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Old 2011-11-17, 20:22   Link #81
Vicious108
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Because albeit his art is fantastic, he's not a very talented writer and no matter how many of his little twists he adds to the story he always inevitably falls back on the TV series' plot outline, even when it no longer makes sense for certain characters to act the way they did there after he's written them differently (usually worse).

Also, he's a lazy mofo and I really doubt he's even passionate or invested artistically into the Eva manga any more after it's been going on for over 15 years. He likely just wants to get it over with at this point, and sticking to the original conclusion is the easier way to achieve that. I doubt there'll be any significant changes besides the usual Asuka shafting in favour of Rei.
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Old 2011-11-17, 21:07   Link #82
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I haven't started reading the manga, but seeing where the story is now I wonder how one of the biggest mind-f**king endings will look in manga form.
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Old 2011-11-18, 14:21   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Also, he's a lazy mofo and I really doubt he's even passionate or invested artistically into the Eva manga any more after it's been going on for over 15 years.
I dont agree on calling him lazy. He is a quite busy man and the art quality is pretty high and as a rule it takes more time to produce highquality art than low one. On the other hand I wholeheartedly agree that he isnt very passionate about Evangelion.

He is passionate about Rei but evangelion as a whole - not so much really.

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I doubt there'll be any significant changes besides the usual Asuka shafting in favour of Rei.
The problem is that he changed quite a few things but he sometimes write series as if it strictly follows anime and those changes never have been made which mades his plot bit tough to follow.

And he is a dedicated Reifanboy and Asukahater so that shafting is pretty much expected at this point (technically he never even said he hated Asuka, just that that her character was allien to him and he never really understood her character). Though frankly I dont think he ever really tried to understand Asuka's character.
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Old 2011-11-18, 15:44   Link #84
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Well, he hasn't killed Asuka (and she died horribly by this point in EoE), whilst Rei has already fused with Lilith. So, for all we know, Rei may get the same end as in EoE whereas Asuka may get a slightly better one.

I also think he's done an amazing job with some other characters like Tōji and mainly Kaji. Hell, Kaji's back-story in the manga was amazing.
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Old 2011-11-18, 16:03   Link #85
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Well, he hasn't killed Asuka (and she died horribly by this point in EoE), whilst Rei has already fused with Lilith. So, for all we know, Rei may get the same end as in EoE whereas Asuka may get a slightly better one.
And him not killing Asuka is supposed to prove he cares for her character?

It's the exact contrary. Her final scenes and death were amazing moments for her character in End of Evangelion. Here she manages to survive thanks to Shinji-sama's interference, but the ramifications of that are completely ignored. Instead of it leading to any new worthwhile direction for her character, she just drools and thanks Shinji as the good dere-dere, inefficient pilot and worthless character she is.

And a better end than in EoE? Seriously? Her end (and Shinji's) in EoE was fantastic, one of the greatest triumphs in the series, for sure. The quality of a character arc's conclusion isn't measured by how "happy" it is. Asuka could end up the healthiest and happiest person on Earth in the manga for all I care, she'd still be an extremely shallow character, light years from her anime self.
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Old 2011-11-18, 16:25   Link #86
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Whilst I'll agree her fight in the manga wasn't nearly as good as the one in EoE, her fight in the manga wasn't bad either and she still got over her inner demons. In addition, she was also able to further her happiness a bit more by not getting killed by the MPEs after being saved by Shinji - which she appreciated.

Also, when I said better, I never meant better in terms of quality, but just a slightly happier end - she'll probably still have to see the whole world get tanged, but at least she won't have to go through the experience of getting devoured again.

As for her development, I'll agree. But again, we had already seen it in the anime. So, why not develop other characters instead? That is what the manga did. I really don't see that as a problem.
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Old 2011-11-18, 16:57   Link #87
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It doesn't matter if she appreciated being saved by Shinji. As a fan of her character, I want to see her get the most interesting characterisation and development possible, not just for her to become boringly happy through completely uninspired and mundane writing.

Ultimately I would like her to become happy, but only after going through the warranted character progression for someone as pathologically damaged as her. And Sadamoto has no idea whatsoever, nor the writing talent required, to achieve that. All he's done is dumb down her character by drastically simplifying her issues and moving her towards the desired end result of her character arc without having her go through the proper and necessary development to get there. He (and fans of the manga) might think him he's done her a favour by keeping her alive, but ironically enough all that's done so far is detract from her character. The Asuka that went into a coma due to her self-destructive inferiority complex towards Shinji's superior performance in Eva has been completely upstaged by him here, being utterly helpless and doing nothing but moaning and drooling while he kicks ass, yet she's seemingly got no qualms about it and actually blushes and sincerely thanks him for it. No mental conflict whatsoever. She's a shell of her anime self. A bland stand-in.

So yes, the manga might indeed give her a happier end, but it's abundantly clear that will also be one nowhere near as profound and compelling as what she got in the anime. I would like to think that any Evangelion fan would rather see a not-so-happy in-depth character study for one of its major characters than for said character to end up happy with so little substance behind it.

And I would have less of a problem with Asuka getting so little focus if Sadamoto actually managed to handle her character well when he does utilise her. But that's not what happens. He's basically ruined her beyond help at this point and the further development side characters like Kaji and Toji got, albeit enjoyable, certainly isn't enough to make up for it and make the manga stand up to the anime overall. It's still worth reading for the art mostly, but as far as the characters go (and Evangelion is as character-driven a story as it gets), it's completely outclassed. The aforementioned Kaji and Toji are pretty much the only characters that are comparable to their anime selves as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 2011-11-18, 22:24   Link #88
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I don't see the problem with her being okay with Shinji saving her. By that point, she had already made peace with her mother. Her inferiority complex stemmed from the fact she thought her mother wouldn't care for her unless she was the best of the best, but after she was able to feel her mother's warmth once again, she had no reasons to remain chained by her inferiority complex.

Also, whilst I agree her characterisation wasn't as extensive as the anime's, I'd say the manga has kept the key elements that make Asuka who she is.

I wouldn't say the characterisation in the manga is bad, but it simply develops other characters. Personally, I've liked the characterisation Shinji, Rei, Tōji and especially Kaji have had. I remember there being some interesting development on Gendō and Fuyutsuki as well as a bit more insight on what Gehrin used to be along with what SEELE is currently doing.

I can understand the disappointment of someone who is a huge fan of Asuka, but I really don't think her lack of exposure ruins the manga. I think both the anime and the manga have their strong points and their weak points.
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Old 2011-11-19, 08:09   Link #89
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In some forum i heard that there are possibility that Asuka will erased for RoE but due her huge popularity then it never happen. Actually Asuka just comic relief character which created to made Evangelion not alienated mecha fans in that time. Btw if we asses Asuka character, we will find that it really fit with most mecha pilot character in that time. Don't forget that before Eva there isn't any timid, indecisive and coward pilot like Shinji or obedience, asocial and frail pilot like Rei. So don't surprise that Eva designer maybe dislike Asuka character because for them Asuka was create to accommodate fans but actually not really necessary for story.
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Old 2011-11-19, 12:40   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Also, whilst I agree her characterisation wasn't as extensive as the anime's, I'd say the manga has kept the key elements that make Asuka who she is.
I disagree with this statement.

Asuka's character has been changed too drastically to say that Sadomoto kept the key elements. He didn't. He completely lost her as a character and from a deep character with her own problems from where her bitchiness raises, we have a shallow, whiny bitch whose main grape seems to be not the problems of socializing but a simple envy which raises from her being a very petty person.

The core of the character is completely different.


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So don't surprise that Eva designer maybe dislike Asuka character because for them Asuka was create to accommodate fans but actually not really necessary for story.
Asuka is an Evangelions Sheryl (from Macross Frontier) in that regard. A character who wasnt really meant to be the main but whose story was so captivating that it became one of the main stories.

The difference is that MF in their movies shifted even more to that character and explore it creating even more depth, while Evangelion (both the remake and manga) shafted the character down to leave a final product quite shallow and not having much in common with the character from the original.
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Old 2011-11-19, 13:08   Link #91
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The difference is that MF in their movies shifted even more to that character and explore it creating even more depth, while Evangelion (both the remake and manga) shafted the character down to leave a final product quite shallow and not having much in common with the character from the original.
Well, to be fair, the Rebuild series isn't over yet, so we can't exactly tell whether the Asuka in that version is shallow or not (yet).

As for the manga, yeah, maybe the manga-Asuka isn't as complex as in the anime, but I don't think she's that shallow of a character compared to other anime/manga characters out there. You can call me blasphemers or anything, but I enjoy manga-Asuka more than anime-Asuka.
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Old 2011-11-19, 20:40   Link #92
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You can call me blasphemers or anything, but I enjoy manga-Asuka more than anime-Asuka.
Yes, because she is dumbed down but gets much less screen time and as a result gets less on ones nerves.

And yeah rebuild isnt over yet, but from preview it doesnt look like the next one will be Asuka-heavy at all and sadly being one eyed (pirate) captain doesnt really account to character depth. Otherwise the rebuild Asuka doesnt have much to offer other than a typical and very generic tsundere antic that you have seen 1000 times elsewhere.
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Old 2011-11-19, 22:12   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Yes, because she is dumbed down but gets much less screen time and as a result gets less on ones nerves.

And yeah rebuild isnt over yet, but from preview it doesnt look like the next one will be Asuka-heavy at all and sadly being one eyed (pirate) captain doesnt really account to character depth. Otherwise the rebuild Asuka doesnt have much to offer other than a typical and very generic tsundere antic that you have seen 1000 times elsewhere.
I think in anime and manga Asuka character was same, Tsundere pilot with dark past but in manga her destiny is better since she not devoured by MP Eva. About rebuild since it not finished yet so I can't gave assessment.
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Old 2011-11-19, 22:56   Link #94
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I think in anime and manga Asuka character was same, Tsundere pilot with dark past but in manga her destiny is better since she not devoured by MP Eva. About rebuild since it not finished yet so I can't gave assessment.
Actually, Asuka in anime is not a generic tsundere at all. Plenty of tsundere traits but not enough to call her a generic Type A one. In manga is she generic. A shablon if you want. She lost most of her personality traits that made her exceptional, more than just a generic tsundere label.

Thats why they are different/ Anime Asuka couldnt fit into the typical labels and felt more like a living person, manga - is just a generic 2D tsundere who is also shallow as hell (her past became less troubling, her relationship with Shinji lost its complexity etc)
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Old 2011-11-20, 01:05   Link #95
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Yes, because she is dumbed down but gets much less screen time and as a result gets less on ones nerves.
Wow Darknemo, your comment is pretty spot-on in explaining my fondness toward manga-Asuka . Yes, I like manga-Asuka more coz she is portrayed as a nicer person compared to her anime counterpart (whether or not it adds to the richness of her character). As a result, manga-Asuka is less 'evil' and doesn't annoy me too much.

Still, I'm not sure about her 'less screen-time (or page-time, in this case)'. I think she gets a lot of pages in the manga.
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Old 2011-11-20, 05:32   Link #96
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Still, I'm not sure about her 'less screen-time (or page-time, in this case)'. I think she gets a lot of pages in the manga.
Look at the role she has been playing in anime and in manga. It has certainly decreased. Even her relationship with Shinji was cut out for the most of it (and its not that she doesnt kiss shinji, its her complexity between Shinji and Kaji as well as her similarity to Misato's relationship was left out).
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Old 2011-11-20, 09:17   Link #97
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Look at the role she has been playing in anime and in manga. It has certainly decreased. Even her relationship with Shinji was cut out for the most of it (and its not that she doesnt kiss shinji, its her complexity between Shinji and Kaji as well as her similarity to Misato's relationship was left out).
Umm...I was talking about manga-Asuka's screentime/pages there. What you said in your reply above is more about her role capacity. As far as I know, screen-time/pages does not equal role capacity. Yes, some of her roles has been significantly cut out, but she gets plenty of screen-time if we count the manga pages in its entirety.
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Old 2011-11-20, 15:55   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Umm...I was talking about manga-Asuka's screentime/pages there. What you said in your reply above is more about her role capacity. As far as I know, screen-time/pages does not equal role capacity. Yes, some of her roles has been significantly cut out, but she gets plenty of screen-time if we count the manga pages in its entirety.
With her capacity decreases the number of pages as well. Omiting the whole Shinji/Asuka relationship complexity made it cut potentially a whole many of pages that would have been there if they would have not made the cuts and kept asuka's role as important as that of the main characters.

In anime she was the main character together with the others. In manga she is just a second importance side character.
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Old 2011-11-21, 10:59   Link #99
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And a better end than in EoE? Seriously? Her end (and Shinji's) in EoE was fantastic, one of the greatest triumphs in the series, for sure. The quality of a character arc's conclusion isn't measured by how "happy" it is. Asuka could end up the healthiest and happiest person on Earth in the manga for all I care, she'd still be an extremely shallow character, light years from her anime self.
i guess to each his own. Anno's interpretation of evangelion just freaked the hell outta me.

call me un-artisitic if you wish -- but i am interpreting it from the mind set of anno at that point. he was clinically depressed and all his thoughts were projected throughout the series especially shinji. the more i watched it, the more i learned about the director -- not the characters.

at least in my opinion, sadamoto could give evangelion a proper ending -- yes, it means with closure.
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Old 2011-12-07, 07:32   Link #100
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Mh-hm...
Spoiler for ch.88:

So, yeah, she literally had the last word there.
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