Sola.

Sola treated him as a child, in the novels. You're right, it wasn't properly animated because it made her seen all crazy-looking, when she should have looked patronizing.

Spoiler for novel scene:


Yes, she was extreme, but he seemed out of it. Like I said, neither of them were the best people in these circumstances.



Double standard.

If Kayneth had gotten his hormones in check, then the scene wouldn't have happened.

Lancer's actions were stupid too, even if I sympathize with this guy more than those two I openly admit it.
Except you also forgot the passage about he wants to hold on to the command seal since its all he have left as a Mage
(That was his ENTIRE PRIDE, being a powerful mage is basically what every mage at the Clock Tower lives for. Magecraft is so damn important to the mages that practically NO Mages are willing to follow the Magi Association's order after receiving a Sealing Designation [if your powers are unique enough, the Magi Association basically have the right to keep you as a prisoner or labrat to study you])
In fact, the magi obsession with their magecraft leads to one of the reasons Touko hates her sister so much.


Being suspicious of Sola is definitely not going to make the logic anymore convincing to him.

By the way, the passage you bolded out is HER IMPRESSION of what Kayneth is (and the Reader's impression of HER). Not necessarily describing Kayneth.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:08   Link #188
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Except you also forgot the passage about he wants to hold on to the command seal since its all he have left as a Mage
(That was his ENTIRE PRIDE, being a powerful mage is basically what every mage at the Clock Tower lives for. Magecraft is so damn important to the mages that practically NO Mages are willing to follow the Magi Association's order after receiving a Sealing Designation [if your powers are unique enough, the Magi Association basically have the right to keep you as a prisoner or labrat to study you])
In fact, the magi obsession with their magecraft leads to one of the reasons Touko hates her sister so much.


Being suspicious of Sola is definitely not going to make the logic anymore convincing to him.

By the way, the passage you bolded out is HER IMPRESSION of what Kayneth is (and the Reader's impression of HER). Not necessarily describing Kayneth.
I didn't forget it, I pasted it in other comments, but later on he reasons that is logical to give them to Sola after her speech, but what keeps him is his jealousy of Lancer. His insecurities because he never told him his wish and didn't believe his honor tale. He thinks Lancer has shady reasons, nothing to do with his honor of mage. Thing he could only get restored if they get the Grail (you don't believe that Sola's dad wouldn't break their engagement? He's worthless like that).

The passage I bolded is Kaneyth's impression, since that part is from HIS POV.

Hers comes later when she's seeking Lancer, while Lancer's comes last in that chapter.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:14   Link #189
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As usual Rider and Waver's antics dominated the episode,
Sola, Lancer and Kayneth... as the saying goes, being Lancer is suffering. The sad part is I'm sure that Lancer realizes that it's going the same way as before, but he can't do a thing about it.
steal king's daughter in the past and now it's try to rob his master's women, now I start to understand why they call this power a curse...

and Sola, did she's realize it? by take command spell as lancer master, Kiritsugu will be coming for her next as he want lancer disappear ASAP. Kiritsugu is like freaky assassin with his info network find her is simple matter of time.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:17   Link #190
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steal king's daughter in the past and now it's try to rob his master's women, now I start to understand why they call this power a curse...

and Sola, did she's realize it? by take command spell as lancer master, Kiritsugu will be coming for her next as he want lancer disappear ASAP. Kiritsugu is like freaky assassin with his info network find her is simple matter of time.
Kiritsugu already attempted against her life (the hotel bombing incident).
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:17   Link #191
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I didn't forget it, I pasted it in other comments, but later on he reasons that is logical to give them to Sola after her speech, but what keeps him is his jealousy of Lancer. His insecurities because he never told him his wish and didn't believe his honor tale. He thinks Lancer has shady reasons, nothing to do with his honor of mage. Thing he could only get restored if they get the Grail (you don't believe that Sola's dad wouldn't break their engagement? He's worthless like that).

The passage I bolded is Kaneyth's impression, since that part is from HIS POV.

Hers comes later when she's seeking Lancer, while Lancer's comes last in that chapter.
The pride of a Mage still counts, which makes a total of THREE reasons he doesn't want to give up the command seal.

and no, the passage you bolded is written in THIRD person, with no indication that was Kayneth's though. The entire book was written in Third Person
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:33   Link #192
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The pride of a Mage still counts, which makes a total of THREE reasons he doesn't want to give up the command seal.

and no, the passage you bolded is written in THIRD person, with no indication that was Kayneth's though. The entire book was written in Third Person
The pride of the magus was just mentioned first and he caved immediately after Sola gave him logical reasons why thsi is better. He didn't think about it again.

His real reason behind it is his inadequacy as a man in Sola's eyes and his paranoia to stop "Lancer's betrayal" (which relates to the same thing: his jealousy).

The entire passage gave introspection to Kayneth's reasoning, yes it's third person, but it's not omniscient third person POV (aka it's NOT Sola's view), but close to Alternating person view. Yes, it was written in third person, but we saw through his POV and not hers.

The cut later is on Sola's introspection (it describes her feelings and thoughts rather than external reactions).

To end in Lancer's POV of things, that easily describes his thoughts and feelings.

The three character are flawed and made good and poor choices.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:38   Link #193
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He let his jealousy cloud his judgment, focusing on his hatred/envy of Lancer rather than the fact they'll be killed off or out of the competition if he contained to hold on the seals like that.
You mean he focused on his genuine feelings for his future wife, on the fact that she was clearly having thoughts of being unfaithful and on how to maintain the stability of their union, rather than on a competition (which one can quit safely if need be by appealing to the church btw)? That's supposed to make him a "wrong" or "bad" human being now? That's an interesting moral code you've got there.

Quote:
It was pretty much the equivalent of a child's tantrum, even if he reasoned that it was logical to give them to Sola.
Except children don't generally wake up crippled for life after having gone through unbearable amounts of pain and having lost everything they'd devoted their entire lives to. But wait... that was the case for Kayneth, wasn't it? Nobody can be expected to be in their right state of mind right after waking up from an experience like that. Yet his fiance, a person you usually expect to be supportive in such times of need, doesn't waste any time trying to get his only source of power left off his hands (clearly not to win the war or to fight for survival but simply because it'll allow her to get closer to her shallow crush) and because he's understandably reluctant to do it, after her having asked only once, she begins mentally and physically torturing him literally less than a minute later? No matter how you spin it, there's just no comparison between the two's actions.

Quote:
Double standard.

If Kayneth had gotten his hormones in check, then the scene wouldn't have happened.
Horrible analogy.

You mean his "hormones" for his fiance? Yeah, what a vulgar bastard, acting out on his feelings for his future wife. Totally the same as Sola and her acting out on her feelings for the first handsome stranger that comes her way while already betrothed to Kayneth.

Last edited by Vicious108; 2011-11-28 at 19:54.
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Old 2011-11-28, 19:44   Link #194
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The pride of the magus was just mentioned first and he caved immediately after Sola gave him logical reasons why thsi is better. He didn't think about it again.
The pride of a Magus was still on his mind, as proved by his later actions (warped? yes, but the pride was still there). Its seriously not just jealousy being the reason, it was a combination of all these factors.
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Old 2011-11-28, 20:43   Link #195
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Hey guys, Is Fate Zero going to end soon? So far they are on Volume 2 - The Mad Feast of Kings ACT - 8

We have two more volumes and that's it, so I guess this anime will have the total of 20 - 24 episodes.

According to this: http://baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Fate/Zero
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Old 2011-11-28, 20:48   Link #196
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Never read the novels, but if there are 4 volumes and the 9th episode (out of 24) is close to the end of the second volume, sounds about right
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Old 2011-11-28, 21:00   Link #197
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You mean he focused on his genuine feelings for his future wife, on the fact that she was clearly having thoughts of being unfaithful and on how to maintain the stability of their union, rather than on a competition (which one can quit safely if need be by appealing to the church btw)? That's supposed to make him a "wrong" or "bad" human being now? That's an interesting moral code you've got there.
actually, in context...yes, that kinda does make him not the best of guys: what he's doing is basically forcing the person he loves to lead an unhappy life, as a literal political tool to make him even more powerful at the clock tower, while stomping all over her feelings and wishes...

Quote:
Except children don't generally wake up crippled for life after having gone through unbearable amounts of pain and having lost everything they'd devoted their entire lives to. But wait... that was the case for Kayneth, wasn't it? Nobody can be expected to be in their right state of mind right after waking up from an experience like that. Yet his fiance, a person you usually expect to be supportive in such times of need, doesn't waste any time trying to get his only source of power left off his hands
magi =/= normal humans. What Sola does there is what pretty much any other magus, including Kayneth himself, would have done in that situation... Kayneth in fact acknowledges that she's doing the right thing...

Quote:
(clearly not to win the war or to fight for survival but simply because it'll allow her to get closer to her shallow crush)
Except it's not a shallow crush. Sola is in love with Lancer. In fact, she may be more in love with Lancer than Kayneth is with Sola...


Quote:
You mean his "hormones" for his fiance? Yeah, what a vulgar bastard, acting out on his feelings for his future wife. Totally the same as Sola and her acting out on her feelings for the first handsome stranger that comes her way while already betrothed to Kayneth.
Yeah, what a vulgar bastard she is, acting out on her own feelings for the first person she ever loved and who made her feel happiness in her life, rather than keeping those feelings bottled up like she's been forced to do her whole life and keep living a life of unhappiness as a tool with a guy she is being forced to marry and whom she loathes...
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Old 2011-11-28, 21:16   Link #198
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magi =/= normal humans. What Sola does there is what pretty much any other magus, including Kayneth himself, would have done in that situation... Kayneth in fact acknowledges that she's doing the right thing...
Quote:
Yeah, what a vulgar bastard she is, acting out on her own feelings for the first person she ever loved and who made her feel happiness in her life, rather than keeping those feelings bottled up like she's been forced to do her whole life and keep living a life of unhappiness as a tool with a guy she is being forced to marry and whom she loathes...
Aren't you using double-standard within one post? In the first quote you defend her with her status as magi. In the second you defend her with her status as normal loving woman.

At best you can say Sola's actions are reasonable from her point of view, but being reasonable alone does not make her actions justified. Her threat to Kayneth is unacceptable from a moral point of view.
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Old 2011-11-28, 21:23   Link #199
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I'm assuming that they will extend the episodes a little bit and they will come up with 20 or 24 episodes. I hope they will not come up with 12-13 episodes of course .

As I said so far they are on Volume 2 ACT 8 and this is the 9th episode
There are 4 Volumes which basically means that if everything continues in the same way when they reach 18th episode we will be very close to the end.
Eventually, they will extend the episodes a little bit which I assume that they will make like 4 more episodes and that's all.

I really want to watch this anime for at least two months


Edit: I Checked and It looks like we'll enjoy 4 more episodes of Fate Zero and then we will wait until April when Fate Zero 2 starts, so yeah the total of episodes will be like 24-25, but they will be in 2 season, so each of them will have like 12 or 13 episodes.

Last edited by Marik; 2011-11-28 at 21:35.
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Old 2011-11-28, 21:39   Link #200
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You mean he focused on his genuine feelings for his future wife, on the fact that she was clearly having thoughts of being unfaithful and on how to maintain the stability of their union, rather than on a competition (which one can quit safely if need be by appealing to the church btw)? That's supposed to make him a "wrong" or "bad" human being now? That's an interesting moral code you've got there.
They aren't 'normal' human beings. They are magi who certainly don't abide at the same moral code that normal people do... They are messed up. If they were normal human beings, Sola wouldn't even marrying this guy at all.

If they quit, Lancer is gone (have you forgotten this small detail?). Sola loves Lancer. Like hell she wants him to die. Which yes, is irrational of her to feel this way as a tool of a magi family. Tsk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Except children don't generally wake up crippled for life after having gone through unbearable amounts of pain and having lost everything they'd devoted their entire lives to. But wait... that was the case for Kayneth, wasn't it? Nobody can be expected to be in their right state of mind right after waking up from an experience like that. Yet his fiance, a person you usually expect to be supportive in such times of need, doesn't waste any time trying to get his only source of power left off his hands (clearly not to win the war or to fight for survival but simply because it'll allow her to get closer to her shallow crush) and because he's understandably reluctant to do it, after her having asked only once, she begins mentally and physically torturing him literally less than a minute later? No matter how you spin it, there's just no comparison between the two's actions.
He shouldn't have expected 'warm' support when he knew very well the magi have ice in their blood for good reason. Sola is a cold-person, because she has cast out any expectation of happiness and regrets, until now. The only person she's warm at is Lancer.

"Shallow crush"? There you go again with baseless assumptions. Kayneth notices is not something superficial at all (if you read his observations). THIS is why it bothers him. Not because she's crushing on a handsome man, but because she has truly fallen in love. Just like Gráinne, she's staking her life and comfortable position for the sake of love. That was the point of the resemblance in their pleading eyes.

Sola's feelings for Lancer are as genuine as Kayneth's for hers. The three of them are completely dysfunctional with each others. Sola emotionally hurts Kayneth who wounds Lancer who wounds Sola. Yet somehow you qualify her motivations as "shallow crush". Like I said before, the whole twisting him only psychologically wound him, there was no physical pain at all. The whole scene was to portray how horrifyingly unrequited everyone's feelings were. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Horrible analogy.

You mean his "hormones" for his fiance? Yeah, what a vulgar bastard, acting out on his feelings for his future wife. Totally the same as Sola and her acting out on her feelings for the first handsome stranger that comes her way while already betrothed to Kayneth.
They aren't marrying out of love. But because of powerful bloodlines. It's a political arrangement. Are the Matous adopting Sakura out of love? Sakura and Sola are political pawns. His feelings are a bonus, for him. Nothing else.

Yes, it's the same. His irrational jealousy turned him against a servant, who he should trust in this situation (The WAR, hello). Like her irrational love turned her against her fiance, who she should be a little more thoughtful about in this situation, because hey they are allies, not out of love here. Lancer's honor/wish/loyalty turned against his purpose as a Servant, by turning down Sola's mastership.

Pinning the fault on Sola is hilarious and unfair. When the three of them are a recipe for disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
The pride of a Magus was still on his mind, as proved by his later actions (warped? yes, but the pride was still there). Its seriously not just jealousy being the reason, it was a combination of all these factors.
Yes, but that was later. In that scene, the reasoning given was the whole jealousy with Lancer.

Sola's had many reasons, too. Or else she would have immediately spent a command spell to force Lancer to love her. Love was her main motivation, obviously, otherwise she wouldn't have been compared to Gráinne.

The thing is, those reasons were kind of dimmed when came to the emotional ones. Most of these traditional Magi are sorta inept with their feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Aren't you using double-standard within one post? In the first quote you defend her with her status as magi. In the second you defend her with her status as normal loving woman.

At best you can say Sola's actions are reasonable from her point of view, but being reasonable alone does not make her actions justified. Her threat to Kayneth is unacceptable from a moral point of view.
I can see what they are trying to say: Sola's entire upbringing is unacceptable from a moral point of view (aka she was raised as a tool with the sole purpose to be bargained and breed more wizards). If Kayneth did a moral choice, it wouldn't be marrying her at all. He knows she doesn't love him.

From a normal moral point of view, her threat to sever his arm is also wrong.

From a magi point of view, both are justifiable and excusable.
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Last edited by Thess; 2011-11-28 at 21:54.
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