AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 34 28.57%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 29.41%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 37 31.09%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 10.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-11-30, 16:11   Link #241
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
Well, some culture still place high value in engagement and marriage regardless it is arranged or from love. Arrange marriage is also still acceptable in many cultures too.
And some cultures value love over raising and pawning children for breeding purposes and political alliances. Which is exclusively what has been Sola's entire life until now.

It's pretty explicit in the novels (in this scene) that she was raised since she was a baby as nothing but a piece of meat whose exclusive worth to be marry off someday. That was her "only use" for her life. She did not have regrets or could have ask questions or object, because she never had a fucking choice or say in anything. Therefore, reading the "omg how could she betray her would be husband*!!1" stuff here is more than a little uncomfortable.

I'm slightly annoyed the anime did not make an effort to portray this, since it's pretty explicit what was going on her head by the time when she talked to Lancer in the novels. Oh no, instead they just show us Kayneth, the guy who had everything until now, mangangst and Lancer's. Sure, nice to see their pain represented too, but it was biased against Sola who, for once in her entire life, could get something.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 16:19   Link #242
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Exactly, kind of extremely creepy that people assume that Sola should have any kind of obligation.
Let's say Joe and Bob are two very close friends and co-owners of a highly successful business. Joe has a son John who is 10 years old, and Bob has a daughter Selena who is 11 years old. The two men want their respective children to be best friends with one another as an extension of their own close friendship (and maybe in the back of their minds they hope that those children eventually form a romance together).

The two children aren't fond of being basically forced together by Joe taking his kids over to Bob's place every second weekend, and Bob taking his kids over to Joe's place ever other weekend. John and Selena both initially feel resentful over their fathers managing their lives like this, and hence they don't get off to the best of starts with one another.

However, over time, John and Selena relent to their respective father's obvious wishes for them, and they become at least cordial and reasonably friendly with one another. If asked, each would admit that the other is "a friend" to him/her.

Now, at this juncture, do John and Selena hold any kind of obligation to one another?

Granted, they were basically forced together, but they nonetheless eventually went along with it, and so I think that calls for more "obligation" than one would feel towards a complete stranger, at the very least.

It doesn't mean that either John or Selena should feel totally bound by their relationship, but whatever caused it to occur, they're now in one, and that counts for something, imo.


Now, is Kayneth and Sola comparable to my hypothetical example above? Going by the anime alone I see some similarities (Kayneth and Sola certainly seemed reasonably cordial and friendly with one another in Sola's first appearance in this anime). Maybe the novels tell a different story, and I respect that, but I'm going by the anime here.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 16:25   Link #243
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Now, is Kayneth and Sola comparable to my hypothetical example above? Going by the anime alone I see some similarities (Kayneth and Sola certainly seemed reasonably cordial and friendly with one another in Sola's first appearance in this anime). Maybe the novels tell a different story, and I respect that, but I'm going by the anime here.
Terrible analogy.

Read above what I said about Sola.

That would work if John was the one who agreed with Selena's father, as he works with him in his business, high position, in control of his life and family (he's Lord El-Melloi, he can do whatever he wants). He also happens to love her. And Selena was raised to shut as only living to marry off one day someone they choose, anything else wouldn't matter, that's her purpose in life. She's alive to marry and birth powerful magi kids. She shouldn't have expectations of anything else.

The anime should tell the same story, the only difference is that they didn't show us her POV and background (maybe in the future or included in cut scenes?).

Also Sola wasn't cordial, she was criticizing him in a passive-aggressive way. Lancer had to defend him.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 16:40   Link #244
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Terrible analogy.
Given that a few alterations made by you makes it all fit, I think it's rather harsh to call it a "terrible analogy".

I think you're being a bit one-sided here.

Sola's actions in the narrative are understandable, but Kayneth had reason to think that she's supportive of him and cares about him. If she never voices displeasure with the marriage arrangement how is he supposed to know any different, or view their fiance status as counting for nothing? And as even you admit, at least Kayneth genuinely loves her.


The point I'm making with my analogy is that it's fine to find fault in what causes a relationship to arise in the first place, but once a person in a relationship has reason to view it as a legit one, that does carry with it some significance, in my view.

If I felt that somebody else viewed me as a reliable acquaintance, friend, lover, confidant, etc... and if I go along with that person's view of me, then yeah, I'd feel some sense of obligation towards that other person. Even if we were brought together through some sort of coercion or artificial means. To me, this is just basic human decency, and it runs deeper than cultural considerations alone.


Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post

Also Sola wasn't cordial, she was criticizing him in a passive-aggressive way. Lancer had to defend him.
Her tone struck me as playful. A wife-to-be gently ribbing her husband-to-be, hoping that it'll get him to shape up a bit. You could find the same thing in numerous happy marriages.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 16:52   Link #245
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If I felt that somebody else viewed me as a reliable acquaintance, friend, lover, confidant, etc... and if I go along with that person's view of me, then yeah, I'd feel some sense of obligation towards that other person. Even if we were brought together through some sort of coercion or artificial means. To me, this is just basic human decency, and it runs deeper than cultural considerations alone.
Were you raised as a breeding tool who has no worth aside of that in society?

They are magi. They don't have human decency (exceptions aside, like Waver, who you know hates the Association ). They would have let Caster do those horrible actions to children if they hadn't been rewarded by the command seals. Why do you think Risei announced the prize?

In fact, for magi, Kayneth's right now is nothing more than dead meat. He's worth less than Sola, the spare child. Her obligation is to be engaged to a powerful magus... He's not a magus anymore.

Sola, in case you miss it the first time I said it, doesn't love anything (aside of Lancer. I'll say that she doesn't even have a sense of self-worth, which explains some of her thoughts). She doesn't feel: she's numb and cold. Because she wasn't raised as a person, she was raised as a pawn since the day she was born. For the first time in her life, she's experiencing human warmth and personal happiness. It's stated in the novels pretty clearly. That she was frozen inside until she met Lancer.

Also Kayneth knows that Sola doesn't love him. It's hilarious to think that the engagement would be broken because she objects. Look, when I say that her purpose is to marry is that if she rebels, well why she's alive for? At best, she would be given to the Association for 'research' or something.

This isn't Harry Potter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Her tone struck me as playful. A wife-to-be gently ribbing her husband-to-be, hoping that it'll get him to shape up a bit. You could find the same thing in numerous happy marriages.
No, she was being passive-aggressive, defending Lancer from Kayneth's lecture, only for Lancer to stand up for him.

All relationships are unrequited.

Speaking on this, why nobody says that Kayneth should feel gratitude to Lancer. He saved his life and yet he hates his guts. Where is his obligation and human decency?

He's just a magus.

Furthermore, Sola's desired loyalty from Lancer was also unrequited (no formal contract was established). Even if they are all allies, but their relationships fall apart. The cracks are everywhere.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

Last edited by Thess; 2011-11-30 at 17:09.
Thess is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 18:28   Link #246
Alaya
Counter Force
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
And some cultures value love over raising and pawning children for breeding purposes and political alliances. Which is exclusively what has been Sola's entire life until now.

It's pretty explicit in the novels (in this scene) that she was raised since she was a baby as nothing but a piece of meat whose exclusive worth to be marry off someday. That was her "only use" for her life. She did not have regrets or could have ask questions or object, because she never had a fucking choice or say in anything. Therefore, reading the "omg how could she betray her would be husband*!!1" stuff here is more than a little uncomfortable.

I'm slightly annoyed the anime did not make an effort to portray this, since it's pretty explicit what was going on her head by the time when she talked to Lancer in the novels. Oh no, instead they just show us Kayneth, the guy who had everything until now, mangangst and Lancer's. Sure, nice to see their pain represented too, but it was biased against Sola who, for once in her entire life, could get something.
That's why I don't judge Sola for what she did to Kayneth. She had her reason and excuses that are understandable. And that's also why I accept and understand that people would see her as cruel or unfaithful too. Each of us has their own value or view, so I think people will always view and interpret the scene differently, regardless of circumstances.
__________________
Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.

Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.
Alaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 18:34   Link #247
ElricKeyblade
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post


And what about dear Kayneth? If he loved Sola, he would let her be with Lancer and break the engagement.

Furthermore, Diarmuid's loyalty to Kayneth is also unrequited. He despises him. And yeah, it's irrational and stupid of him to not strike a contract with Sola out of it. Really idiotic. if Kayneth had found out, he would have been furious.

The three of them have unrequited affections. I don't see anyone telling the men to stop being so stupid and keep their feelings to themselves.



...Why would Sola have to be with Lancer, when Lancer doesn't even like her that way ?

Another thing is that it seems to me that you keep arguing that Sola is doing the sensible thing by taking Kayneth's command spells to continue the Holy Grail War. Yes, I agree that it was sensible of her- if that was her intention in the first place. I think it's been implied already that her main motivation for getting those command spells was to get Diarmuid's attention. Don't believe me? Try reading the novels, especially...the third one, I think. (I can't say anymore because I don't know if certain spoilers are allowed on this thread.)

And yes yes, I agree that Sola wasn't born in the most comfortable of positions in life. But think of it this way- she could've gotten far, far worse. She could've ended up with a fiancee who didn't care for her at all, and actually DID treat her like a piece of meat. But no, she ended up with someone who really did love her.

Now, I'm not saying that she was obligated to love him back, but I really, really don't like how she's forcing her feelings onto Diarmuid. All the poor guy wants to do is be able to serve his master and not have the past repeat itself. Yeah...Sola's actions DEFINITELY will end well for him. [/sarcasm]

It would be a different matter entirely- and a different argument from me- if Lancer actually DID like her back. But the fact is, he doesn't. And with those command spells attached to Sola, I'd say he's somewhat in danger of being in her position now, should she choose to force her feelings further.
__________________
ElricKeyblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 18:44   Link #248
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElricKeyblade View Post
...Why would Sola have to be with Lancer, when Lancer doesn't even like her that way ?

Another thing is that it seems to me that you keep arguing that Sola is doing the sensible thing by taking Kayneth's command spells to continue the Holy Grail War. Yes, I agree that it was sensible of her- if that was her intention in the first place. I think it's been implied already that her main motivation for getting those command spells was to get Diarmuid's attention. Don't believe me? Try reading the novels, especially...the third one, I think. (I can't say anymore because I don't know if certain spoilers are allowed on this thread.)
I did read the novels. All of them.

First, did you miss my previous points? I said there that Sola's suggestion was logical and sensible since they are in the middle of a dangerous war, but her motivations were wrong.

I said also that Kayneth's overreaction was motivated by the same illogical trail of thinking: unrequited love & magi bs upbringing.

When people are ooh poor Kayneth, he lost it all! Never stop thinking, Sola never had anything in her life - until now. Sorry, but it had to be said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElricKeyblade View Post
And yes yes, I agree that Sola wasn't born in the most comfortable of positions in life. But think of it this way- she could've gotten far, far worse. She could've ended up with a fiancee who didn't care for her at all, and actually DID treat her like a piece of meat. But no, she ended up with someone who really did love her.
Kayneth could have ended in a worse situation too. Sola could have twisted more than one finger. Or command Lancer to forget about him to love her instead. Kayneth didn't raise her either, she was broken emotionally before the engagement.

Lancer should have been thankful too! He could have ended up with a worse Master than Sola, who didn't care about his well-being at all. And treat him like a tool, like oh, Kayneth, but it's his choice too. Speaking of that, how couldn't Kayneth be thankful about his loyal servant! He could have ended up who actually badmouths him and smacks him silly! But no, he had one with unquestionable loyalty.

Does this matter? No, because it's not about to be happy with what they had in the worst circumstances, but what they want to be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElricKeyblade View Post
Now, I'm not saying that she was obligated to love him back, but I really, really don't like how she's forcing her feelings onto Diarmuid. All the poor guy wants to do is be able to serve his master and not have the past repeat itself. Yeah...Sola's actions DEFINITELY will end well for him. [/sarcasm]
How is she "forcing her feelings" right now? He's not the one engaged to Sola, is he?

And man, that Diarmuid, why is he forcing his feelings of fealty to Kayneth when they are completely unwanted.

Yeah, no. Re-read the novels if you believe her actions alone are going to unleash a happy outcome. This is what annoys me for the bashers, they're unable to realize the combined effort of Kayneth's blind jealousy/sense of loss, Sola's blind love/sense of want (and their combined disgusting magi upbring) PLUS Lancer's blind loyalty/fear of repeating the past against common sense is what together weaved into bad news.

The men are entirely blameless. I wonder why. [/sarcasm]

I only like Lancer of the trio and I think his actions to handle this are beyond idiotic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
That's why I don't judge Sola for what she did to Kayneth. She had her reason and excuses that are understandable. And that's also why I accept and understand that people would see her as cruel or unfaithful too. Each of us has their own value or view, so I think people will always view and interpret the scene differently, regardless of circumstances.
I get that. The marvelous example above is why I defend her. Even if she's one of my least favorite characters in the story (but Kayneth is so much worse).
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

Last edited by Thess; 2011-11-30 at 19:11.
Thess is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 19:10   Link #249
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
SO.... poor Maiya. She sure must be frustrated with herself now.

[/topicchange]
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 20:01   Link #250
giorno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Let's say Joe and Bob are two very close friends and co-owners of a highly successful business. Joe has a son John who is 10 years old, and Bob has a daughter Selena who is 11 years old. The two men want their respective children to be best friends with one another as an extension of their own close friendship (and maybe in the back of their minds they hope that those children eventually form a romance together).

The two children aren't fond of being basically forced together by Joe taking his kids over to Bob's place every second weekend, and Bob taking his kids over to Joe's place ever other weekend. John and Selena both initially feel resentful over their fathers managing their lives like this, and hence they don't get off to the best of starts with one another.

However, over time, John and Selena relent to their respective father's obvious wishes for them, and they become at least cordial and reasonably friendly with one another. If asked, each would admit that the other is "a friend" to him/her.
besides what Thess already said about Sola's upbringing, the biggest problem with your analogy is that for Sola, the relationship is stuck at the bolded part. Your analogy is pretty much what Kayneth thinks will happen, the problem is that they're not yet at a stage where Sola would consider him a "friend". And then she falls in love with lancer(btw, it's not clear whether Sola was only attracted by lancer physically, or developed a crush or outright fell in love at first sight, but she willingly allowed the curse to affect her. If she were in love with Kayneth, she would have resisted it, just like Irisviel did)
giorno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 21:11   Link #251
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Why do I get the feeling that similar themed debates were present when Madoka aired? Perhaps it's really Gen's signature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess
Yeah, no. Re-read the novels if you believe her actions alone are going to unleash a happy outcome. This is what annoys me for the bashers, they're unable to realize the combined effort of Kayneth's blind jealousy/sense of loss, Sola's blind love/sense of want (and their combined disgusting magi upbring) PLUS Lancer's blind loyalty/fear of repeating the past against common sense is what together weaved into bad news.
Judging by the anime alone, while I think that both Kayneth and Sola are at fault, I'm a bit more lenient towards Lancer. I mean, what do you suppose he should do? Be an "ungrateful bastard" who dumps his old master over a young chick?
__________________
erneiz_hyde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 22:21   Link #252
LunarMoon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
That's why I don't judge Sola for what she did to Kayneth. She had her reason and excuses that are understandable. And that's also why I accept and understand that people would see her as cruel or unfaithful too. Each of us has their own value or view, so I think people will always view and interpret the scene differently, regardless of circumstances.
Everyone has their reasons and excuses for what they do, and I'm sure Caster's sound very rational in some deep, dark corner of his mind. The question is whether we're willing to excuse people for those excuses and motivations. If a father kills his daughter in order to retain her honor, or if someone practices some other form of misogyny or ethnic discrimination due to cultural difference, then are we supposed to remain indifferent to it simply because that person hails from a different cultural? When does cultural relativity end and human decency begin? You can totally argue that Sola is sympathetic, but bringing up cultural relativity will only go so far. Given, this is somewhat a response to the discussion in general, and not simply to Alaya.
LunarMoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 23:12   Link #253
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 34
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
SO.... poor Maiya. She sure must be frustrated with herself now.
Nah... I bet she enjoys her mistress/toy/stress_relief/cannon_fodder/etc. status

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
[/topicchange]
Please
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-01, 03:02   Link #254
kk2extreme
Your wife is hot...
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: At your house fixing A/C
In Lancer POV, your boss' wife falls in love for you the first time, you accept it -> tragic death for you.

Now you second boss' wife falls in love for you, what do you do? Tries to stay the hell out of the way this time...
kk2extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-01, 05:34   Link #255
blue_sora
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Love triangle

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
SO.... poor Maiya. She sure must be frustrated with herself now.

[/topicchange]
You should try harder to change the topic, maybe about when will the budget will spend on Tokiomi. He hardly moves a muscle since episode 1, hopefully the next one he got to exercise his body

So this Lancer/Sola/Kayneth is getting dragged on, so I think this will the last time I address it.

What I can see mainly is about emotional vs logical. Emotional represents the human view and the logical represents the magi view.

About the arranged marriage between Kayneth and Sola, I view them both as being forced into the marriage, not only Sola. It just happens that Kayneth did fall in love with Sola, so he didn't feel forced so much. I will argue that Sola also didn't feel forced into the marriage, because she is raised for that purpose and she doesn't love anyone anyway. So before the Holy Grail War, the arranged marriage is actually mutually pleasant for both sides even if there is only one-sided love. In both human view and magi view, the marriage is actually pretty much okay. In the human view it will be equal to getting your son and daughter together because they have no significant other only that Sola's past is tragic. But in the magi view, Sola's past is normal and considered very logical.

So why we don't sympathize with Sola's past as in the human view? Because she herself doesn't feel that hers upbringing is tragic. In the novel too she doesn't express hatred of her past, only the acknowledgement of how she feel cold and then feels alive when she fell in love with Lancer. This means she is still using the magi view for her upbringing so she was okay with it. For me, this makes me feel less sympathetic to her past because if she felt alright with it then there's no problem. Of course for Sola defenders, they sympathize more with Sola's past.

Next, why we sympathize with Kayneth on this episode even if considered by the magi view he is being illogical by with holding the command seals? Because we judge him by human view. I will argue this also shows changes of Kayneth the magi to Kayneth the human. Losing his magi circuit has humanize his arrogant noble nature to as in the magi view, 'a whimpering broken child'. But in our human view we see him as 'the man that lost everything and is about to be cuckolded by his wife'. So yeah, we sympathize more with him because in the human analogy it will be like you were in an accident, wake up with a paralyzed body and your wife besides you and said, "Honey, you will never walk for the rest for your life, so will you sign this divorce papers?" So in our view he is justified acting like that, but if Sola waits a day or two Kayneth might come to his senses and give her the seals. It was her impatience that most of us view her as a bitch.

Lancer cannot be judged with the magi view because he is a human in the past with literally all his bones and muscles sung with 'HONOR AND LOYALTY!'. Like he said, he is a knight before he is a servant. True, it will be more tactically advantages if he agreed, but Saber says hello . I will say this is also a case study of master and servant (hence the title) which explored thoroughly by Gen in Fate/Zero. If one has both the command seals and provided the mana, is that person considered their master in the truest sense of the word? Both Saber and Lancer said no.

I actually has a lot more to say but I will stop at here for the moment. Feel free to argue with me .
blue_sora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-01, 06:32   Link #256
Vanish
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Vanish
What Tokiomi needs is some Morning Rescue.
Vanish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-01, 07:12   Link #257
blue_sora
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
So pre-release screenshots for episode 10 is already out:


Spoiler for Episode 10 : Rin's Adventure:
blue_sora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-01, 08:12   Link #258
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 27
Rin is going to accomplish more in a single episode than her father in nine
__________________
Mikan & Yami
Kanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-01, 13:36   Link #259
Marik
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
It's gonna be interesting
Marik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-01, 13:59   Link #260
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: U. of Pittsburgh, Previously in Mexico City.
Age: 29
ugh... fanservice of the plot kind... I just hope they don't screw it up just for the sake of pandering to the Rin fans, Fate/Zero has had an excellent run so far. A weak episode wouldn't do it justice.
Proto is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.