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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 20 Rating
Perfect 10 30 46.15%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 24 36.92%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 9.23%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 3.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 3.08%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-11-27, 12:02   Link #101
Sackett
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
What about Ron Paul?


Poor Ron Paul, everyone just pretends he doesn't exist.

Yeah. I actually almost mentioned Ron Paul. Unfortunately his positions on a lot of other issues make him a less attractive candidate.

Primarily his foreign policy views. Not so much his desire to avoid war, as much as that he is isolationist. Many Tea Party members actually would like to pursue isolation- from an emotional stand point. But the practical concern is that if the US was to abandon it's treaty obligations... well what would that do to world stability? I think a lot of Tea Party members feel this would probably result in a worse world than the current one. They see America as the reluctant hero who keeps bad things from happening, but really wishes he could just go home.

Therefor Ron Paul is likely to pick up a lot of Tea Party support, but people just feel worried about actually making him President.
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Old 2011-11-27, 18:54   Link #102
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
This episode was very thought provoking and I've been thinking about it for a while. My thoughts went all over the place so I might ramble a bit, but I hope that people will read and respond. I'm interested in others thoughts.

The main theme from this episode (and has tied together a theme that's been running through all the episodes before) is the chosen vs the unchosen.

The belief is expressed that there are those that are chosen,and those that are not chosen. Those that are not chosen are tossed away like trash, while the chosen rise to power, wealth and fame. Triple H is an example of this. Compare Himari (Unchosen) to her friends (Chosen).

Whether the Child Broiler really exists in story or not is of little difference to me. The symbolism we are to take from it is the same. At some point children are given up on. They are not "chosen" and so are tossed away.

Immediately this made me think of the Japanese educational system, and the emphasis on entrance tests. The chosen few go to the elite schools, what happens to the unchosen? The ones that don't get in to the elite schools.

Additionally I've been given to understand that in Japan the most important impact on your future employment is which college you attend. Not your grades. Not how well prepared you are to preform. But which college you attend. Thus those that are "chosen" advance. What happens to the unchosen?

Maison Ikkoku is actually one of the rare shows to follow a man who is one of the unchosen. Godai got into a college so poor that even mentioning it's name makes prospective employers reject him. He can't get a job, despite being diligent and honest. There seems to be no reward for his virtues, for they are not valued, and his flaws are despised. Of course, Godai does ultimately triumph- but not by going the normal route- and he's still poor. Of course Maison Ikkoku was made during the boom years, so perhaps things are more desperate now.

Interestingly the solution of Godai in Maison Ikkoku is echoed in Penguindrum. Godai is not chosen by the world, but he is "chosen" by Kyoto (his Love Interest), and by his fellow residents at Maison Ikkoku (his nakama- even though they are abusive towards him). Essentially Godai chooses his nakama at the end. Similarly, Shouma has created a small family, in which he choose them. The world unchose Himari, but Shouma chose her. Tabuki's mother unchose him, but Momoka chose him. So on, and so on. I wonder if part of Shouma's funk right now can be explained by his sense that his parent have "unchoosen" him, (choosing Kanba instead?)

I think this aspect of being "unchosen" speaks to the condition of a lot of young Japanese who can not get permanent employment and so are reduced to eternal part-time work. Similar conditions exist through out the world right now. Spain. Italy. The Arab world. The "unchosen" young cannot find employment.

This is a much more serious condition outside of the United States. The US has a much more fluid workplace and so a part time worker does have the possibility of moving up and advancing. Becoming "chosen" even if he was "unchosen" before. Even so, it is a problem here as well. Much of the Occupy Wall Street movement is driven by college students who thought they were "chosen" and then suddenly discovered that they are not. It used to be you went to college and graduated and you got a job no problem. Not so anymore. They feel cheated.

This is also finally made clear to me the difference and similarity of the Tea Party and the Occupy movements. Both of them are furious at a system that they see as choosing winners and losers unfairly. Both bridle at the fact that there are now the "chosen" and the "unchosen".

The difference is that they have completely opposite solutions. Occupy Wall Street says that everyone should be "chosen". If a person is "unchosen" then the government should interfere to choose him. They are angry at the bailout, because why did the bankers get bailed out but not ordinary Americans. Where is my bailout?

The Tea Party thinks that no one should be chosen. Or at least, that there should be no central power that decides who is chosen and who is not. Thus the problem is the government "choosing" winners in the first place. It explains why they are so furious about the bailout of GM and the Solyndra scandal. To them the government made them "chosen". To the Tea Party the solution is to depower the government so it can't choose anyone. There also an untapped sentiment in the Tea Party that would favor breaking up the big banks (unfortunately for the Tea Party they have yet to find a politician who supports this and also supports their other more conservative views). The theory of the Tea Party is that if no one central figure is powerful enough to impose a regime of chosen and unchosen, then we will all fall back on the old way:

We are "chosen" by our family or friends or individual employer. Since the power to choose is spread out there are so many options and opportunities to be chosen that eventually most everyone will find a place. And even if one person deems you "unchosen," there is always another person who will deem you "chosen".

These are radically different concepts about how to determine chosen and unchosen. I'm curious where Penguindrum will come down on it.
Wow, I had no idea the "Occupy" movement was about me (...). I was freaking out about my future employment prospects at around age 17, lol. But, by the sound of it, at least those Wall Street guys have actually finished some kind of schooling. Degrees might be close to worthless nowadays, but some kind of qualification will still be better than nothing. A little more blind faith in my case personally might've meant I wouldn't still be whacking away at college now.

Well, mentioning the scarcity of jobs and the plight of young people in finding employment the world over is really good, I think. I said it just a bit earlier, but Japan's been a deflationary economy for two decades, right? That was the second largest economy in the world (still the third). And they're still in that slump. In my view Japan really has always been a leading indicator. Their economic troubles have been a precursor to what the rest of this world will inevitably have to learn, about the natural structural limitations on what we call "growth", that exist in our reality.

(Well, on just a personal note, that's also why I find Japan so interesting. Precisely because of that backdrop, that environment, fascinating new things can occur. Economic growth and survival is about creating value--human value. Specifically, the extraordinary successes that companies like SHAFT and Nintendo have achieved with relatively limited resources is something I find truly fascinating. Now those are some "Survival Strategies" right there.)

To come specifically to the concept of the "chosen" and "unchosen". In a general sense, the context of life and death: those words carry the connotation of your fate being directly in someone else's hands. lol, sounds terrible, doesn't it. That's why, to believe that you are either one of them is pure complacency, imo. I don't believe in the "chosen", really; every truly successful person has struggled his damnedest to get where they are. Well, in the same way, I guess, to decide for yourself that someone else is "chosen" or "unchosen" might be, I think, to take away something precious.

Kenzan talks about a "frozen world". If such a thing exists, that might really be a world of "Fate", of unchanging truths, wouldn't it. But if he himself is standing up to fight against it, how is it his place to decide for others that they are "unchosen" for themselves? Alternatively, if Kenzan believes that he has been "chosen" to save the unchosen rest of the world, then, perhaps, what are his actions in the end except pushing his arrogance onto everyone else.

Going back to the politics, I think believing that being "chosen" is even possible is a fallacy in itself. Think back to the example of Japan. Fortune and prosperity now is not any guarantor of happiness in the future. The only true form of success that exists is that which you can grasp with your own hands by your own effort and ability. If now the entire global economy is stalling, then being "chosen" by Harvard or Wall Street is not any guarantee of security. Giants you thought could never fall, may very well fall, and fall hard. There is no such thing as "safety", so you must live, being prepared for inescapable sacrifice.

Insofar as "chosen" and "unchosen" in this story refer to a belief in or reliance on "Fate", I do think that this story will move towards scrapping such ideas altogether. However, there is one more side to the coin of the "chosen" and "unchosen" story. That is, when you make choices for yourself, and are also chosen and accepted in return by someone else. This pertains specifically to romance. That is the miracle of mutual love. I think someone posted some translated tweets or something earlier, that this is indeed one of the themes Ikuhara wants to portray in this story.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-11-27 at 19:12.
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Old 2011-11-27, 20:02   Link #103
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
To come specifically to the concept of the "chosen" and "unchosen". In a general sense, the context of life and death: those words carry the connotation of your fate being directly in someone else's hands. lol, sounds terrible, doesn't it. That's why, to believe that you are either one of them is pure complacency, imo. I don't believe in the "chosen", really; every truly successful person has struggled his damnedest to get where they are. Well, in the same way, I guess, to decide for yourself that someone else is "chosen" or "unchosen" might be, I think, to take away something precious.
This. There's something very misguided about this belief of "chosen and unchosen" that both Kenzan and Himari talk about. And I agree the story will probably scrap these ideas altogether at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Insofar as "chosen" and "unchosen" in this story refer to a belief in or reliance on "Fate", I do think that this story will move towards scrapping such ideas altogether. However, there is one more side to the coin of the "chosen" and "unchosen" story. That is, when you make choices for yourself, and are also chosen and accepted in return by someone else. This pertains specifically to romance. That is the miracle of mutual love. I think someone posted some translated tweets or something earlier, that this is indeed one of the themes Ikuhara wants to portray in this story.
That would be me.

Anyway, I can see that on one hand we have various example of people who have lost hope and their self-worth. You could say they decided they were "unchosen" on their own, which in itself highlights the fallacy in such belief. Examples of this are Tabuki, Yuri, and also Himari. Now, by saving little Himari, Shouma sort of validates her misguided point of view. He "chooses" her, and so she ends up ascribing her entire self-worth to him.

I think that’s why she tells Sanetoshi she doesn't want to “chase”. She knows if she does, there’s a chance she won’t get the "fruit". Basically, she knows that if she chases after Shouma, there’s chance she might lose him, and she’s dead afraid of that because Shouma’s the only thing that gives meaning to her life.

It’s interesting how Ringo provides a very stark contrast to Himari’s misguided logic. Shouma risked his life for Ringo, but it’s not like she was “chosen” or anything. Yet this experience alone inspired her to pull herself together and become stronger on her own. Unlike Himari, Ringo, as she is now, doesn't need external validation, she’s her own person, or to use your own words: her fate is in her own hands. She might decide to chase after Shouma (maybe she's already doing it) but if he doesn't "choose" her, she will do as she said: "accept that fate and become stronger".

Now, in now way "accepting fate" means no to fight for what you want. This is clear to me now. But if you do fight, there's alway only two possible outcomes: you either win or lose. If you lose, "accepting fate" means not being a sore loser, but rather use the experience to "become stronger".

On that context, being "chosen" (romantically speaking) might be a miracle, but only provided you are already your own person. Otherwise we're in Tabuki (and possibly Himari) territory all over again.
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Old 2011-11-27, 21:19   Link #104
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I'm confused lol. But it was a fun watch, and the factory of ragequit always makes me laugh so 8/10.

It was a nice theme to pick of being chosen and not chosen. It is by some twist of fate that some of us are fortunate to be here, while many less fortunate may not have had the chance. This goes along with the show's concept of "destiny". A lot of things in life are simply out of your control that determine who you are.

One man's treasure is another man's trash. Sometimes strangers to you may be just mere generic "lowlifes that will never amount to anything" but if they're someone you know and care about it completely changes.

In any case, this family is "fake". Does it really matter though. Is this relationship simply determined by cut and dry issues like genetics, or is the concept and feelings something far more important than the definition would have us believe?
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Old 2011-11-28, 07:27   Link #105
ThereminVox
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I think I just crossed the Lewis Black Threshold, which I would like to define as that moment in an Ikuhara show when you take stock of where you are, and just hear Lewis' voice in your head saying "Fuck, I don't have enough bread crumbs to get home."
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Old 2011-11-28, 07:46   Link #106
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
This. There's something very misguided about this belief of "chosen and unchosen" that both Kenzan and Himari talk about. And I agree the story will probably scrap these ideas altogether at the end.
I don't think so mate. I will be honest to tell you that you have been trying too hard to criticise Himari. Isn't this whole concept of being chosen or not, simply is just whether one depend/believe on fate/destiny or not? In that case, how serious the situation is should depends entirely on how much one devote oneself into that belief, isn't it?

Everyone always believe more or less in luck, fate,being chosen. Some may think their love life driven by fate (dreaming of meeting their "chosen one"), others may believe their whole existence was chosen to carry out one deed (positively: devote whole life for social development works; negatively: become a terrorist or mass-murderer). Criticising the whole belief is like grouping someone dreaming to win lottery (being chosen by luck) to be no different with cult leaders, pyscho murderer. Or in this case, a kid dreaming on being chosen to live a happy life (with a loved one, with a family), with a (slightly) maniac who believed he is chosen to carry out world justice



That's my first complain, at your unparalleled comparison. My second complain is how you state the mentioned belief "a misguided logic". Isn't it simply is just a case of determinism here? Hence I really can't understand the ground for your statement, other than if you are a total libertarian
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Old 2011-11-28, 17:05   Link #107
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
I will be honest to tell you that you have been trying too hard to criticise Himari.
Eh... Himari is a fictional character. Why would I waste my time "criticising" her "decisions" and "actions" if they are merely a tool to highlight certain themes? I'm just trying to figure out those themes. You're taking this way too seriously. If you don't like my posts don't read them. I'm sure there's an ignore list or something you can use.
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Old 2011-11-29, 00:34   Link #108
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It's okay if I don't know wtf is going on in this show, because I FEEL IT!!! For this episode at least. *Bawls manly tears*
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Old 2011-11-29, 17:47   Link #109
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Eh... Himari is a fictional character. Why would I waste my time "criticising" her "decisions" and "actions" if they are merely a tool to highlight certain themes? I'm just trying to figure out those themes. You're taking this way too seriously. If you don't like my posts don't read them. I'm sure there's an ignore list or something you can use.
If i don't like your posts, I probably would have put you on ignore list. But i don't think you did go too wrong with any of them yet. I just can't understand the logic under your statement, hence that's why we have a "discussion" in a forum in the first place.

The debate over a fictional character will reflect your own belief/value over certain issues, that's why we took it so serious, isn't it? There's no contest here to win
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Old 2011-11-29, 17:58   Link #110
Kazu-kun
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The debate over a fictional character will reflect your own belief/value over certain issues, that's why we took it so serious, isn't it? There's no contest here to win
It's one thing to disagree with whatever point I'm trying to get across, but you were complaining about it. That's why I said you were taking things too seriously.
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Old 2011-11-30, 05:31   Link #111
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Good to see some people remember Maison Ikkoku, that has to be my all-time favorite drama.
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Old 2011-12-01, 06:29   Link #112
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Watched this episode today, and I was literally moved to tears on Shouma and Himari's encounter when they were still children.

The touching drama scenes (Himari x Shouma), as well as the disturbing scene of children going to be cooked and cat being squashed would haunt my mind for sometime..

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