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Old 2011-12-14, 07:18   Link #2201
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
@monster

Even tho i know zaft is a militia, it may be still used as an official military branch which seems to be the case here. So the argument about military professionalism imo is still a valid point in regards to this topic.
But I think it only goes so far. It may explain why Lunamaria would not hate Shinn for killing her sister, or at least why she would be able to forgive him. But it would not necessarily explain why she would all of a sudden be his girlfriend. I think, for that, it's emotional reaction and not military discipline that is the deciding factor.
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Old 2011-12-14, 07:31   Link #2202
winter45
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@monster

I personally dont think anyone was really saying that due to her ethics, discipline, skills etc.. from her occupation she fell in love with Shinn. Besides that i totally agree with you.

Last edited by winter45; 2011-12-14 at 07:38. Reason: spelling
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Old 2011-12-14, 09:33   Link #2203
kaito-kid
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Like I said before it's triple betrayal. She saw with her own eyes the person whom she idolizes betraying her trust (Athrun, an elite ZAFT war hero betraying his country)
?? betraying her trust? If anything I am pretty sure she doubted the chairman from that point on. This becomes evident when she later on tries to talk about the chairman and/or Meer with Shinn on multiple occasions, only to be interrupted by Ray. She never trusted the chairman completely..

I think you just misunderstood Luna's character. She never talked about it openly not because she is a 'proper soldier' as you put it. but simply because she was never part of any conversation. 90% of her screen time was spent on her saying "Athrun.." or "Shinn..."


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her sister betraying her, AND both of them ran off together. Again, jealous minds fills in the gaps, imagine the amount of jealousy and hate a girl whom just saw her crush runs off with her little sister, on top of which both are traitors of the country she is loyal to. They've set it up plenty of reasons for Luna to turn to Shinn.
jealousy? hate? hahah did you even watch the show? Not for even for a second did she show any of this. For the most part she just looked confused and worried at that point.

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Nice rational thinking because she looks like someone there for she would react in a defined way????
ohh god.. That was a joke! (Where is that troll face when you need it.)

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She is a red shirt. If you can't even remember something so trivial I really doubt you can remember the details on why the situation Luna saw was convincing.
..... You really don't understand what i'm talking about or are just pretending? Incase you really missed my point: Luna wears a ZAFT elite uniform and NEVER, EVER showed to be anywhere close to the other red suits. Ep 43 being her lowest point..

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Come again? There are countries that indoctrinate *REAL* soldiers that the state is more important than their own beliefs/self interests.
Well that's just sad.. But since you're soldier, I'll take your word.
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Old 2011-12-14, 11:10   Link #2204
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In the first assualt on logos Rey complimented her fighting and she said "dont forget im a red suit aswell"

Shes always wearing a red suit not a green one like all the other "normal soldiers"
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Old 2011-12-14, 11:21   Link #2205
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Lunamaria is not attracted toward Shinn because she is a professional soldier or because she is a patriot. Rather, it is because Lunamaria is a girl who has just been thrown into a difficult situation. Essentially, Lunamaria is forced to face the fact that her sister had tried to desert with a man she admired and may even have a crush on and that they died for their effort. Suddenly, Shinn, the closest friend Lunamaria has on Minerva became the only person she could rely on for emotional support. Now, it might seem strange that Lunamaria would rely on the person who may have killed her sister, but Lunamaria probably could see why Shinn had to do what he did and they were already friends before that incident. And in the end, Lunamaria's need to be with someone she knows (recall that she just lost her sister) is probably a bigger factor as to why she would be drawn to Shinn, overriding the fact that Shinn is the person who allegedly killed her sister in the first place.
I think Luna also feels that this was also hard on Shinn. Shinn is a guy who weights his own feelings before anything else. For him to follow orders and kill people near to him, there's a conflict within reason he did what he did. Both of them are devastated by the event. Keeping resentment to Shinn would only be bad for both of them in duty. They needed the support of each other to carry on.

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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
?? betraying her trust? If anything I am pretty sure she doubted the chairman from that point on. This becomes evident when she later on tries to talk about the chairman and/or Meer with Shinn on multiple occasions, only to be interrupted by Ray. She never trusted the chairman completely..
She also doubted Athrun, from what I remember. But the one who drew the last straw was Athrun. He deserted the military (of course, with reasons unknown to her) (military) and dragged Meyrin with him (personal).
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Old 2011-12-14, 12:57   Link #2206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
?? betraying her trust? If anything I am pretty sure she doubted the chairman from that point on. This becomes evident when she later on tries to talk about the chairman and/or Meer with Shinn on multiple occasions, only to be interrupted by Ray. She never trusted the chairman completely..

I think you just misunderstood Luna's character. She never talked about it openly not because she is a 'proper soldier' as you put it. but simply because she was never part of any conversation. 90% of her screen time was spent on her saying "Athrun.." or "Shinn..."
Again, as mentioned by others, you're basing your reasons on what you, the audience watching the series, feels based on what you know that she COULD NOT have totally known at all times since it happened within the story, so "screen time" is not a valid reason really outside of our own opinion as the viewers.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
jealousy? hate? hahah did you even watch the show? Not for even for a second did she show any of this. For the most part she just looked confused and worried at that point.
Who says she had to openly, obviously show it? We don't know exactly what she was THINKING in that moment.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
..... You really don't understand what i'm talking about or are just pretending? Incase you really missed my point: Luna wears a ZAFT elite uniform and NEVER, EVER showed to be anywhere close to the other red suits. Ep 43 being her lowest point..
That doesn't change the fact that, regardless of how her performance was on-screen, she IS a red in the series. If she didn't show she was beyond adequate enough and/or the superiors didn't trust her performance at all, they never would have made her a red, must less trust something like the Impulse Gundam to her after Shinn moved on to the Destiny.

From a viewer's point of view, it's obvious that she performance (and others) was severely downplayed really to allow the "real stars" a.k.a. Kira, Athrun, Shinn, and Rey to shine more.



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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
Well that's just sad.. But since you're soldier, I'll take your word.
Real military does do this, which comes with the whole lawful/unlawful order bit I posted before. If anyone has any intention of joining the military, they better be ready to put any personal beliefs they have in the back of their minds outside of free time they may have.

Civilians like us may like to think it's so harsh, cruel, etc, but that's simply how it's done; for the good of the country itself and that's something every country has in common really. As I said, if we were to allow all our soldiers to act on their own beliefs, then the military could not properly function.
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Old 2011-12-15, 04:58   Link #2207
winter45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
..... You really don't understand what i'm talking about or are just pretending? Incase you really missed my point: Luna wears a ZAFT elite uniform and NEVER, EVER showed to be anywhere close to the other red suits. Ep 43 being her lowest point...
To be fair your responses using *red shirt* as a description comes off as if your referring to her position, not her abilities, Hence why posters are troubled with your angle of replies.

Ill throw in my opinion.. excluding shinn and named red coates just about all other red coats are just as awfull as the green coats. I really didnt see much of a skill difference between these two classses of soldiers and for what little non named red coats we did see in combat just served more as unskilled fodder than their superior abilities as the title *elite* would suggest.
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Old 2011-12-15, 12:53   Link #2208
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It's a sad thing really.

Even if they're supposed to be elite pilots, unless you're a named character that plays some sort of importance in the series, then you're just like any other grunt really. If you're named, but don't really play any big importance in the long-run (like Lunamaria, Heine, etc), then you're only slightly better than the former and able to take down grunts easily enough, but still get royally owned by more important named characters.
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Old 2011-12-15, 13:18   Link #2209
monster
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Red shirts only you mean you graduated top in your class at ZAFT Academy. The key word there is "your class." I guess the class that Lunamaria graduated with may just had a lower than average students.

Also note that getting a red shirt doesn't mean that you're better than every green shirt soldiers or that you're an elite. And plenty of green shirt soldiers would get better simply through experience.
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Old 2011-12-15, 16:39   Link #2210
winter45
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A system where your overall position determines your status instead a measured ranking of skill.. not the best method to identify ones true ability. Seems rather backwards to me.

This would explain the awful skill performance of the general wide *elite* class.
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Old 2011-12-15, 16:48   Link #2211
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I'd like to know where all this "Redcoats suck!" talk is coming from. I've seen all of SEED and most of Destiny, and I'm not seeing how they have terrible skills.
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Old 2011-12-15, 17:12   Link #2212
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A lot of it is spread because of Lunamaria's performance as opposed to ones like Shinn, Rey, and such. =\
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Old 2011-12-15, 18:24   Link #2213
monster
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
A system where your overall position determines your status instead a measured ranking of skill.. not the best method to identify ones true ability. Seems rather backwards to me.
What status? Do you realize that Miguel, who wore a green shirt, was in command of the group that attacked Heliopolis?

There is no actual rule that says someone wearing a red shirt ranks above someone wearing a green shirt. Only a white/black shirt implies some kind of status/position. But the fact that those who are given red shirts are those who graduated top of their respective classes, that shows that those people have performed better (at least academically) than those who were given green shirts. But that kind of comparison can only be applied with people who graduated in the same class, not to the entire ZAFT forces.
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Old 2011-12-15, 19:41   Link #2214
winter45
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@Rising dragon

Ive also seen both series and my personal take is that they are pretty bad. MY opinion only but when spoiled with UC and some AU series with grunt performances i find it difficult to take zaft pilots in comparison seriously.

@monster

Position as in score (he came first in his pilot class even tho his score is very low) and his default status is now elite. Oppose to, you passed SAS/NAVY SEALS minimum requirement tests you are now part of the ELITE!!!

Last edited by winter45; 2011-12-15 at 19:54.
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Old 2011-12-15, 19:59   Link #2215
monster
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Position as in score (he came first in his class) and his default status is now elite. Oppose to, you passed SAS/NAVY SEALS minimum requirement tests you are now part of the ELITE!!!
They're not really equivalent, I think. Saying you're a member of ZAFT red is a different type of recognition than saying you're member of a special forces group. It's more like saying that you're a part of a group that is supposedly more talented than the rest as evidenced by how well you performed at the academy rather than saying that you have received specialized training.
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Old 2011-12-15, 20:02   Link #2216
winter45
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Combat piloting is a form of specialized training.
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Old 2011-12-15, 20:05   Link #2217
monster
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Combat piloting is a form of specialized training.
Perhaps, but not every US Navy pilot is a member of SEAL, right?
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Old 2011-12-15, 20:37   Link #2218
winter45
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My example originally is intended to explain the difference between how one is scored based on a classroom overall ranking (first in class as example) regardless of actual results to become an elite status oppose to one must pass a minimum requirement of criteria to become elite which the real world uses. Of course this is an anime show and is not subject to use standard RL methods but I do find it backwards.

But after some thinking on how to say this, red shirts is more of a classroom top position success reward than actually a recognition of achievement on passing a minimum of high level skills requirements which is what i was trying to get at.
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Old 2011-12-15, 20:48   Link #2219
monster
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But after some thinking on how to say this, red shirts is more of a classroom top position success reward than actually a recognition of achievement on passing a minimum of high level skills requirements which is what i was trying to get at.
Indeed, I think of it more of an extension of the cum laude honors type that some universities, like those in the United States, have.
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Old 2011-12-16, 16:01   Link #2220
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