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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 121 Rating
Perfect 10 9 15.52%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 8 13.79%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 22.41%
7 out of 10 : Good 18 31.03%
6 out of 10 : Average 6 10.34%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.72%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.72%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 3.45%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-11, 07:11   Link #501
MalakTawus
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@Malak. You make statements like "to keep an awakened arm in human form you have to control it MORE (not less!) than the 'AB awakened arm'" without explaining at all why it needs more control and completely does not match with how we see AB control their limbs. Or self contradicting statements like "The risk of an 'AB awakened arm' is obviously greater since that transformation is possible only if the mind of the warrior 'let the arm change form',so it's basically a successive step for the awakened arm." when you disagree with the point that awakening can take steps and one does not instantly awakened fully. And your way of calling out my argument having no logic is simply a rehash of your assumption: because the arm awakened -> anything explains how the arm go berserk without it awakening has no logical basis.
Oh god,there is no contradiction in what i said and everything is 100% logical,it's just you that don't understand....
It's OBVIOUS that the awakened arm in human form tends to pull the whole body to awaken and so it also obviously tend to reach the most advanced state of awakening (AB form).
It doesn't take a genius that to keep the arm in human form without letting it trasform in AB form, the warrior has to actually hold back that transformation with her mind and this OBVIOUSLY is very difficult if you have to restrict multiple limbs like you suggested.
On the other hand,letting the limbs change in AB form is something more easy to keep for the warrior since she doesn't have to keep those restrictions like before,but can focus only on not letting the youma energy escape from the limbs instead af focusing also on keeping the arms in human form.
The QoB mode more easy TO OBTAIN than a theoretical mode where Claire awakens all limbs but have to keep all of them under control,it's something absolutely obvious and logical,if you don't get it it's just your fault.
Note that i have said that the QoB is more easy to OBTAIN (compared to your theoretical mode),but i always said that it's also true that the QoB is more difficult to revert and it's also more risky since the AB arms are basically something like the second step of awakening and so it's more easy to lose your mind since they pull the warrior towards the full awakening even more than before.
Anyway it's quite evident that the reason why Claire never tried to do obtain your theoretical mode is simply because controlling all her limbs (at the same time of course) like she does with the QS is something that can't be done,so basically even if she tries to do it she wouldn't be able to keep the limbs to change form anyway,also as long as she can avoid to lose herself during the QoB mode (something that MAYBE she can do now),it's a lot better to use the QoB mode since it's a lot more powerful.

Quote:
"Having multiple awakened limbs in human form is actually A LOT MORE DIFFICULT than having multiple awakened limbs in AB form!!!" when we see Riful effortlessly control her awakened arm in human form. Or what you really mean is "trying to prevent oneself from fully awakening is a lot more difficult then having multiple awakened limbs in AB form." Then it becomes of question of not because AB form limbs are more difficult to control to non AB form awakened limbs but rather one of it is hard to pull back from awakening. My logic was a simple comparison of AB using their limbs in awakened form vs their human form having no difference in control. Therefore, an awakened limb in QOB form vs human form as you say should also be no more difficult to control. If the arm is already awaken, the ease of change in the awakened body parts for Clare should be the same as AB changing theirs. Remember the rest of the body is used to control the berserk arm with full youki release, not to control one self from awakening. You are implying otherwise.
What the hell are you saying? Of course it's different for Riful since she IS an awakened.
There is no reason for the youma inside Riful to cause part of her body going berserk since the youma part is ALREADY in control in awakened beings.
For Claire her limbs go berserk 'cause basically her youma part is "trying to free itself" from the control of the human mind,so when the arm goes beyond the limit and awakens it's very difficult for the human mind to control it since it starts to move following only the youma instincs.
An AB like Riful obviously don't have that problem since her awakened body obeys normally to her (awakened) mind,so obviously nothing goes berserk anyway (human form or AB is not different control-wise for them,since we are still talking of an awakened body following the orders of the awakened mind).
At best AB could have a "control-problem" if it's possible to return back human,infact from the AB's prospective the situation would be similar since their body (if deeply influenced by their human part) would basically refuse to obey their orders.
This last thing is just a simple speculation since for now it doesn't seem possible to turn back human if your mind awakens,but who knows,maybe in the future we could see an AB returning human...maybe Claire (since she could have an objective advantage due to her special body) or Prissy,for now it's just an hypothesis.


---------
First of all the databook doesn't have precedence of what is told directly by the warrior herself since the databook is simply what the Mibs knows,and we have already seen that they OFTEN are completely wrong,lol.
But anyway:
There is a big difference between the Mirage and the QS.
Like it's said very clearly,the Mirage simply consist in raising instantly the yoki till the limit,BUT it doesn't go beyond the limit so it obviously doesn't have any problem in this sense.
The QS instead goes BEYOND the limit,BEYOND!!!
That's why QS has all those problems that Mirage doesn't have at all,it's really incredible how you don't see the HUGE difference between the two situations.
You said before that the Mirage consist in instantanious 100% yoki release,and this is pure BS since the Mirage doesn't even approach 100% yoki in any way.
Sorry,but it's you that are talking nonsense,not me.

Quote:
Let's also conveniently ignore Irene never half awakened even though QS require her to awaken her arm.
Dude,the two things are not connected in any way,Irene can use the QS while the rest of her body is not even at 10% (eyes don't change color) so she actually is not even close to her limit,lol.
Awakening and half awakening is when their MINDS (or they whole body if you prefer) surpass the limit,it has nothing to do with just one arm surpassing the limit and awakening.

Quote:
Teresa, who precisely commented on Priscilla going pass the 80% limit, also never commented on Irene awakening her arm when she blocked all of Irene's QS. This is after giving a big lecture to Priscilla about the importance of knowing how much to release and not risk going pass the point of return. Isn't it a bit strange to completely ignore an awakened arm?
No,it's not strange at all for Teresa not commenting on Irene's arm,lol.
First of all, they knew each other so she had no reason to comment on that.
Second of all she was lecturing Prissy about being able to know their limit etc etc,BUT it surely wouldn't make any sense to comment on Irene's technique since Teresa knows very well that Irene has a perfect control of her yoki and knows perfectly well her limit (Irene is not a newbe like Prissy,she's a veteran!).......ALSO it wouldn't make sense anyway to comment on the QS since the real topic was "the risk to lose yourself" and Teresa knows that sure as hell Irene doesn't have that problem since she can use the QS without even going close to her limit (since only the arm is affected,nothing else).
As you can see,even your complaints here don't make any sense.

About Gala not commenting is atually quite normal for her since she often pretends to not see things (even if she probably knows them),for example she didn't even comment on the fact that Claire's arm was taken by another very powerful warrior,but do you really think that she didn't notice?If Miria can understand this sure as hell even Gala knew it....but still she said nothing.....
As you can see it's pretty normal for Gala to keep some things to herself.

Quote:
Anyways, I am sure you will resort to the same type of response to either ignore my points completely or argue from the basis of the arm is awakened, therefore xxxxx. I think if after all these you cannot at least have a reasonable doubt to re-examine your hypothesis, there is no point in continue this discussion since no matter what anyone says, you will continue to hold on to your view.
I could say basically the same thing,infact imo it's you that don't see what it's pretty clear.
Oh well, i made my point,if you still don't get my point,belive what you want and i'll do the same.

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2011-12-11 at 08:14.
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Old 2011-12-11, 09:53   Link #502
rafael1932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
They are meaningless. The only thing that matters is Plot Armor and Plot Sword. Yoki strength, speed, etc, are only meaningful for keeping the Claymore discussion threads alive over the course of each month in-between chapters.

The way you say makes people believe that even raki has a chance against hysteria Ė by the way he was not even try hard against the twins was he ?
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Old 2011-12-11, 10:15   Link #503
Shiek927
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Originally Posted by creb View Post
They are meaningless. The only thing that matters is Plot Armor and Plot Sword. Yoki strength, speed, etc, are only meaningful for keeping the Claymore discussion threads alive over the course of each month in-between chapters.

....Roflmao, no, they are not meaningless; by your logic, their is no real logic or purpose to virtually everything that happens in the entire story and is "just is". I mean really, if you were right, why do we even have a forum in the first place?

In other words, stop trying to be a killjoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rafael
The way you say makes people believe that even raki has a chance against hysteria – by the way he was not even try hard against the twins was he ?
From what I understand, they weren't trying hard against him either; they were more surprised by him, and he was merely defending.
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Old 2011-12-11, 11:27   Link #504
SagaraSouske
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Ch 118 page 24. Miria's thoughts: "If the phantom is a technique that instantly raises the youki from a normal state to limit of youki release, then instantaneously raising youki from an already released state to a point further, beyond the limit, would be a technique that exceeds the phantom. A technique without a shred of accuracy of Hysteria's Elegance. One that seeks nothing but speed. Simple and violent. And It's something that could called a momentary awakening..." She proceeds to do just that.

Sounds familiar? By your line of reasoning, Miria is already awakened. When I point out some supporting evidence from the Manga, instead of calling it BS straight up, please at least read the section I used for evidence.

You are the one who do not go by what is said exactly by the characters in the Manga. Even when they repeatedly say it's only like awakening but not actual awakening, you choose to treat them as actual awakening.
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Last edited by SagaraSouske; 2011-12-11 at 11:39.
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Old 2011-12-11, 12:04   Link #505
MalakTawus
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@Shiek
Quote:
From what I understand, they weren't trying hard against him either; they were more surprised by him, and he was merely defending.
Agree,those two surely didn't give me the impression that they were fighting seriously....but tbh even Raki had zero killing intent imo.
I can't even imagine him hurting little girls 'cause even if they are strong warriors (like the twins) it doesn't change the fact that they are still little girls in his eyes.

---------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Ch 118 page 24. Miria's thoughts: "If the phantom is a technique that instantly raises the youki from a normal state to limit of youki release, then instantaneously raising youki from an already released state to a point further, beyond the limit, would be a technique that exceeds the phantom. A technique without a shred of accuracy of Hysteria's Elegance. One that seeks nothing but speed. Simple and violent. And It's something that could called a momentary awakening..." She proceeds to do just that.

Sounds familiar? By your line of reasoning, Miria is already awakened. When I point out some supporting evidence from the Manga, instead of calling it BS straight up, please at least read the section I used for evidence.

You are the one who do not go by what is said exactly by the characters in the Manga. Even when they repeatedly say it's only like awakening but not actual awakening, you choose to treat them as actual awakening.
Like Miria said very clearly,that's not the phantom technique so don't even try to change what you did (that was 100% wrong since you were talking about the Mirage,her normal technique),that's the last technique that she used against Histy,and it's exactly like Miria said,it's basicaly a momentary awakening,the only reason why she doesn't really awaken is because everything happens in just an instant.
Why do you feel that again Yagi used that expression to describe the technique if it really was just a simple burst in yoki power?
Following your logic she could have said that she simply uses more yoki energy,nothing more....instead Yagi felt the need to make it clear that it basically it's like a momentary awakening?
If it's nothing more than using more yoki,why do you think that EVERY TIME that something like this happens Yagi underlines very well that the concept is very connected to the awakening?
Since the whole process lasts just an instant, it's not so risky like the QS (unless you overuse it) where instead the arm stays awakened for a relative long time and so can actually pull the body towards the awakening more effectively.
Basically it's like Miria's human mind gives the order to increase the yoki at max and almost at the same time orders the body to shut up the yoki,so there is not actual time to awaken.
.....BUT it's very clear that as soon as she tries to use too much this "new phantom" Miria is rapidly beginning to lose control. Miria can't use it too much or she will be gone before even realizing it.
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Old 2011-12-11, 12:42   Link #506
SagaraSouske
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Now you are just arguing technicality here about the naming of the technique. So every time technique is modified or improved it is a brand new one? Clare applying PYS to QS make QS a new technique, Miria use phantom without youki release is also a new phantom then?

Youki is central to all power from both Claymore and AB. The whole point of Claymore techniques are based on youki release and youki control. That's how some have better technique then others. Hysteria's elegance is better then Miria because she has better youki control even though her elegance is same principal as phantom. Clare's PYS + QS is better then Irene's original QS because she applied better youki control via PYS. The point is very clear by Yagi that QS and the phantom Miria used at the end of 118 are only like awakening, but not actual awakening. The fact you count arm 100% release as awakening but full body burst release to 100% not is already internally inconsistent to your line of reasoning.

Miria is losing control because using phantom takes a tow and there is only so many times she can handle. If she keeps on asking for more power like Clare did, yes, she will go the same route as Clare - which interestingly you didn't think was possible a few posts ago.

Not only are the descriptions of both technique only use Like awakening to describe what the effect is, they also both focus on the rest body control the 100% youki release and not to suppress awakening. You are twisting both aspects of what the characters said to suit your view.
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Old 2011-12-11, 13:15   Link #507
creb
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Originally Posted by rafael1932 View Post
The way you say makes people believe that even raki has a chance against hysteria – by the way he was not even try hard against the twins was he ?
It's true. If, for some reason, Yagi wanted Raki to fight Hysteria and win, he'd probably have Hysteria slip on a banana peel or suddenly remember how long it's been since she's had some hot, wild, sex and go off into some daydream.

Obviously a silly, and extreme, example. But, in a more general sense, the fact that people can still talk about who's stronger than who, every month for the last several years shows that Yagi doesn't really follow any hard and fast laws of strength beyond Plot Advancement, since this is a piece of fiction, and everything within it only serves to advance whatever preconceived story Yagi has in his brain. Not the other way around. Remember, this is really a shoujo manga, though it manages to not be as blunt about as say...Naruto/Bleach. Power ups, protagonists and antagonists talking each other to death, etc, actual strength of an individual is always quite meaningless as an author can-and will-pull something out of thin air to dictate any given fight going the direction he/she wants it to. I mean, you can't try to attach logic to the system since most of it is made up and constantly made up at that. Most of it actually makes little sense if you wanted to be rational about it all. But, that's why it's fantasy, I suppose.

Don't take this as me criticizing those who love to argue over strength, speed, etc. As I said, that's what keeps the Claymore threads alive in-between making fun of Rachel, Undine, Roxanne; complaining about Clare being out of the picture for over a year; and ruminations on whether Raki is human or not. My original post was just meant as a humerous jab at those who are a tad...serious...about it, is all.
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Old 2011-12-11, 14:03   Link #508
rafael1932
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Originally Posted by creb View Post
It's true. If, for some reason, Yagi wanted Raki to fight Hysteria and win, he'd probably have Hysteria slip on a banana peel or suddenly remember how long it's been since she's had some hot, wild, sex and go off into some daydream.
First of all it is not a bad idea at all. Claymores are still humans and they may have such needs . For example, hysteria wants to have sex with raki and then he “wins” because he converts her to his side. However she is awakened now so it would be ok before she got awakened, not after. Why we don’t see claymores trying to rape or buying males slaves? ( the org buy slaves don’t they ?)

I was thinking more like somehow hysteria gets near him ( raki) and he manages to bring the sword that she has( in the neck) and makes a huge jump and cut her head in half. Of course she would not see him until it is too late. I think that makes sense now that we saw raki fighting abilities ( not that I agree with such performance for a 100% human by the way)
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Old 2011-12-11, 15:37   Link #509
MalakTawus
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Now you are just arguing technicality here about the naming of the technique. So every time technique is modified or improved it is a brand new one? Clare applying PYS to QS make QS a new technique, Miria use phantom without youki release is also a new phantom then?
There is a big difference,the QS is a technique that requires for the arm of the user to go beyond the limit,the Mirage is a technique that works ONLY using yoki below the limit.
And yes,the technique that Miria is using now is pratically a very different technique infact both Histy and Miria herself refer to that fighting style (that has NOTHING IN COMMON to the Mirage btw) as a completely different technique.
How can this new thing be considered the same as the mirage when it's even impossible to change directions???It can't even produce multiple mirages,lol.
Miria's new technique is basically some sort of kamikaze attack at full speed,it's not even close to the Mirage in concept.
So yes,when you said that the Mirage used 100% yoki release you said something that is plain wrong,and unfortunately for you it's not just "arguing technicality" since the techniques are very different.
On the contrary PSY+QS is just an improved QS.

Quote:
The fact you count arm 100% release as awakening but full body burst release to 100% not is already internally inconsistent to your line of reasoning.
There is nothing wrong here,infact i explained quite clearly the difference.
Miria burst release only last an instant and that brief time is not enough for letting her lose control so she doesn't awaken,on the other hand instead the QS consist on going beyond the limit for a prolonged period of time and infact the arm lose control and that's why i call that arm losing control the first step of awakening.It's quite simple actually and there is no contradiction.
In the same way i could say that if Claire uses 100% yoki in her arm just for an instant,that instant is not enough to let her arm lose control so the awakening doesn't have time to happen.
Analogy:If you put your hand in a fire for some seconds you'll burn,but if you put your hand in a fire for just an instant it's not surprising that you won't burn at all.
Same concept,if your body is infused with powerful youma energy for just an instant you won't awaken,if instead you'll expose your body to the same powerful energy for at least a few seconds than you'll awaken for sure.

Actualy the one that doesn't make any sense is you: as you can see at least i have an explanation why the new Miria's technique won't let her awakens,but you how else would you explain it?
Personally i don't see any other explanation since (if you don't accept the explanation that i have said here where the exposition time is VERY RELEVANT for the final result) it's impossible for anyone to release 100% yoki in the whole body and not awaken.
I'd really like you see how the hell do you justify Miria using 100% yoki and not awakening.......

And the description probably says "like awakening" because they want to underline the fact that their action is the same as being awakened but there is no AB-body-change,that's exactly why i consider (for example) the awakened limbs with human form at the first step of the awakening since the youma part already has started to take control but the arm is not fully "evoluted" in its AB-form.

PS:This post is full of grammatical errors 'cause i didn't have a lot of time when i wrote it and i'm definitely too tired to correct it now,but it should still be quite understandable (i hope)

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2011-12-12 at 03:57.
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Old 2011-12-12, 05:39   Link #510
Asimati
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@MalakTawus
To be fair to Deneave, she does say that if Miria and Claire goes at full strength towards eachother, then the question is entirely depending on if Claire can keep herself together when pulling something like QoB, the strength is no longer in question.

I agree with you in the other discussion. For example Miria tries to go for full awakening in the end of this chapter, rather than trying a limb awakening. So it's quite clear that she doesn't have a technique for it. I'm guessing that she didn't get any hints from Claire on limb awakening based that it's extremely dangerous and also breaks any yoki cloaking.

IMO a full awakening is the merging with the human mind and the "yoma" mind. And the higher yoki levels you use, the stronger that yoma presence become until you're above 80% where it starts to pull by itself and needs to be supressed somehow (the normal means you use at lower levels are no longer possible, since it's the normal limit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
Obviously a silly, and extreme, example. But, in a more general sense, the fact that people can still talk about who's stronger than who, every month for the last several years shows that Yagi doesn't really follow any hard and fast laws of strength beyond Plot Advancement, since this is a piece of fiction, and everything within it only serves to advance whatever preconceived story Yagi has in his brain. Not the other way around. Remember, this is really a shoujo manga, though it manages to not be as blunt about as say...Naruto/Bleach. Power ups, protagonists and antagonists talking each other to death, etc, actual strength of an individual is always quite meaningless as an author can-and will-pull something out of thin air to dictate any given fight going the direction he/she wants it to. I mean, you can't try to attach logic to the system since most of it is made up and constantly made up at that. Most of it actually makes little sense if you wanted to be rational about it all. But, that's why it's fantasy, I suppose.
Yes it is the power of the plot that dominates, like in all works, but the power system has been fairly consistant here, unlike say Bleach. Now I agree that Yagi is not always entirely consistant, but it's still within coherence enough to be described (but having a severe lack of sufficient data), even if it requires interpretation on some scenes. So either he tries to keep it in mind, or actually has it written down.

For example, having the ghosts doing well vs Hysteria without somehow having Hysteria slowed down would be a severe breach of the inner consistancy of Claymore showed this far and is thus improbable.

If it's pure plot armour, then things can make very little sense. I suspect Clarice got plenty for example, since her death would probably trigger AO Miata, yet having her vs Hysteria would be insane. Pure plot armour would make a nice comedy thing though.
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Old 2011-12-12, 09:57   Link #511
MalakTawus
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Quote:
To be fair to Deneave, she does say that if Miria and Claire goes at full strength towards eachother, then the question is entirely depending on if Claire can keep herself together when pulling something like QoB, the strength is no longer in question.
You are right about that,in fact i know that Deneve is generally a very trusted source of informations,but i still think it's quite evident that she tends to overstimate Miria compared to Claire,i mean, it's true that during Miria VS Claire fight none of them was serious,but it's still quite clear that the two were on the same level even at 0%,and surely if there was any difference it wasn't as clear as Deneve said.
Deneve answered Helen question as if the only way that Claire can compare (and surpass) Miria is when she uses her "limitless drive", if not the difference is very clear...........but during that duel Claire didn't use (obviously) her "limitless drive" and sure as hell Miria didn't dominate the fight at all(as soon as Claire started using the WC of course,before that doesn't matter).

So yes,i still think that Deneve was wrong when she compared Claire and Miria, she also didn't even mention the fact that Claire has the immense advantage of her prediction ability (infact they weren't comparing the two at 0% yoki,they were comparing the two in general),unless Deneve considered Claire's prediction part of her "limitless drive" pack,it's not that clear.
....Deneve also didn't consider (or greatly understimated) the fact that as soon as Claire decides to release yoki,she can return using the QS,while Miria can only improve a bit her phantom, and sure as hell Miria's phantom + yoki doesn't seems to be even close to match the new QS.
We have seen very clearly that the final strenght of a warrior is HEAVILY influenced by their special abilities and techniques, and i have the clear sensation that Deneve was understimating (AGAIN) Claire a lot since she's not great just thanx to her crazy drive,she's great 'cause she possess one of the most fearsome techniques ever created (if not the most fearsome of all) combined with Teresa's prediction ability........and sorry if i think that in a normal battle Miria is no match for Claire anymore,even without Claire going crazy.
In conclusion IMO Deneve is indeed biased (A LOT) in Miria's favour when she did that comparison,especially if we consider that she was talking in general,not at 0%........unless,like i said before, Deneve considered all Claire's special ability part of her "unlimited drive",but it would be a bit unfair,lol.
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Old 2011-12-12, 16:25   Link #512
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
@Asimati

In conclusion IMO Deneve is indeed biased (A LOT) in Miria's favour when she did that comparison
Yes she is. Deneve has pride and im sure that she might be a little angry that a lower rank has completely surpassed her in terms of power. She respects Miria as a leader and a warrior, while she calls Clare a "spoiled brat". So yes she is bias.
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Old 2011-12-13, 00:08   Link #513
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Malak I did answered your question about why did Jean didn't brake free (I don't know why does that has to do with this subject), I said because she was hurt and weak for all the torturing she endured (actually Sagara Souske was the one who came up with the explanation and I agreed with it). And that because she was scare and because she was just holding back. I have no Idea what this has to do with anything related to the fact that I saw a chained butterfly humanoid, that wasn't an awakened being, but a claymore hanging on to her humanity.

And that body change or partial awakening (it was you who brought the term not me) is the same thing I saw with Alicia, Clare and the tranee twins (I agree with Claymore! the autor should reveal the twins names, they are family now) only difference is that they can use it to their advantage (I said it before). I'm not seeing things, Jean was a big butterfly in chains and Clare saw this and the potential it had and sort of copied it from her. And you have not answered my question, what's Jeans condition called at the witches maw when her body was all morphed like that?

Actually I haven't said that losing your soul/spirit/etc is a fact, but I strongly believe that thats the case and I gave Rubels words as an example, and it makes lots of sense to me because it makes a line between Claymores and awakened. What I did say I considered a fact was this:

Quoting ATM:
"No one can do a full awakening and comeback, you canít return from the other side when you become the other side. I havenít seen such a thing through the whole manga and itís like saying that a Claymore can revert to being 100% human again. Maybe in the future I will see these paradigms broken, but right now itís what it is."

And you seem to agree with this statement lately, so I don't know whats all the fuzz about.

I also want to ask you something else, if Clare trully did learn the partial awakening from Irene, then why didn't she use a partial awakening against Ophelia or later on againt dauf before he defeated her and before Galatea showed up? You are probably going to say "oh she was too rooky" And why did she used it at the war in the north after she witnesed Jeans transformation? You are probably gonna say "oh its because by then she has become a seasoned warrior". But you will manage to keep Jean out of the equation.

But I don't find tabu the fact that Clare did learned something from watching Jean and applied it at Pieta, not because Irene this and that.
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Old 2011-12-13, 05:23   Link #514
MalakTawus
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I have no Idea what this has to do with anything related to the fact that I saw a chained butterfly humanoid, that wasn't an awakened being, but a claymore hanging on to her humanity.
Ehm,i NEVER said that she was an awakened being,i said that her body was full awakened,BIG difference.
Also the excuses that she was too weak is not that belivable since she joins the fight as soon as she's back.
I'm not saying that she wasn't scared of course,i'm saying that if she really was able to awaken only parts of her body she surely would have been able to awaken only one arm and free herself as soon as she was left alone (and btw when she was left alone she surely was still human,if not Gala would have noticed).
The reason why she was so scared is 'cause she couldn't awaken her arm at all,so she was unable to free herself, so she knew that there was nothing that she could do to avoid awakening.

Quote:
And that body change or partial awakening (it was you who brought the term not me) is the same thing I saw with Alicia, Clare and the tranee twins (I agree with Claymore! the autor should reveal the twins names, they are family now) only difference is that they can use it to their advantage (I said it before).
I know that warriors that use the soul link can do it,but they need two people,and btw they can do it exactly 'cause they know a specific technique to obtain that result.
With soul link they can even fully awaken their body,something that is too dangerous for a single warrior since she has to control everything alone.
Btw Claire and the twins can do partial awakening 'cause they have special techniques that help them, but all the other warriors have nothing like that so it doesn't makes sense for them to be able to use partial awakening.
Quote:
And you have not answered my question, what's Jeans condition called at the witches maw when her body was all morphed like that?
I actualy already answered: Jean's body was fully awakened but thanx to her will she was able to mantain her human mind for a bit even in that situation,BUT this doesn't mean that Jean knows how to awaken single parts of her body. Claire could do it only 'cause she knew the QS's concept to focus 100% the yoki only in a single part of the body letting ONLY that arm awaken.

Quote:
Actually I haven't said that losing your soul/spirit/etc is a fact, but I strongly believe that thats the case and I gave Rubels words as an example, and it makes lots of sense to me because it makes a line between Claymores and awakened.
I know that this is a valid speculation,i simply said that it could also be wrong and in the future we may see someone return human after being an AB.
If your speculation is right than it's impossible to return human for an AB, and that's ok.
Personally i belive that in the future Claire will awaken completely to fight against Prissy and somehow come back "human" after the fight (maybe not as soon as the fight ends).....or maybe Prissy herself will be brought back to "human" by Claire, even if something huge should happen for Claire to change her mind so much.
Anyway all this is a 100% speculation,Yagi could go both ways.

Quote:
"No one can do a full awakening and comeback, you can’t return from the other side when you become the other side. I haven’t seen such a thing through the whole manga and it’s like saying that a Claymore can revert to being 100% human again. Maybe in the future I will see these paradigms broken, but right now it’s what it is."

And you seem to agree with this statement lately, so I don't know whats all the fuzz about.
Yup,i definitely agree that for what we have seen so far in the manga it's definitely not possible to come back human if you become an AB (but just to be clear,Jean wasn't yet an AB,only her body had a full awakening,but her mind,the most important thing,was still human).
I simply speculated that in the future MAYBE Claire could be an exception to this rule thanx to her different body,and maybe it's really difficult but not impossible to revert an AB like Prissy since it seems she really has part of her mind that is still "innocent" (her child-persona)......but like i said this is nothing more than speculation for the future,for now AB stays AB.

Quote:
I also want to ask you something else, if Clare trully did learn the partial awakening from Irene, then why didn't she use a partial awakening against Ophelia or later on againt dauf before he defeated her and before Galatea showed up? You are probably going to say "oh she was too rooky" And why did she used it at the war in the north after she witnesed Jeans transformation? You are probably gonna say "oh its because by then she has become a seasoned warrior". But you will manage to keep Jean out of the equation.
No no no.You misunderstood what i said.
I haven't said that Irene teached Claire to do something as crazy as the QoB,lol.
Irene simple gave Claire the means (the QS's concept: focus yoki only in the arm letting it awaken,BUT not letting the yoki escape from the arm and affect your mind) to awaken ONLY one part of her body without losing control.
Obviously in the beginning Claire would have never thought of trying something more crazy than the QS (that was already enough crazy as it was,lol).
It's true that Jean was the one that gave Claire inspiration that MAYBE with an amazing willpower she could be able to control something even further than he QS,BUT this doesn't mean that Jean could do partial awakening,Jean may have been the one to give Claire inspiration,but it's only thanx to the QS concept that Claire was able to awaken ONLY her limbs,Jeans doesn't know the QS's concept so she can't awakens only her limbs like Claire did.
In conclusion, Jean gave Claire the inspiration for QoB mode,but Claire was able to do it only cause Irene teached her the QS.
Without the QS concept,if Claire would have tried in Pieta to simply copy Jean,she would have done a FULL BODY AWAKENING.....and sure as hell she wouldn't have been able to control something like that since her mind would be affected almost immediately (especially since she was in a fight against someone.......as if it wasn't enought that someone killed her friends.....).
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Old 2011-12-13, 05:40   Link #515
Asimati
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Originally Posted by Claymore! View Post
Yes she is. Deneve has pride and im sure that she might be a little angry that a lower rank has completely surpassed her in terms of power. She respects Miria as a leader and a warrior, while she calls Clare a "spoiled brat". So yes she is bias.
Nah, the issue would be that Deneave feels insufficient. She had been spending most really important fights simply regenerating after taking severe wounds early on, while Claire pulls out an extra level and is crucial for victory.

I wouldn't say spoiled brat, but Claire certainly got issues.
Her focus on being a dead woman walking and only living for a suecide attack on Pricilla isn't exactly mature. To put it this way. Miria going solo vs the org was stupid. That's Claire's standard mode, kept moderatly in check by sending other ghosts with her (since she does care about other warriors), unless there's a direct sight of Pricilla. That single mindness is quite possible the mistake mentioned by Raphaela (that did the same with Luci).
She's still one of my favorite characters, but considererate and mature is not words you use on Claire. I would say that there's more to life than killing Pricilla is one of the major character arcs for Claire.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:59   Link #516
Claymore!
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I wouldn't say spoiled brat, but Claire certainly got issues.
Well i wouldn't call Clare spoiled either. That's just what Deneve said. Because "spoiled" is certainly not the word i would use to describe her. But yes Clare is a little strange, personality wise. She tries so hard to not show her feelings but everyone can basically understand what she feels. Deneve also said that although she tries to remain calm, there is a lot of spite in her.
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:18   Link #517
Asimati
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It's probably poor translation. I can see this part: ""excessive, self-centered, and immature behavior". It includes lack of consideration for other people, recurrent temper tantrums" fitting Claire a bit, while the rest (that I left out) doesn't. And since the cause is described to be spoiling your child too much, it's quite a poor fit.

No claymore can ever be called spoiled and it making sense.
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Old 2011-12-14, 20:27   Link #518
Guido
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Originally Posted by Asimati View Post
No claymore can ever be called spoiled and it making sense.
According to whom?
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Old 2011-12-14, 20:56   Link #519
ATM
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I understand what you mean when you say that Clare is the only one that has been able to get control of awakened parts of her body because she won a big battle by doing so; and that no one else has been able to return from that state (exept for Jean, but even Jean was unable to control her awakened body and gain some benefit out of it; even in the fight in the north Jean wasn't able or didn't wanted to try to go through the awakened body experience again). I guess this is were we see things diferently, I mean I agree with SagaraSouske (and with myself) that the concept is there for the grabbing; that Jean did it and was maybe a few steps away from mastering it, and that if Clare can do it, eventually so can the others; it's very difficult to do but it's doable.

Clare's body it's different I agree, but it's not that different, I mean it's also composed of human and yoma flesh (and a bit of Teresa's love in the mix), but what I think that makes Clare to stand out and be exeptional is that she is smart (she learns quickly and thinks fast in difficult situations) and her willingness to take risks going all in (even Teresa was amazed at Clare's stubborness and determination back when she was just like 8?). That's why I think she is able to do some of the things that she does, and that's why I think that Helen, Deneve and Miria ( and maybe others)at one point in the future might be able to do too, because they are also smart and determined. I noticed that claymores tend to lose focus and get a bit scared when they come across something new (like when they fought a male ab for the first time), they are conformists. The Mibs managed to make them strong warriors but castise their confidence in order to control them and make them follow all their rules. Maybe that's why they are afraid to try new stuff. I do remember that Clare was the first Claymore to learn 2 special techniques while every one else had just one (and I thought that mastering 2 techniques was impossible), after that I have seen Helen and others do so as well following her example. They didn't saw Jean at the witche's Maw, but they have seen Clare do it, so I believe there will come a time were they might have to try that partial awakening.
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Old 2011-12-14, 22:48   Link #520
Friday
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hey fellow bloggers...
if you not gonna talk about this chapter and only talk about Clare & Priscilla and other non chapter related story(yoki strength, QS etc......)
kindly put them in the appropiate thread and not here.

wtf ZAO?
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