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Old 2011-10-12, 17:31   Link #101
Sun-Ken-Rock
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Damn your smart :P
Well that brings up another point, if Sasuke is still killing enemies of the leaf, is he still indirectly fighting for the leaf? If you see it the same way I do, then he is is the only proactive character. He isn't doing anything the way it was done by anyone else. You called Naruto a revolutionary, but Sasuke is the revolutionary in my view.

This is mainly because "revolution" means: radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles. Naruto as I've said is a reactive character, doing as instructed, believing in the thoughts of his sensei, fighting for the peace his father and sensei wanted, going after Sasuke because of his promise to Sakura, in other words he is not innovative, or outside established procedure in this sense.

Sasuke on the other hand he left his village, joined a taboo group, left the taboo group, killed his brother because he was mad at him for killing his clan, created a new group(hien), decided to attack his home village (which is not what anyone else wanted, nor his brother).

And all this info adds to the list. Didn't mean to argue, but this is how conversations start :P
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Old 2011-10-13, 08:33   Link #102
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Both Naruto and Sasuke are reactive characters.
Sasuke wants to kill everyone he believes is responsible for making Itachi wipe out his entire clan (Which to him is basically everyone in Konoha). And Naruto wants no more bad guys and bad things to happen as well as to bring back his friend from the dark side.
None of them have any plan whatsover just a mission set in stone and determination to back it up.
It's Madara/tobi who is the revolutionary and who has the plans and is changing the world. The same can be said about Nagato/Yahiko before Madara distorted their views/plans. Also Kabuto can be seen as a revolutionary, though not as much as Tobi.

Basically the main chars are pretty boring character wise, that's also why they get a lot of heat.

Last edited by mrShady; 2011-10-13 at 12:10.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:24   Link #103
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Being a revolutionary and being a good guy are almost completely different things, for example the french or the soviet revolutions had introduced "terror" as a means of achieving change. In particular the soviets have killed millions of people, more than the 2nd world war, they created an "evil" system which ruled by fear and terror. Naruto is a good guy, he would never want to change the system by "terror", while Sasuke doesn't want to change the system, he just wants to destroy and doesn't care what happens with the people.

About "acting" and "reacting":
Sasuke is always reacting, he is never in control of what happens to him, he doesn't even have any meaningful goal in life now, he just wants to kill people.
Naruto in most cases was "reactive", however just remember when he didn't kill Nagato, he chose to not react to Nagato's acts, he chose to let him go. At that moment naruto was "acting". Sure in most of the other situation Naruto seems to only react, but it's not because he doesn't want to do things his own way, but because he is either too weak or too stupid to take control. Naruto was always an "acting" character, remember how he said he will change the Hyuuga for Neji, he instinctively wants to change the rules, but he was either too stupid or too weak until recently to do any change.

One thing is the way of thinking and another is the achievments. Naruto is thinking like a true revolutionary but he doesn't have too many revolutionary achievments yet because he was either weak or stupid to succeed. Sasuke's thinking was never revolutionary, if he ever achieved something that can be called revolutionary then it is pure coincidence. Of course the coincidence if not random, Kishimoto set things up to happen like this

While Naruto's revolutionary achievments are not many and important to the world, he already has some quite nice achievments:
- he didn't kill Nagato, as a result Nagato resurrected all the killed konoha people
- changed not only Neji's thinking about the main branch of Hyuuga and "fate", but also Hinata's father's thinking
- changed Chiyo's way of thinking, she gave up her life to resurrect Gaara
- changed Gaara, as a result he because kazekage and konoha's best ally
- changed Tsunade's and Jiraiya's way of thinking
- etc.
Sure these are minor achievments that shouldn't even be called "revolutionary", but i think these achievments all show about Naruto's way of thinking that is all about changing the world. When i complained about Naruto not being a revolutionary i was not complaining about his way of thinking, but about the events that happened after the Pain-invasion. At that time Naruto didn't do anything, he went on to an island to count animal penises instead of fighting, but recently Kishimoto changed all this and Naruto is back and kicking ass. For now he is just "reacting", that is fighting in the war, but later on you will see him changing the world.

About Sasuke:
I think you should think about 2 Sasukes here: the pre-Madara Sasuke and the post-Madara Sasuke. Before Madara mindwashed him Sasuke was a good guy, he even ordered Suigetsu not to kill people, he did destroy Orochimaru's prisons and free the prisoners, he called Orochimaru disgusting like Itachi when he rebelled against him. In my opinion he was a good guy. He had a sense of morality, in his mind the Leaf village were the good guys and people like Orochimaru and Itachi the bad guys. But when Madara told him the truth his world collapsed, it turned out that Itachi was a good guy and the konoha leaders the bad guys. Sasuke lost the base of his morality, at that point with his messed up mind he invented his new way of thinking. And while following his new way of thinking he became more and more "evil", we can see that looking at how he treated his own team. At the begining of his transformation he fights KillerBee: he still cares about Karin and his team, but later when he fights the kages he doesn't care about his team, and finally against Danzou: he almost kills Karin.
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Old 2011-10-14, 14:40   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Being a revolutionary and being a good guy are almost completely different things, for example the french or the soviet revolutions had introduced "terror" as a means of achieving change. In particular the soviets have killed millions of people, more than the 2nd world war, they created an "evil" system which ruled by fear and terror. Naruto is a good guy, he would never want to change the system by "terror", while Sasuke doesn't want to change the system, he just wants to destroy and doesn't care what happens with the people.

About "acting" and "reacting":
Sasuke is always reacting, he is never in control of what happens to him, he doesn't even have any meaningful goal in life now, he just wants to kill people.
Naruto in most cases was "reactive", however just remember when he didn't kill Nagato, he chose to not react to Nagato's acts, he chose to let him go. At that moment naruto was "acting". Sure in most of the other situation Naruto seems to only react, but it's not because he doesn't want to do things his own way, but because he is either too weak or too stupid to take control. Naruto was always an "acting" character, remember how he said he will change the Hyuuga for Neji, he instinctively wants to change the rules, but he was either too stupid or too weak until recently to do any change.

One thing is the way of thinking and another is the achievments. Naruto is thinking like a true revolutionary but he doesn't have too many revolutionary achievments yet because he was either weak or stupid to succeed. Sasuke's thinking was never revolutionary, if he ever achieved something that can be called revolutionary then it is pure coincidence. Of course the coincidence if not random, Kishimoto set things up to happen like this

While Naruto's revolutionary achievments are not many and important to the world, he already has some quite nice achievments:
- he didn't kill Nagato, as a result Nagato resurrected all the killed konoha people
- changed not only Neji's thinking about the main branch of Hyuuga and "fate", but also Hinata's father's thinking
- changed Chiyo's way of thinking, she gave up her life to resurrect Gaara
- changed Gaara, as a result he because kazekage and konoha's best ally
- changed Tsunade's and Jiraiya's way of thinking
- etc.
Sure these are minor achievments that shouldn't even be called "revolutionary", but i think these achievments all show about Naruto's way of thinking that is all about changing the world. When i complained about Naruto not being a revolutionary i was not complaining about his way of thinking, but about the events that happened after the Pain-invasion. At that time Naruto didn't do anything, he went on to an island to count animal penises instead of fighting, but recently Kishimoto changed all this and Naruto is back and kicking ass. For now he is just "reacting", that is fighting in the war, but later on you will see him changing the world.

About Sasuke:
I think you should think about 2 Sasukes here: the pre-Madara Sasuke and the post-Madara Sasuke. Before Madara mindwashed him Sasuke was a good guy, he even ordered Suigetsu not to kill people, he did destroy Orochimaru's prisons and free the prisoners, he called Orochimaru disgusting like Itachi when he rebelled against him. In my opinion he was a good guy. He had a sense of morality, in his mind the Leaf village were the good guys and people like Orochimaru and Itachi the bad guys. But when Madara told him the truth his world collapsed, it turned out that Itachi was a good guy and the konoha leaders the bad guys. Sasuke lost the base of his morality, at that point with his messed up mind he invented his new way of thinking. And while following his new way of thinking he became more and more "evil", we can see that looking at how he treated his own team. At the begining of his transformation he fights KillerBee: he still cares about Karin and his team, but later when he fights the kages he doesn't care about his team, and finally against Danzou: he almost kills Karin.
I agree that Naruto has changed things for people and you could look at it as being revolutionary, however it's not like he planned to do such things. At those moments he just acts according to his feelings/instincts (the Pain/Nagato situation being the first one he thought about how he wanted to respond). He's a natural yet it's not like he's busy with it. If it crosses his path he acts the part, if not he is doing very little (it's not like he has thought up a plan for a coexisting society).
So he is and is not a revolutionary.

I agree on your excellent Sasuke "assessment"
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Old 2011-10-14, 15:22   Link #105
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
I agree that Naruto has changed things for people and you could look at it as being revolutionary, however it's not like he planned to do such things. At those moments he just acts according to his feelings/instincts (the Pain/Nagato situation being the first one he thought about how he wanted to respond). He's a natural yet it's not like he's busy with it. If it crosses his path he acts the part, if not he is doing very little (it's not like he has thought up a plan for a coexisting society).
So he is and is not a revolutionary.

I agree on your excellent Sasuke "assessment"
While Naruto's actions cannot be called revolutionary but his thinking is. He rebels against the "system". When he fights Neji it isn't just a fight to advance to the next round of the chuunin exam. You could see how Naruto did care about Hinata, he even cared about Neji, he did understand the tragic situation of both Neji and Hinata, and he "acted" according to his belief, he said he will change the Hyuuga. He didn't have to do that for these two, it was not his problem, he didn't "react" to anything since he had nothing to do with the Hyuuga clan. Sure what he did cann't be called revolutionary, but this among other things did clearly show that he will never accept the inhuman side of this ninja system, and he will become a revolutionary when he grows to be strong and smart enough.

I agree that he never seeked the problems, he just encountered them. But he was a child, unaware of how the world worked and also too weak and stupid to act. But now he is growing up slowly.

But now that we discuss this, we probably should not think that being a revolutionary means these people "act" and do not "react". Every revolution is a reaction, people rebel against a bad system, thats reacting to the oppression. It's difficult to make a clear difference between acting and reacting.
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Old 2011-10-15, 08:54   Link #106
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While Naruto's actions cannot be called revolutionary but his thinking is. He rebels against the "system". When he fights Neji it isn't just a fight to advance to the next round of the chuunin exam. You could see how Naruto did care about Hinata, he even cared about Neji, he did understand the tragic situation of both Neji and Hinata, and he "acted" according to his belief, he said he will change the Hyuuga. He didn't have to do that for these two, it was not his problem, he didn't "react" to anything since he had nothing to do with the Hyuuga clan. Sure what he did cann't be called revolutionary, but this among other things did clearly show that he will never accept the inhuman side of this ninja system, and he will become a revolutionary when he grows to be strong and smart enough.
Like I said he's a natural. I never said he's incapable of changing the world it's just that he does not seem to care about it until it crosses his path. You can't revolutionize the world if you only deal with the things you come across.

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I agree that he never seeked the problems, he just encountered them. But he was a child, unaware of how the world worked and also too weak and stupid to act. But now he is growing up slowly.

But now that we discuss this, we probably should not think that being a revolutionary means these people "act" and do not "react". Every revolution is a reaction, people rebel against a bad system, thats reacting to the oppression. It's difficult to make a clear difference between acting and reacting.
I agree that's it difficult to make clear difference between acting and reacting, but only when just part of a revolution. When you are said to be the head of the revolution or the spearhead you should have a more acting role, otherwise the revolution will never occur.
Napoleon is a great example of revolutionary. He took (partial) leadership of the French revolution and changed France and even Europe forever, by fighting but also with the introduction of new systems and laws.
However this is just a manga and we can hardly ask of Kishi to give Naruto's character such a realistic view of being a true revolutionary. But I wouldn't mind a more active part for Naruto "the revolutionary" in the near future.
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Old 2011-10-15, 14:16   Link #107
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When you are said to be the head of the revolution or the spearhead you should have a more acting role, otherwise the revolution will never occur.
Well, the author is using his little tricks to make Naruto seem to be a great revolutionary, however as i said he won't let Naruto do the destruction part of the work. Naruto will not kill people like Danzou, he will not rule by force, because this is just a shonen manga and not some realistic stuff. By today's idealisitic standards the great revolutionaries of the history were mostly evil serial killers, so it is unacceptable for a shonen manga to have such a hero as a good guy. Also they were egoistic, they wanted power, fame, money, etc., their speeches were often just lies telling others that their only objective is to create a better world, but they didn't tell that they want to be the rulers of that new world.

Even in more serious manga like Death Note the main character dies at the end, and it is made clear that he has to be the evil guy and therefore he has to die. Something that might be more to your taste is Watchmen, there the guy named Ozymandias not only changes the world but also saves it, but his plan and the execution of it is evil. But still he gets away with it in the end. But it's difficult to say that he didn't "react", since they were facing the end of the world and he had to do something.

But you can make another comparison: compare Naruto to Jesus as it was done many chapters ago. Sure this Jesus guy who was a poor man who apparently didn't achieve anything in his life, other than having a few disciples, has had a huge impact on the world. What i mean is that starting a "revolution" doesn't necessarily mean figthing and killing. Naruto doesn't have to kill people like Danzou to become a revolutionary, the author just needs to make him extremely lucky so that he never gets into such situations And this war is Naruto's luck, the dirty work is being done by Madara and Kabuto
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Old 2011-10-15, 14:35   Link #108
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Napoleon was just an example (I really should have used Ghandi, Nelson Mandela or Martin luther King ).
There is always a way to revolutionize the world in a "good" way but they don't succeed very often or it isn't flashy enough which wouldn't sell well.
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Old 2011-11-05, 06:35   Link #109
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I quite like this arc.
It does not look like war battles and it is more shinobi one-on-one battle like other combats in Naruto, but there are some good ideas. I particularly like the combat between Hanzo and Shifune. Ginkaku and Kinkaku were "different" but interesting. I liked the idea of the curse.

Since we have Madara vs. Kage and soon, Itachi vs. Kabuto, Naruto and Bee vs. Tobi (or maybe not Sasuke will arrive) I really wonder if each of these fights will have a conclusive outcome. Let's see what happens, it is difficult to predict the flow of events, because it is easily broken by something new and unknown. I am more interested in what of the past still unkonwn to us will be revealed.

I think the introduction of Ginkaku anf Kinkaku has a purpose to show that Tobi is the origin of them. More generally, it may be revealed that Tobi is the origin of every World Shinobi War.

I wonder if we will get a flashback on Kabuto's past as well as Orochimaru's and Anko's past. If so, Kabuto could "die" and let his body to Orochimaru's soul??

More backstory about Senju? We still need one or two chapters about Senju fighting Madara like we got for Kyuubi against Yondaime. And also how Senju died. I think Kakuzu is still here, so we can get some flashback. It is still obscure to me why Shodaime is the only one of his family to be able to do the Mokuton. Actually, is Senju really the descendant of the Sage? Maybe it is the Uzumaki family that is the more direct descendant.

I wonder if Dan's presence will be the trigger for more backstory on Tsunade.

I require more backstory on some characters especially Bee's trainees and the Mizukage.

There are still some unfinished side stories.Will we have an explanation? I still want to know what happened to Rin

And we will know who Tobi is for sure

Last edited by MeroBAKA; 2011-11-05 at 14:03.
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Old 2011-11-09, 00:20   Link #110
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I quite like this arc.
Ginkaku and Kinkaku were "different" but interesting. I liked the idea of the curse.
its actually a rip from the original dragonball episode 79 if anyone is interested... I'm not complaining, I actually like ginkaku and kinkaku and like many naruto fights it's based on old dragonball fights. this particular one was a little too similar imo though
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Old 2011-11-21, 04:40   Link #111
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Why isn't anyone looking for Kabuto? maybe Itachi?
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Old 2011-11-21, 05:22   Link #112
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I think Itachi said he was going to take care of Kabuto, or something like that.
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Old 2011-11-21, 21:51   Link #113
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its actually a rip from the original dragonball episode 79 if anyone is interested... I'm not complaining, I actually like ginkaku and kinkaku and like many naruto fights it's based on old dragonball fights. this particular one was a little too similar imo though
no its not... both those characters and the dragonball episode you are thinking of are in reference to the chinese story "Journey to the west". Kishi, like toriyama, loves referencing stories, history and folklore such as those and the story is filled with those. They are similar because they were both based on the same source material
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Old 2011-12-09, 14:42   Link #114
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my problem with this ninja war is the fact that tobi is kinda right in some respects. at the summit when the kages got on there soapbox and told him they would not give up killerbee or naruto to fulfill tobi plan to create peace. well lets be real here, it wasnt like the kaga were seconds away from real peace in the ninja world. they spend most of there time fighting each other about what to do. the kages are kind of hyocrites. it wasnt until bee was in trouble that the raikage got off his butt to call a meeting, to deal with the akatuski. until the kage stop careing about just there own people, there is never going to be peace. every kage has played a part in this since the begining, whether they wanted to or not. all kages first concern has been there villiage so they have all had a hand in it. the kages have had years to unite and bring peace. but lust for power and fear of others power have been there weakness. tobi knows this he ask them what have you kage done, in regards to world peace nothing and that is the fact of it. it is easy to put down tobi and say what you shouldnt do, the question tobi puts to the kage is what have you done because we havent seen any peace for all yet. naruto is going to change that. it was hinted at when he asked to cancel the kill order on sasuke, kakashi said that naruto cares about more than just his own people if war were to break out. my point is the kages have been as much as the problem here as tobi. and that includes the past kages as well.

Last edited by 23 gundam fan; 2011-12-09 at 14:55.
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Old 2011-12-09, 15:32   Link #115
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Akatsuki wars is one of my favorite scene in Naruto. I've seen in this scene that how they cooperate to stop Akatsuki on what they are doing. It is nice to see that they are eager to stop the Akatsuki. Shikamaru is the best. He is so intelligent and i love the way he think. He is the best team leader.
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Old 2012-06-08, 04:18   Link #116
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Rereading the edo madara fight and onooki starts going off about uniting the smaller villages bla bbla bla, I wonder if the other villages are even aware that there is a war going on lol

It would have been cool to see some other kage help the alliance or even side with Tobi...
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Old 2012-07-14, 18:06   Link #117
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Since we have Madara vs. Kage and soon, Itachi vs. Kabuto, Naruto and Bee vs. Tobi (or maybe not Sasuke will arrive) I really wonder if each of these fights will have a conclusive outcome.
Battles will be now re-shuffled before the conclusions of each one. Madara will certainly join the battle Naruto vs. Tobi.
I wonder how Sasuke will change the battles line-ups. He is still destined to fight Naruto after the frog's predictions.
Since I believe that most likely Tobi has Madara's body, I find that scenario a little too convenient just when Tobi awakens the statue with 9 bijuus. Tobi will transfer into the heretical statue and Madara can get back his body. It is too straightforward :P I remember Tsunade wanted to use Yondaime's technique against Madara, we have yet to see it, if I am not mistaken.

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I wonder if we will get a flashback on Kabuto's past as well as Orochimaru's and Anko's past. If so, Kabuto could "die" and let his body to Orochimaru's soul??
Well, Orochimaru is back. And now, I wonder if Kishi will use Yamato in the story like he uses Anko and Yamato was placed where he is now just to trigger a new element. Maybe there is a link with the trip of Sasuke and Orochimaru.
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I wonder if Dan's presence will be the trigger for more backstory on Tsunade.
I did not really understand the spiritualization jutsu, but I guess it will be re-reused.

What will happen to the rest of the army? Will they have a role against Tobi or Madara? Will they still fight the Zetsu?

Last edited by MeroBAKA; 2012-07-15 at 04:46.
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