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Old 2011-11-29, 23:58   Link #2241
LoveMeKags
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Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga View Post
To be fair, whether or not she is treated like a kid or not should not hinder her from maturing, per se, or act more mature; amnesia, traumatic past or not. It's called growing up. Mentally stunted (...)? Doesn't mean that she could want to be more mature, from her own self. Alas, her 'resolutions' were badly timed, like it or not. (Movie Ranka is a great contrast, a bit too perfect, but still look at Movie!Ranka and can you still say that her growth is also stunted?)
Actually, I think you should rewatch a bit of Movie 1 for Ranka personality change just in that movie alone. Here we see the same girl as the series getting all puffed at her brother saying "no" to her singing career, stomping around town. Then, when Ranka has a flashback later in the movie of her mother saying "they're after you" when the Vajra attack, she wakes up and realizes "if they're after me, I need to do something." Her past had thus been changed for the movie. Remember that in the series, Ranka knew nothing about her parents truly (nor the incident that had taken place) until E23. So in the movie verse, this added flashback helped Ranka grow in the movie to bypass that downfall she seemed to have in the series. Her actions were led on by the fact that others (including Sheryl and Alto, who were in peril at the time) had trusted their fate in her hands.

Looking between the changes in Ranka's past for both series and movies, the series version of herself didn't learn much about herself until later, leading her around a "who am I" and "why am I here" until E23. Yes, we can all agree that falling for Grace's mind control was stupid, but because of the trauma of remembering such an event, Grace manages to take over her mind. Realize that in such a state, Ranka was helpless, and so E24 and 25 is not her fault directly but rather Grace took advantage of her just like she'd once done to Sheryl. That much was obvious by Ranka's blank eyes (which, in anime, usually state the person is unconscious/dead/soulless).. But when you look at how her past has changed between the two formats, you can easily see that her series' self lacked that resolve and bravery that her movie self found.

I personally do not see Ranka's resolutions as "badly timed" because she reflects every normal teenager with "bad decisions" and "wrong time." Had she gone out and done something stupid like gotten pregnant, I'd see that as a "bad decision." It doesn't change how I feel about the character because she seems like the most 3D character out of the whole lot: a normal teenager girl. Yes, she acts childish, but I've been to high school for four years (recently) and I can tell you a lot of girls nowadays are acting like her: childish, conceited, and selfish. Kawamori hit the nail on the head with a good character that most modern teens could relate to.

And, about the "growing up" piece; were we ever shown her growing up to distinguish this as a conversation to start? No. There is no proof that - as she grew up - she was not stunted by her trauma or lack of knowledge of who she is. Realize that Ozma had to have told Ranka something for her to already know he's not her real brother. So she had to have known something. Plus, how did she come to remember Aimo? You see where logic falls into questioning about the things we have no proof of?

Quote:
And I personally find that she was treated like a kid from the others around her because she does act like a child. Not saying that Ozma doesn't dote too much on her, but still, cause and effect also works like that, if you wanna know...
Alto did not treat her the same way. He did encourage her but when she screwed up, he forced her to stand back up again because he believed she could still do more work. Sheryl did the same. She encouraged her to stand on her own two feet and push her limits. Michael also encouraged Ranka to come out and sing her heart to the world. Yes, he was shocked that she actually did sing, but he didn't treat her like a child. Ozma basically said "you can't do anything" and pitched a fit with her. That is not how someone supports growth of the other. Only later, after he realized her resolve had become final did he support her. Nanase, throughout the whole show, failed to treat her differently than a child. Though, I do give her credit about the call to push Ranka towards Alto.

Now, wouldn't a person raised by encouragement and freedom be more independent than a person raised by lack of encouragement and sheltered? Logically speaking, yes they would have problems growing as a person. That person would become too attached to their significant other who'd raised them and wouldn't be able to step away from the curb let alone live by themselves.

We gotta remember that Catherine also states that Ozma kept putting Ranka first over her. When Ozma took Ranka into his home, she was five or so. So you have to ask, why - after at least two or three years - couldn't he make room for Catherine? Because he was being overprotective. It got so bad to the point where Catherine said "if you can't at least put me as a priority on your list, I'm leaving." Ozma was a pilot, a brother, and a lover; but because he put his other two duties above his own romance life, he lost Catherine. This just goes to show that Ranka's growth is most likely harmed by Ozma's excessive care to her over the years, making her clingy. And I think that could be proved by E3 when Ozma returns injured.

Quote:
And calling a character mentally stunted (when a great deal of people didn't even think Ranka is mentally stunted, that is) is not pointing out her flaw, but rather putting up a salt to a wound... Calling her spoiled/childish/rash/timid for the most of the early part of the series is what an example of putting up her flaw. Putting up like she is some fragile princess with disability when you don't exactly know to what extent her amnesia is, however, really made me wonder
Unfortunately, you haven't read past posts on the SnT thread. They have called her series self "mentally stunted."

It is a flaw in herself, sadly. A very small one that could change had events played out a little differently. Had the first movie been the prequel to the series and the series picked up from there, I'm sure we would've seen different growth from her because she learned more about herself and was more confident that she could do something to help, unlike her series self who was constantly going "who am I" and "why am I here" whilst others constantly protected her. She had no idea that her songs were affecting the Vajra nor did she know how to stop them. The only proof we had that she realized anything was E14 and E16. And both times, she easily started questioning why it was her they were after. Realize that in the movie, this was immediately resolved with one flashback and she went "they're after me, then I must do something." And she did. Not best planned out, but her idea was "I am the sacrifice."

Like I said above, her moods relate to modern teens nowadays. I realize that a lot of you are old time Macross fans and don't like characters like these, but if you ever walk into a high school again and look at girls around you, 90% of them are gonna act childish, spoiled, and timid, even spoiled. Hell, just take the cheerleaders into account too. Her moods aren't actually flaws but reflects of personalities of real living teens. Like I said: Kawamori gave us a 3D character with her.

I never said she's a "fragile princess." I don't wanna even go back to the topic of Cinderella here. I was stating a fact that between amnesia, trauma, and being sheltered most of her life, Ranka's growth was stunted by the people around her, even if that wasn't their intention. Sometimes we can be so heartless as to put our own ideals above our child's. In Ozma's case, he did this.

Don't think I'm bashing Ozma, I just think that some of what he did in her childhood (sheltering her from reality) really harmed her growing as an independent person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teelatsuki View Post
If it was like that, as she grow up she should have believed herself to be Ranka Lee (but again it was mentioned that she had flashbacks to her past) and mature like that, but somehow all seems writen as if her only defining character trait is her amnesia.
As I stated above, her series version didn't actually have the necessary flashbacks to help her until E23, and by then, she'd fallen into the enemy's hands.

In the movie, however, we have those necessary flashbacks in M1; thus is why she's such an amazing character by M2. So looking at that, her growth in the movies just shows that she had problems in the series due to her past.

Quote:
Since I watched the second movie it become clear to me that it was probably Ranka's fault, since movie Ranka did resemble her age trough her actions, while series Ranka was childish to the very end.
No, she didn't remain childish till the very end.

Ranka made some good choices in the series, some that helped her grow. Though some were so small that they seemed insignificant, she still showed she wanted to grow.

Some good examples are: in E4 and 5, she chose to sing, in E10, she chose to do the kiss scene, in E12, she chose to go to Galia 4 even knowing the risks and also sang before a bunch of rebels who could've killed her, in E16 and 17, she chose to go out onto the battlefield and assist the pilots in stopping the Vajra, in E21, she chose to leave Frontier upon realizing she was the cause of the attacks.

She wanted to help Frontier however she could. But she also wanted to learn about herself. And sadly, a lot of the episodes showed no proof that she ever understood her past until E23. Then she realized "it really was me who drew them." But because of the trauma of remembering such an event, Grace manages to take over her mind. Realize that in such a state, Ranka was helpless, and so E24 and 25 is not her fault directly but rather Grace took advantage of her just like she'd once done to Sheryl. That much was obvious by Ranka's blank eyes (which, in anime, usually state the person is unconscious/dead/soulless).

Quote:
I tried to blame Ozma but it didn't make much sence, since Ranka could have grow up regardless, specially since she surely had to stay alone a lot due to Ozma's job, even if she was sheltered by him, growing up alone should have made her develop some maturity, or that is my reasoning as to why I don't understand her being so childish.
Look again.

In the series verse, Ozma was overprotective of Ranka even after she became an idol. He actually wanted her to back out in E16 (or was that 17) but she persisted. Even when she made her debut, Ozma didn't want to give her up, even scared the shit out of Elmo.

In the movie verse, after Ranka becomes serious about singing, Ozma backs off. And I mean that literally. So, in the movie verse, Ranka's growth was mostly caused by the correct memories and lack of an overprotective Ozma. The only scene in which could be considered over-protectiveness (and he even showed some to Alto too) would be when he told them both to stay away from Sheryl (because she is a spy, at that time).

It is easy to tell that Ozma was the cause of Ranka's lack of growth in the series. Ranka, in the movies, made a much better entrance as a teenager or adult rather than her series self, which goes to show that without the "sheltering," she was able to mature more.

So that leaves the question: is it truly Ranka's fault that she has problems growing in maturity?




Another topic:
I've been dying to know this one: what made old and current fans alike like Ranka?

Doesn't have to be from the beginning and it doesn't have to be specifically about the movies (though I'd aim more towards the series cause I already know what a lot of people think of her movie self). Just tell me what you guys liked about Ranka in general even if you chose to pick Sheryl in the end. What made you like her in the beginning?
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Old 2011-11-30, 01:05   Link #2242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Another topic:
I've been dying to know this one: what made old and current fans alike like Ranka?
Doesn't have to be from the beginning and it doesn't have to be specifically about the movies (though I'd aim more towards the series cause I already know what a lot of people think of her movie self). Just tell me what you guys liked about Ranka in general even if you chose to pick Sheryl in the end. What made you like her in the beginning?
As I mentioned waaaaay above TL;DR I liked series Ranka's character better when I mistook her for a preteen. From that perspective, I found her immature behavior more tolerable if not understandable. I also didn't even consider that she was a viable choice for Alto's romantic affections because of this. Basically, things were much simpler before my blinders were removed.

Even now, probably due to my initial misunderstanding, I don't see Alto ever being romantically involved with Ranka in the series. However, movie-Ranka is an entirely different story. The movies really established a clear-cut triangle, requiring Alto to make a choice. Even though he ended up choosing Sheryl over Ranka, it seemed that Ranka really had a chance to win Alto's heart. Overall, I enjoyed both movies more than the series, mostly because the movies managed to polish the rough edges of the series. I'm thankful for having watched the series before watching Itsuwari no Utahime, because I was able to appreciate (and to a lesser degree, understand) the differences.
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Old 2011-11-30, 01:15   Link #2243
Tak
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Originally Posted by Falcor View Post
Even though he ended up choosing Sheryl over Ranka, it seemed that Ranka really had a chance to win Alto's heart.
I don't know. The fact that he did not even consider Ranka a second-choice despite assuming Sheryl had died failed to convince me of Ranka's potential as a viable love interest.

Certainly, she was a more appreciable character than her TV counterpart, though I never saw the possibility.

- Tak
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Old 2011-11-30, 01:33   Link #2244
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Well reading your post I remembered something in the movie that I overlooked at first. THE big difference between movie Ranka and series Ranka.

Series Ranka only had one confirmed friend and probably had talked to michael and luca trough her or Ozma, but they were more like acquaintances.

Movie Ranka was friends with Michael, Luca, Klan and Alto (and later Sheryl and one could argue that she will befriend Nana again); this makes a great difference since friends also help build confidence, something that helps one to grow up, Ranka in the movie had a memory that held her responsible of the situation and friends that helped to boost her confidence in herself (I'm pretty sure that series Ranka would have crashed even if the revelation happened as soon as in the movies).

This is what makes the great difference between them, lack of friends surely caused a great deal of Ranka's selfishness since she really didn't need to care for others before. Of course being selfish also helped with her spoiledness and childishness and VOILA series Ranka is born!

I think this is a WAY better explanation to Ranka's Childishness in the series than her amnesia. Someone else agrees?

Well the closest thing I have near me to a Ranka fan is another friend of mine that liked her despite my very vocal hate for her (she just recently watched the series).

And well in her case it was a no brainer she likes cute stuff and Ranka was cute, end of history.
(she also liked a whole lot of the cast including Sheryl.)
I asked her if she didn't have a problem with Ranka's decisions or action but I guess the experience does change from a week by week viewing than from a marathoned one.
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Old 2011-11-30, 03:17   Link #2245
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Originally Posted by teelatsuki View Post
Well reading your post I remembered something in the movie that I overlooked at first. THE big difference between movie Ranka and series Ranka.

Series Ranka only had one confirmed friend and probably had talked to michael and luca trough her or Ozma, but they were more like acquaintances.

Movie Ranka was friends with Michael, Luca, Klan and Alto (and later Sheryl and one could argue that she will befriend Nana again); this makes a great difference since friends also help build confidence, something that helps one to grow up, Ranka in the movie had a memory that held her responsible of the situation and friends that helped to boost her confidence in herself (I'm pretty sure that series Ranka would have crashed even if the revelation happened as soon as in the movies).

This is what makes the great difference between them, lack of friends surely caused a great deal of Ranka's selfishness since she really didn't need to care for others before. Of course being selfish also helped with her spoiledness and childishness and VOILA series Ranka is born!

I think this is a WAY better explanation to Ranka's Childishness in the series than her amnesia. Someone else agrees?

Well the closest thing I have near me to a Ranka fan is another friend of mine that liked her despite my very vocal hate for her (she just recently watched the series).

And well in her case it was a no brainer she likes cute stuff and Ranka was cute, end of history.
(she also liked a whole lot of the cast including Sheryl.)
I asked her if she didn't have a problem with Ranka's decisions or action but I guess the experience does change from a week by week viewing than from a marathoned one.
I agree. XD
I actually have/had two friends that were like Movie Ranka and Series Ranka, minus the amnesia part and I must say my friend that was like series Ranka was very clingy to me. >3<
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Old 2011-11-30, 10:40   Link #2246
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
What exactly are we even trying to argue here? That Ranka's amnesia shouldn't be used as an excuse for her behaviour?

I have to say I'm not keen on this topic. It seems like people are practically asking to start a confrontation.
It seems to me that Teelatsuki just threw out some Ranka-bait, and LMK chomped down on it. Hard.
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Old 2011-11-30, 13:12   Link #2247
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
It seems to me that Teelatsuki just threw out some Ranka-bait, and LMK chomped down on it. Hard.
Yes, and no, I was sincerely wondering why her amnesia was an excuse to Ranka's childness.
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Old 2011-11-30, 13:59   Link #2248
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Originally Posted by teelatsuki View Post
Yes, and no, I was sincerely wondering why her amnesia was an excuse to Ranka's childness.
Hmm...to me, that's an unanswerable question, because I disagree with the premise. I'm honestly surprised LMK went along with it and TRIED to answer.
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Old 2011-11-30, 14:02   Link #2249
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This may be helpful:

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-amnesia

Take it as what you will. I honestly don't know what LMK is trying to pull answering the question, she is hardly a qualified individual to even remotely tackle the topic.

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Last edited by Tak; 2011-11-30 at 14:20.
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Old 2011-11-30, 15:36   Link #2250
erfine
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Hmm...to me, that's an unanswerable question, because I disagree with the premise. I'm honestly surprised LMK went along with it and TRIED to answer.
Yeah I think that was what BetaJr was getting at too. LoveMyKegs should use the chance to explain why Ranka's awesome instead of going along with telatsuki's condemnation and then trying to apologize for her character.
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Old 2011-11-30, 16:00   Link #2251
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Yeah, erfina, that's exactly what I was getting at.
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Old 2011-11-30, 16:19   Link #2252
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My point was, that there was no way that was the cause, and already got a real answer to that, or at least one that makes more sense. I didn't realize that I was condemning Ranka by calling her childish, after all that was part of her characterization in the series at least.
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Old 2011-11-30, 16:57   Link #2253
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^^ Agreed. If anything, her childishness comes off as cute, if you disregard the life-threatening situations.
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Old 2011-11-30, 17:56   Link #2254
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You prolly should use "interpreted" instead of "characterized". Kawamori didn't force you to have that opinion: you made it yourself. You're using a framed question... it assumes that everyone agrees with that opinion from the start.
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Old 2011-11-30, 18:23   Link #2255
teelatsuki
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Since I have seen even Ranka fans calling her that, as well as a ton lot of other people I would say that is not up to interpretation so much as it is a fact.
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Old 2011-11-30, 18:45   Link #2256
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And now the word you're looking for is "consensus", which only substitutes for fact if you need your groupthink. Not everyone agrees with your premise, as Yot said.
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Old 2011-11-30, 19:20   Link #2257
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Originally Posted by erfine View Post
And now the word you're looking for is "consensus", which only substitutes for fact if you need your groupthink. Not everyone agrees with your premise, as Yot said.
I don't like to talk for other people but I think the premise Yot wasn't agreeing to was to blame her childishness on her amnesia not about her being childhish, well that is what it looked like to me Yot could clarify this if he wants to.

But we could cut this by simply saying that you don't agree with this general concensus that I agree with and end it for good.

fact
noun
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth.
2.something known to exist or to have happened.
3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true.
4.something said to be true or supposed to have happened.

By this definition Ranka being Childish is indeed a fact.
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Old 2011-11-30, 19:25   Link #2258
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I think even the creators would say that they were portraying her as being rather 'childish' early in the series. E.g. episode 5.

But I personally think she grows up a fair bit during the series, unlike most of the fans on this board - or so it would seem.
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Old 2011-11-30, 20:52   Link #2259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I think even the creators would say that they were portraying her as being rather 'childish' early in the series. E.g. episode 5.

But I personally think she grows up a fair bit during the series, unlike most of the fans on this board - or so it would seem.
The problem is that most of the growth she went through until episode 14 gets reversed after Gallia IV.
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Old 2011-11-30, 21:52   Link #2260
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What exactly is the argument here? Stating that Ranka acts childish isn't meant as an insult - atleast not in the context of this discussion, so there's no reason to start an all-new debate on whether or not she was childish. The original issue is whether or not Ranka's amnesia had any effect on her maturity. Tak gave a very concise answer, which Teelatsuki accepted. Issue resolved; time to move on.

I agree with Karice that Ranka did indeed mature by the end of the series; she was pretty much forced to by events beyond her control. At least both movies help "correct" (for lack of a better term) Ranka's monumental naivety immaturity and portray her as a normal teenage girl.
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