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View Poll Results: Penguin Drum - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 33 52.38%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 19 30.16%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 4 6.35%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 6.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 3.17%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.59%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-03, 20:10   Link #41
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Well, I don't think Kanba kept Shouma in the dark all this time only because he wanted to be the one to save Himari. I think he genuinely was protecting Shouma too.
Oh no I believe that too. To clarify what I am saying is after those harsh words (which I don't think he really meant) I want Kanba to acknowledge Shouma means something to him.
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Old 2011-12-03, 20:47   Link #42
vansonbee
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hmmm it seem Ringo gonna save Himari with the dairy and make everyone happy and dandy again...

I hope Ringo does not die and Shoma cries and forever remember her.
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Old 2011-12-03, 20:50   Link #43
Kazu-kun
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hmmm it seem Ringo gonna save Himari with the dairy and make everyone happy and dandy again...
This kids need to earn their happiness own their own. For all the "magic" going on, I seriously doubt Ikuhura would give a magical solution to their problems.
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Old 2011-12-03, 21:04   Link #44
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....

I'm getting Eva vibes from this show, starting with episode 20. Ever since last episode this has moved beyond "storytelling" into "legend" territory. This show is trying to same something meaningful. Whether it will succeed or not remains to be seen.

Considering the obvious references to Aum in Penguin Drum, and now these Eva tendancies, I found these quotes interesting:

Quote:
Takashi Murakami: I have to confess, I don't fully understand the moe sensibility.

Toshio Okada: The moe generation is mostly made up of otaku thirty-five or younger. I myself belong to the previous otaku generation, so frankly I don't understand moe.
Quote:
Toshio Okada: Otaku are bashful. They are intelligent but so bashful that they're more comfortable with children's anime than regular movies. They can shed their reserve if a serious idea is filtered through a "Made for Children" label ... At any rate, I have never seen an orientation towards the unacceptable among otaku. ... Well, then, do you mean from the mid- to late 1970s, things got progressively more unacceptable from Yamato to Gundam, and then Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind? I don't think so. An inclination for dame appears to exist because otaku have shifted to bishojo these past few years. Within this limited context, you may have a point, but veteran otaku have to disagree.

Kaichiro Morikawa: Generally speaking, I see a downward spiral. Aum Shinrikyo was influenced by Genma Wars. In the 1980s, otaku dreamt of Armageddon; they fantasized about employing supernatural powers to create a new world after the end of the world. But Aum's subway attack in 1995 thoroughly shattered the post-apocalyptic otaku dream of creating a new world in which they would become heroes. After their apocalyptic fantasies collapsed, they steadily shifted to moe. Before their Armageddon obsession, there was science fiction, which provided otaku with an alternative to the actual future. In the broadest terms, moe has replaced 'future.'
Quote:
Kaichiro Morikawa: As I said before, the 1980s-era fascination with the apocalyptic was shattered by Aum. I think moe emerged as an alternative, to fill the void.

Toshio Okada: I see. To me, Eva was all about "Since I can't do anything about changing the world, I will do something about myself." Don't you think "robot anime" is all about "trying to change the world"? Morikawa-san, you talked about the apocalyptic. One step before that is "social reform" (yo-naoshi). One of the key concepts for understanding otaku is "a child's sense of justice." The reason grown-ups are enthusiastic about Kamen Rider and the "warrior team" genre (sentai mono) is because that basic sense of justice, which we abandoned in society a long time ago, is still meaningful in the world of these TV shows. Of course, there's also the terrific monster designs and pan-chira [the fleeting display of girls' panties], but that's not enough to keep the boys interested. That basic sense of justice worked until Eva. But with Eva, it became clear that no one could save the world. And Eva complicated the whole thing, raising issues such as "Maybe I should at least save myself" and "What's wrong with me, thinking only about saving myself?" Eva marked a turning point. Whatever we discuss today, we cannot avoid Eva.
Quote:
Hiroki Azuma: Not surprisingly, Neon Genesis Evangelion, which appeared in 1995, proves important. As with Aum Shinrikyō, this work also had dual implications, straddling the Era of Fiction and the Era of Animals. This anime is a work that initially aspired to grand narrative in a very straightforward way. As the title suggests, it is an evangelical narrative of human salvation. In any event, this grand narrative broke down spectacularly in the last episode of the TV series. Moreover, what appeared at the moment of its breakdown was the world of secondary or fan production. Specifically, what appeared in the twenty-fifth and twenty-sixth episodes of the TV series Evangelion was the world of secondary production as already in circulation through the Comiket (comic market) and personal computer communications. In other words, its creators made a parody of the parody in advance. And, in their rather wonderful way, they pieced together an autocritique of their impasse.

In other words, in his effort to see this grand narrative through to the end, its director Anno Hideaki ultimately could not help but criticize the character industry, in order to preserve his status as author, as a matter of self-defense. Anno flirted with the impossible task of constructing a grand narrative in the 1990s, but in the end it proved impossible, and all that remained was Ayanami Rei as a moe kyara, that is, as an affective figure. In this respect, I think that the scene in the twenty-sixth episode of Evangelion in which Ayanami Rei appears running with bread in her mouth marks a turning point in otaku culture, the moment when the Era of Fictions became the Era of Animals, when the Era of Fictional Histories gave way to the Era of Affective Response to Characters (kyara moe). This is why Evangelion remains such an important work.
Quote:
I think it's more likely that Moe is the result of Eva tramautizing a generation of viewers who completely failed to understand the implications of the series' message and thus retreated even deeper into otakudom. The plot so completely broke their minds with a truth they weren't willing to accept that all they could say in response is "what the world really needs are endless derivative variations of Asuka and Rei doing cute things without all that emotional trauma making viewers uncomfortable."
I can't help but wonder at the significant anime originals this year that are making philosophical statements.

Penguin Drum is one.
Madoka is another.

One thing for sure, if I'm getting Eva vibes, then bad stuff is going to happen to the characters.
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Old 2011-12-03, 23:07   Link #45
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This kids need to earn their happiness own their own. For all the "magic" going on, I seriously doubt Ikuhura would give a magical solution to their problems.
I could see a Madoka style ending where someone (Shouma or Himari most likely) uses the diary to fix everything but ends up going off wherever Momoka is. Except it'd be several orders of magnitude more esoteric and require elaborate charts and frame-by-frame analyses to understand.
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Old 2011-12-03, 23:23   Link #46
Kazu-kun
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I could see a Madoka style ending where someone (Shouma or Himari most likely) uses the diary to fix everything but ends up going off wherever Momoka is.
If it comes to that it would be Himari, I think, since she's already hinted for disappearance in the OP (last shot of the OP). Besides, she's already dead, and I don't think Ikuhara would go for a "resuscitation" ending.

I still think a "no magic" ending is most likely. Maybe it's because of Utena that I think this way. You know,
Spoiler for utena:


All that considering, I wouldn't be surprised if the diary doesn't' even do what people (both the characters and the audience) think it does .
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Old 2011-12-03, 23:43   Link #47
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I am kind of conflicted with the idea of Himari dying. On one hand I think having the brothers have to accept her death would be very fitting (and fit with Night on the Galactic Railroad) but on the other hand I am wondering if there is something to do that ending with Triple H. Is that an alternate fate where Himari does not die after all?

I still think someone won't make it in the end though.
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Old 2011-12-04, 03:53   Link #48
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I have a bit of a hard time seeing Kanba and Shouma patching things up if Himari dies soon, and doesn't get resuscitated this time It's mainly for this reason that I wouldn't be surprised if Himari survives the entire anime (what Kirarakim wrote about Triple-H being another reason why).

However, I agree with Kirarakim on somebody not surviving the entire anime. This anime hints a lot at the concept of equivalent trade-offs, of positive outcomes having to be balanced out by negative outcomes (consider how Momoka's Diary worked for her, as well as the fact that keeping Himari alive consistently comes at a high price). With this in mind, I have to really think that either Himari dies, or somebody takes her place.
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Old 2011-12-04, 11:16   Link #49
Utsuro no Hako
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If it comes to that it would be Himari, I think, since she's already hinted for disappearance in the OP (last shot of the OP).
True, but then it's Ringo who has the flame motif in both OPs. However, in terms of character I think Shouma's the most likely candidate since he feels a deep sense of guilt for what his parents and now Kanba have done. He needs to redeem himself in order to be at peace, and I don't think he achieve that through anyone else's sacrifice.

Quote:
I still think a "no magic" ending is most likely. Maybe it's because of Utena that I think this way. You know,
Spoiler for utena:


All that considering, I wouldn't be surprised if the diary doesn't' even do what people (both the characters and the audience) think it does .
We've seen the diary in action through flashbacks. Even if Yuri misinterpreted what happened, it did something. With such a huge magical gun hanging on the wall, someone has to shoot it before the series ends.
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Old 2011-12-04, 13:00   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Let's be honest. If Shouma doesn't find it in him to forgive his parents for what they did, why would he forgive Kanba who's now doing the same? But if he doesn't forgive him, he won't be able to save him, and that would be the end of his family. That is the main conflict of the show. Shouma needs to accept that being a Takakura, being the son of his parents, is not a "curse", no matter what they did. He needs to accept that fate and become stronger, so that he can go reclaim his family.
Those quotes are interesting, but I think that interpretation is a bit too literal for me. Using characters symbolically as representing a generation forgiving the previous generation is one thing, but on some level the characters have to behave in a way that's internally consistent with who they are and what their circumstances are.

If the issue is forgiveness, I would ask this: is there ever a situation where a child shouldn't forgive their parents (or family members) for what they've done, or is the message that family trumps all else? If Hitler had a child, should that child forgive Hitler for the holocaust? If parents sexually abuse a child and then sell them into prostitution, should they be forgiven?

I don't disagree that Shouma needs to come to terms with who he is, or even that his doing so is probably the critical element of the last arc. I just don't know if forgiving his family and embracing his status as a Takakura is really the answer, and given what their parents and even Kanba (who's been confirmed as a murderer, assuming the last episode actually happened) have done, I'm not sure they deserve his forgiveness. Perhaps what needs to happen is for him to accept that he's connected to these people, but not limited by that connection - that he has the power to transcend that and become a worthwhile person not because of but in spite of those connections.

My big worry at this point is the "deux ex Momoka" ending. There's been very little talk of Momoka and the diary lately, and I don't want that to be the magic bullet that wraps everything up in the end, as a means of justifying the entire first cour.
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Old 2011-12-04, 14:39   Link #51
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Well... Jesus said that we must forgive all people. And he never gave any exceptions. So there is a significant moral code that demands forgiveness regardless of what someone else has done.
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Old 2011-12-04, 15:18   Link #52
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OTOH, some modern philosophers take the view that forgiving without requiring others to change is self-destructive, and perpetuates a dysfunctional relationship by continually rewarding immoral behavior.
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Old 2011-12-04, 15:36   Link #53
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I don't disagree that Shouma needs to come to terms with who he is, or even that his doing so is probably the critical element of the last arc. I just don't know if forgiving his family and embracing his status as a Takakura is really the answer, and given what their parents and even Kanba (who's been confirmed as a murderer, assuming the last episode actually happened) have done, I'm not sure they deserve his forgiveness. Perhaps what needs to happen is for him to accept that he's connected to these people, but not limited by that connection - that he has the power to transcend that and become a worthwhile person not because of but in spite of those connections.
What did Shouma tell Ringo back in episode 14? That they couldn't be together because she wouldn't forgive what his family had done to her. But in the end, the one who can't forgive is Shouma himself. It's not coincidence episode 21 begins with Ringo sticking for the Takakura against that reporter. Ringo did forgive, because she chose love above everything else. Himari did too, and so she went after Kanba to save him.

So I disagree. Shouma needs to forgive. His parents did wrong, but they are still his parents. He can't move on until he makes peace with that part of himself. It's not about transcending the past, but rather about accepting it and building upon it.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-12-04 at 15:50.
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Old 2011-12-04, 15:42   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
....

I'm getting Eva vibes from this show, starting with episode 20. Ever since last episode this has moved beyond "storytelling" into "legend" territory. This show is trying to same something meaningful. Whether it will succeed or not remains to be seen.

Considering the obvious references to Aum in Penguin Drum, and now these Eva tendancies, I found these quotes interesting:




I can't help but wonder at the significant anime originals this year that are making philosophical statements.

Penguin Drum is one.
Madoka is another.

One thing for sure, if I'm getting Eva vibes, then bad stuff is going to happen to the characters.
These quotes you've posted are some of the most amazing, insightful and interesting ones I've heard out of Japanese creators in a long time. I actually just saw Okada's Wings of Honneamise and was kind of startled and reawoken yet again to just how vastly different the goals for anime seem to have been back then compared to now. If Penguin Drum really is going down the road of trying to make a much needed point yet again then I think it's time to start watching and supporting it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
OTOH, some modern philosophers take the view that forgiving without requiring others to change is self-destructive, and perpetuates a dysfunctional relationship by continually rewarding immoral behavior.
I used to follow the forgiving without requiring others to change philosophy but have lately found the same thing, it'll just lead to those people exploiting the crap out of you because they feel no chance at retribution of any sort. I personally used to believe that people were good natured by default, but lately through experience I've found that while people won't necessarily go out of their way to screw you over so to speak, if it's in full benefit to them and they sense no consequences, there's usually no instilled belief system or code of honor/conduct so to speak that will hold them back from doing so like their was for prior generations. In some ways while we've progressed a lot as a society from previous generations in terms of civil liberties and decreased discrimination, we could also stand to learn a thing or two from them as well when it comes to manners, a sense of honor and dignity and social conduct.

In short we kind of need to start keeping each other in check a little bit again without worrying so much about political correctness, but also without being outright discriminatory and antagonistic towards one another. It's a delicate balance between being somewhat selfish without outright just becoming a completely dysfunctional member of society.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2011-12-04 at 16:20.
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Old 2011-12-04, 16:00   Link #55
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
What did Shouma tell Ringo back in episode 14? That they couldn't be together because she wouldn't forgive what his family had done to her. But in the end, the one who can't forgive is Shouma himself. It's not coincidence episode 21 begins with Ringo sticking for the Takakura against that reporter. Ringo did forgive, because she chose love above everything else. Himari did too, and so she went after Kanba to save him.

So I disagree. Shouma needs to forgive. His parents did wrong, but they are still his parents. He can't move on until he makes peace with that part of himself. It's not about transcending the past, but rather about accepting it and building upon it.
You can't use Ringo as an analogy, though, because she forgave Shouma, and Shouma didn't do anything wrong. He's not to blame for who his parents were, so I don't think it's a comparable situation.

If anything - and maybe this is picking at semantics a bit - I think what Shouma needs to do is forgive himself. Right now he hates himself because he's his parents son, and that's misguided. I don't think it's a matter of forgiving his parents for murdering hundreds of people - I think it's a matter of forgiving himself for being born, and realizing that he's the who determines what kind of man he'll be and what his worth is - not the name on his birth certificate.
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Old 2011-12-04, 16:14   Link #56
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If anything - and maybe this is picking at semantics a bit - I think what Shouma needs to do is forgive himself. Right now he hates himself because he's his parents son, and that's misguided. I don't think it's a matter of forgiving his parents for murdering hundreds of people - I think it's a matter of forgiving himself for being born, and realizing that he's the who determines what kind of man he'll be and what his worth is - not the name on his birth certificate.
If Ikuhara is to be believed, the point of the series is not the personal self-discovery itself but the sense of community. Shouma does have to forgive himself, but that is just the first step. The point is getting back his family, and Kanba is part of it.

But Kanba is a terrorist, just like Shouma's parents. If Shouma doesn't find it in him to forgive them, how can he save Kanba and reclaim his family?
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Old 2011-12-04, 17:15   Link #57
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If Ikuhara is to be believed, the point of the series is not the personal self-discovery itself but the sense of community. Shouma does have to forgive himself, but that is just the first step. The point is getting back his family, and Kanba is part of it.

But Kanba is a terrorist, just like Shouma's parents. If Shouma doesn't find it in him to forgive them, how can he save Kanba and reclaim his family?
Maybe his true family is Japanese society as a whole, and the entire human race. And by focusing too much on those who befoul the karma of his larger family, he's lost his place in that family.
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Old 2011-12-04, 18:00   Link #58
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Maybe his true family is Japanese society as a whole, and the entire human race. And by focusing too much on those who befoul the karma of his larger family, he's lost his place in that family.
If you read what Ikuhara says about family I think Kazu is probably closer to the truth, although we won't know for sure what he has planned until the final episode. Although I am not really sure about forgiving what they did but still sticking by them.

Spoiler for Ikuhara's thoughts on family:



Also I wouldn't say if the diary is used it is a deus ex machina. I mean for one thing it has been introduced and we already know it can transfer fates. It also does come with a cost, so it's not like it is an easy solution.

That being said I would kind of be surprised if everything is solved with a "magical solution" but we'll see. And not to mention I don't think Ikuhara is going to want to do something predictable. That is definitely not his style. He does like to fool the audience.
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Old 2011-12-07, 07:50   Link #59
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THIS FUCKING SERIES...!

That's all I've got to say.
idd.

Ten chars >_<
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Old 2011-12-07, 09:54   Link #60
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I think this is one of few times in my life I had to rewatch it again.

The music was spectacular. I don't often listen to the pieces played but the amplification to the himari flashback > kanba restaurant was just tear jerking along with the other songs such as the kanba vs sho fight and himari farewell.

There was too many relevations and suprises within this episode. How Masako and Kanba are siblings, and that after the ending we know that their true dad is actually dead. Looking back at past episodes and the letters Masako reads, about how her father cannot come back to the house, I found it shocking he was actually dead.

Also the Tarakura's are actually dead was also pretty significant. Was wondering why the restaurant went from pretty nice to a dumphole when Himari entered.

I don't post often but this felt like the best episode to date.
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