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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 87 51.18%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 53 31.18%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 8.24%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 4.12%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 1.76%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.76%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.59%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.18%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-13, 15:24   Link #261
Iron Maw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
The only problem Alexander has for Saber is pride. She has no pride in her history of leading her country. She regrets her actions and wishes a qualified king to take her place. Where both Gilgamesh and Alexander think highly of themselves as accomplished Kings.

Nobody want's a king who always thinks of himself as a failure.
Right, I have no some people keep thinking otherwise. He was criticizing her as a person in her position not a her actual rule.

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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Well, that's because however nicely, pompously, or charismatically anyone makes his point, it's the substance that matters, and frankly Saber would be more useful in a kitchen rather than leading people to their idealistic doom
Nothing wrong with a King who has idealism as long as it's handled with moderation. I much prefer that to the other King who mainly looks out for himself due to being blinded by simple greed. That's more glorified bandit than a leader of man.

Quote:
By the way, I also read some comparisons between Arthur and Alexander here... should I remind everyone that one is a historical figure and his kingdom did exist in reality, while the other just a character of legend without any substantiated archaeological evidence to even hint to a real world equivalent... so comparing the too is somewhat invalid
There a lot of people who still consider even Author to be a myth, so that can still apply to him/her too.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:37   Link #262
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There a lot of people who still consider even Author to be a myth, so that can still apply to him/her too.
Please tell me you're joking...
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:42   Link #263
Iron Maw
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I'm serious, there are a lot of people who still think he doesn't exist, at least not the one described in legends anyway.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:53   Link #264
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Dude, he was talking about Alexander. Alexander definitley existed.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:58   Link #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Right, I have no some people keep thinking otherwise. He was criticizing her as a person in her position not a her actual rule.

Nothing wrong with a King who has idealism as long as it's handled with moderation. I much prefer that to the other King who mainly looks out for himself due to being blinded by simple greed. That's more glorified bandit than a leader of man.
Idealism itself is not the problem, rather the consequence of stubbornness, naivity, stupidity, etc. Not good for rulers as for who is better from the three, if you ask me none, but then again this comes from a nihilist

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There a lot of people who still consider even Author to be a myth, so that can still apply to him/her too.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Please tell me you're joking...
Who is Author? Arthur? If so, dunno, I am no expert in the subject, but I have not heard/seen anything except renaissance and later poems/songs, which quite frankly does not make substantial proof, hardly an indication
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Old 2011-12-13, 16:16   Link #266
Iron Maw
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Dude, he was talking about Alexander. Alexander definitley existed.
Whoops, really misread that.

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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Idealism itself is not the problem, rather the consequence of stubbornness, naivity, stupidity, etc. Not good for rulers
Hence "moderation". It can bring about good things when balanced accordingly.

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as for who is better from the three, if you ask me none, but then again this comes from a nihilist
All three leaders are really extreme so, you're not really alone, nihilism aside.
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Old 2011-12-13, 16:20   Link #267
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Idealism itself is not the problem, rather the consequence of stubbornness, naivity, stupidity, etc. Not good for rulers as for who is better from the three, if you ask me none, but then again this comes from a nihilist
I will point again that Gil alone didn't suffer form a rebellion when he was alive. his country wasn't torn apart by civil war after his death. Sumeria last quite a bit longer then either Arturia's Welsh Britannia or Alex's Hellenistic Empire.
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Old 2011-12-13, 16:37   Link #268
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I will point again that Gil alone didn't suffer form a rebellion when he was alive. his country wasn't torn apart by civil war after his death. Sumeria last quite a bit longer then either Arturia's Welsh Britannia or Alex's Hellenistic Empire.
Well, Gilgamesh was also less of an ass during the latter years of his life if I remember correctly. Gilgamesh's way of Kingship left little room for interpretation by his subjects, which also meant they were less prone to contest them.

Where Arturia's and Alexander's kingdom relied on the abilities and attributes of that specific iconic individual to hold their kingdoms together, Gilgamesh's kingdom relied more of the concept of the King's divine authority.
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Old 2011-12-13, 16:48   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I will point again that Gil alone didn't suffer form a rebellion when he was alive. his country wasn't torn apart by civil war after his death. Sumeria last quite a bit longer then either Arturia's Welsh Britannia or Alex's Hellenistic Empire.
I should point out though that the times they existed in were different.

For Alexander he's a conquering King so having him around during peaceful times is not ideal. The majority of his life was about fighting and conquering and exploring. If his men didn't stop him he would've been fighting the Chinese and if he didn't died he'd also be fighting the Nubian kingdom as well. Even after Caesar finished dealing with Pompey he was already planning to invade Parthia in the east and this was after he fought for nearly a dozen years in France (Gaul).

King Arthur on the other hand ruled during a tough time where it wasn't all about conquering but defending and maintaining a kingdom so she had a ton of internal politics to deal with. Unfortunately as we saw while she was a just king she was distant and cold which alienated her retinue and helped brought her downfall.

Though I am annoyed that Gilgamesh stayed quiet most of the time. I mean this guy ruled for what? 126 years? That's a hell lot longer than either Saber or Rider so they shouldn't even be bickering LOL
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Old 2011-12-13, 16:52   Link #270
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Although Saber's ideals are noble to behold, you kind of have to wonder what kind of people would respect a leader that has no respect for themselves and their abilities of a leader.

Being a good person is very different from being a good leader.
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Old 2011-12-13, 16:55   Link #271
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And yet bizarrely she had Level B charisma during FSN so just what the fuck is going on there?
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Old 2011-12-13, 16:59   Link #272
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Yeah, this pretty much how I see it. Frankly while I really like Rider's character and agree with some of what he said, I would still prefer Saber's way of Kingship. Her rule provided a strong country that could continue even without her leading. Her fault really only lies in rather her lonely and fatalistic views than govermentship.
...what?

Her country crumbled before her death. Without Arthur, the people were slain and drove back the saxons invaders who she had fought against. Yeah, I can see... long term continuation, right...
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:02   Link #273
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To me, you donít follow a leader because he is something to be envied (although the prevalence of Ďpop idolsí in todayís world is counter-proof of this. Ok lets face it, people want to have something to worship)

I personally would follow a leader who puts duty above everything else, who holds himself to the highest standard, and gives much of himself and doesnít expect something in return...unfortunately it usually makes the leader appear cold and emotionless (reflected well in Saber here)

I would take offence to calling Alexander a tyrant in the exact definition of the word, heís more like benevolent dictator or something, but he certainly used his country to fufill his own desires, and the country came to believe that it was their desire as well because of his exceptional leadership. Seeing Ionion Hetaroi was amazing though.

On Saberís side, isnít her view that Ďthe king must serve its peopleí actually a very early and primitive form of democracy? While personally I find it hard to be harsh on her for such an admirable ideal, I must agree with all who say that it makes her an unsuitable king in a way. Itís like having Louis and Maire-Antoinette instigate the French Revolution..ok extreme example

I hope the two get a rematch, maybe one that will end in a semi-draw. Its important to have desires but its equally important to have ideals.
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:08   Link #274
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Well, Gilgamesh was also less of an ass during the latter years of his life if I remember correctly. Gilgamesh's way of Kingship left little room for interpretation by his subjects, which also meant they were less prone to contest them.
Say what you about Gil being a Ass, it work. His people didn't have complain much except for Gil getting first dib on the virgin in the wedding
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:10   Link #275
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I hope the two get a rematch, maybe one that will end in a semi-draw. Its important to have desires but its equally important to have ideals.
I don't think that's the issue with Saber. If she were to king-up and stand for what she believes instead of ORZ MY RULE WAS A FAILURE I'LL WISH MYSELF BACK TO FIX IT, then she wouldn't have been the laughing stock of Gilgamesh and earn Rider's disappointment.
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:15   Link #276
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Although Saber's ideals are noble to behold, you kind of have to wonder what kind of people would respect a leader that has no respect for themselves and their abilities of a leader.

Being a good person is very different from being a good leader.
well, while i think she was plagued by self doubt, she never showed any form of weakness outwardly, and to the people she appeared cold and distant but not 'weak'. in fact i think an ideal leader isn't one who is completely lacking in self-doubt (over confidence is bad too, anytime gilgamesh loses a battle is proof of this), but one who does not show his/her self-doubt

or maybe the self doubt only really kicked in after she saw the hill of Camlamn?
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:29   Link #277
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well, while i think she was plagued by self doubt, she never showed any form of weakness outwardly, and to the people she appeared cold and distant but not 'weak'. in fact i think an ideal leader isn't one who is completely lacking in self-doubt (over confidence is bad too, anytime gilgamesh loses a battle is proof of this), but one who does not show his/her self-doubt

or maybe the self doubt only really kicked in after she saw the hill of Camlamn?
i think her faith and belief was shaken when a certain knight once said - "King Arthur could not understand the heart of others."
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:57   Link #278
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I don't think that's the issue with Saber. If she were to king-up and stand for what she believes instead of ORZ MY RULE WAS A FAILURE I'LL WISH MYSELF BACK TO FIX IT, then she wouldn't have been the laughing stock of Gilgamesh and earn Rider's disappointment.
what i meant was that since their noble phantasms are so perfectly representative of their ideals and beliefs as kings, then when they match up to show one is superior than the other would be saying that one way if kingship is better than the other.
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Old 2011-12-13, 18:04   Link #279
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think he faith and belief was shaken when a certain knight once said - "King Arthur could not understand the heart of others."
including his wife's

So where is the speculation on Berserker's ID? I favour Lancelot over Mordred and the Black Knight

Last edited by Malkuth; 2011-12-13 at 18:06. Reason: quoting
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Old 2011-12-13, 18:41   Link #280
Proto
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It could be anything actually. There's a plethora of medieval knight tales and identities for the black knight. And Nasu has demonstrated that he is not afraid of choosing some of the heroes from not so well known lore.
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