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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-15, 20:17   Link #381
Sasukemaru
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The Jinchuuriki kage is most famous for being tobis puppet, needless to say that is not an impressive feat.
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Old 2011-12-15, 20:24   Link #382
Akashin
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Well any ordered list would be different for any person, I tried to make a very unbiased list. I think the 6 paths of pain showed more then the current naruto, of course it would only take a few chapters to change all that, but I couldn't imagine pain struggling as bad as naruto is against tobi right now.

I think it would be clear that post time skip sasuke is stronger then gaara from the deidara fights, and many ppl would consider tsunade the weakest battle kage, which is why I had her behind gaara.

As far as Izuna and the white fang is concerned, that is mostly from reputation, Izuna was said to be a close second to ms madara, which is why I marked him high.
Fair enough. With regards to Tsunade, I simply find it difficult to believe that Sasuke was anywhere near Kage level before getting the MS, so putting him above Tsunade felt off simply for that. Putting post-time skip Sasuke above Gaara wasn't something I intended to argue too strongly though; I think Gaara could beat Sasuke (pre-MS, anyway), though I think the opposite is possible too.

With Sakumo, I always got the impression that his reputation (before it was dragged through the mud anyway) was right up there near Minato's during the 3rd War, and that his skills should have reflected that. Again, the lack of physical evidence regarding his skills makes this a tough call, though. For Izuna I hadn't given him that much thought, but your logic has some sense to it.

Between Naruto (Nine Tailed Cloak) and the Six Paths of Pain, I mostly recall Nagato's claim that Jiraiya would have defeated the Six Paths had he been aware of all their powers from the beginning (whether that's true or not). I'd like to think that, if Jiraiya could win with the right knowledge, Naruto as he currently is should surely be able to do the same. I wouldn't put Naruto above Nagato for sure, but I see no reason to believe Naruto wouldn't be a match for the Six Paths. Using Naruto's current fight alone doesn't really make Naruto weaker, I don't think.
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Old 2011-12-15, 20:35   Link #383
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That makes sense akashin, I wouldn't put time skip sasuke on a kage level either, but in the few fights tsunade has had, she has been extremely unimpressive. I don't think I would consider her the cliche kage level fighter either. I get what you're saying a out naruto/pain, but I would just like to see more before he tops the all time top 10, same for ems sasuke for that matter. I think nagato was just pointing out the huge flaw in his justu, hell hinata could take him if she knew he was just some cripple hiding in a tower.

And before anymore talk about how the 4th a d 5th mizukage could take sasori you should remember, sasori is the strongest ninja from the sand EVER
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Old 2011-12-15, 20:36   Link #384
Ricky Controversy
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The premise of this thread is fundamentally flawed because the terms 'strongest' and 'best' are neither defined nor interchangeable.

'Strongest,' I can safely assume, is supposed to mean 'possessing the most power,' but that's pretty difficult to parse out, as there are different types of power. In the obvious sense, you have combat prowess, but this can be subdivided into taijutsu, genjutsu, ninjutsu, weapon skills, raw chakra levels, endurance, tactical ability and efficiency. Do you count a bijuu's power into an evaluation of the jinchuuriki? Beyond even that, you have things like charisma, intellect, political power, wealth and leadership.

'Best' leaves us with an even more fundamental question: what is a shinobi's function, so that we can determine at what they are meant to excel. Early in the series, shinobi were painted primarily as paramilitary organizations, nominally aligned with their host nations, but serving ultimately as mercenaries to private clientele where more conventional groups were not viable. As the series progressed, the mystical aspects of shinobi became more prominent, and we saw less and less actual espionage/sabotage/bodyguard contract work as the Shippuden plot asserted itself. Since then, shinobi have become more and more like wizards, and their apparent role became that of 'magical army.' But even if we were to stick to the more interesting presentation given in the earlier parts of the manga, 'best' would still be uncertain. Is the 'best' shinobi the most anonymous? The quickest? The most versatile? Can a shinobi who primarily takes on assassination work (Kakashi) be compared to a shinobi who primarily takes on intelligence work (Inoichi)? Can either of them be fairly compared to a shinobi who specializes in training others (Ebisu)? Is a great shinobi just a truly effective mercenary, or should a shinobi be a visionary, with his own ambitions and the skills to pull them off?

The Rikudou Sennin certainly is important as the founder of the shinobi world, and is quite possibly the most powerful spellcaster in the story. But he wasn't actually a shinobi himself, he was a priest, and to judge by his legacy--splitting the Juubi and training others in his ways--he seemed more concerned with protecting the world from the bijuu than establishing a worldwide phenomenon of magical warriors. It's a curiosity of fiction that it tends to idolize originators, despite the fact that they are almost never the best at what they do, and Rikudou Sennin was not the 'best' shinobi.

I could spend all evening reasoning through the 'best' or 'strongest' shinobi in various categories, but I'm just going to pick the definition that resonates the most with me: the political assassin and saboteur. I choose this angle because it's the most interesting to me; it's a trivial thing for a writer to make up big magical powers for his characters, and it is often unsatisfying due to the thoughtlessness with which such things get toyed with to allow the story to continue: eye-based powers, which started off with the relatively tame basic Sharingan, are the ultimate buffoon's tool for forcing stalemates and pulling undeserved victories out of the ether. Political intrigue, infiltrations, manipulations and betrayal, however? This is fascinating; this is what a story about shinobi should deal with.

In that regard, Orochimaru is the supreme shinobi of the series. He orchestrated massive societal upheaval and amassed power sufficient to the task in utter secrecy; no one knew what he was up to until he had already moved all of his pieces into place and he elected to reveal himself. Even the act of revealing himself was a carefully calculated move: it simultaneously pushed Sasuke over the edge into his myopic quest for power, which would lead him into Orochimaru's clutches; and it exacerbated the damage done to international peace by the Sunagakure and Otogakure attack on Konohagakure. It went from being a sudden attack by two nominally peaceful but tense neighbors to being an alliance between those nations and one of the two most wanted traitors to Konoha alive. Orochimaru left Konoha only after his extensive human experimentation and agitations for the post of Yondaime Hokage were discovered, meaning that Suna and Oto were seen, by extension, as collaborating in a coup not just to defeat Konoha's military power, but to wipe it out and absorb it into their allied territory as a platform for further aggressive expansion. Orochimaru played off all the fears and history associated with his name, and even when his immediate mission failed, he still got his more crucial long-term objective (Sasuke) and caused the death of Sarutobi Hiruzen, leaving a massive power vacuum that, in a story with more realistically treated politics, would have achieved the same goal of starting a world war that Orochimaru had aimed for.

He also displayed extreme shrewdness with regards to Akatsuki. Knowing his personality, he undoubtedly joined seeking to gain new insight into jutsu and progress towards immortality. However, it became apparent to him that Itachi would present an obstacle in his efforts to use the group, one he lacked the power to tackle directly. A typical villain of his power would have probably tried to stick it out pridefully. Orochimaru cut his losses and left, but not before planting Kabuto as a double-agent in Sasori's "service" so that he could stay apprised of Akatsuki's movements. Again, he turns loss into gain.

He is also the shrewdest observer and manipulator of character in the series, knowing exactly how to gather like-minded, capable allies and subordinates. While some see him as a path to power and others revere him like a god, many of his greatest subordinates, as we see them, are fiercely loyal to him. This is his true strength: though he may not have been fit as a kage for Konohagakure, the desginated 'good guy' village, he had all the right skills to be a kage, and despite its small size, Otogakure was probably the most effective paramilitary machine around during its existence.

Orochimaru, Shodai Otokage, was the 'best' shinobi. Danzou, Kakashi, Itachi and Zabuza occupy a stand-out tier below him, but have considerable failings that make them fall short of the mark.
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Old 2011-12-15, 22:03   Link #385
itachi-san314
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Uh, no. Killerbee WHOOPED Hebi. He only "lost" because he gave up so he could take a vacation.
uh no. he was completely beaten by amaterasu... he had no counter except a very good replacement for escaping. he was also whooped by kisame who was whooped by gai

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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
First off, gai never whooped kisame, everytime gai and kisame fought he had a handful of ppl helping him.
first off, yes he did. i dont know how you could even think this...

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Second, did you not just see that it took itachi, a powered up naruto, and bee to stop nagato? Yes I said nagato, not his 6 paths of pain.
second, did you see sagemode naruto beat a living pain with his 6 paths single handed? are you saying itachi couldn't beat SM naruto? itachi was calm the whole time zombie nagato was defeated. they worked together because he was teaching naruto a teamwork lesson.

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Again, sage naruto fought the 6 paths of pain, not nagato himself who naruto admitted was far more powerful, and sage naruto didn't even beat pain, pain had already fought every leaf ninja worth fighting, then destroyed the leaf, then handed sage naruto his ass, then locked up 6 tails naruto before he had to go 8 tails, then fought sage naruto again, then had enough chakra left to revive a whole village. If you think naruto could just use sage mode and take nagato on all by himself you my friend are retarded.
good job being wrong and a jerk. go for the trifecta and respond with more nonsense

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Itachi is my favorite character, but him top 3 or 5 is a joke.
name ALL these people who can beat itachi in his prime then. for your favorite character you know shockingly little about him

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Lastly, sasuke didn't beat bee, not only did he not beat him, but his whole team got owned by him at once. I suggest you reread some chapters.
It is clear that you are the one who does not grasp what you read or see and makes inane arguments based on your own made up story in your mind

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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
Well any ordered list would be different for any person, I tried to make a very unbiased list.
true, I just think it's way off. again look where you have SM and KM Naruto. it doesnt make any sense

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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
But if you want to be technical, #46 gaara could hold his own with #6 hashirama.
how would gaara hold his own against hashirama? he got dominated by deidara who was relatively on even par with pre MS sasuke
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Old 2011-12-15, 23:24   Link #386
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I don't see your beef with pain being stronger then sm naruto, pain already fought the hokage, kakashi, and countless other ninja before beating sm naruto, if you recall hinata stepping in saved his life. Pain already checkmated him in that fight, then lOcked him up when he went 6 tails, and then naruto was bailed out my minato. Pain beat naruto in like 5 minutes even after destroying a whole village, sm naruto is nOt in the same league as pain, let alone his true power as just nagato. Naruto would have lost on several occasions without intervention against a weakened pain who single handedly demolished the strongest village.

You seem to think naruto is the strongest character, it's proved time and time again he still has a lot to learn, he will undoubtably be the strongest at the end, but he isn't there yet.

Again, everybOdy ahead of itachi are ppl that are obviously superior, you can't name one person I put in front of him he can actually beat.

Gaara could hold his own with anybody in the series, it's almost laughable you say deidara dominated him. If he didn't have to protect a whole village while fighting it may have turned out a lil different.

If it makes you feel better when itachi WAS in his prime only 2 ppl ahead of him were in existence, nagato and tobi. So itachi would be #3 for his time, but with all the generations included, he falls between 15-20 easily.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-12-16 at 00:05.
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Old 2011-12-15, 23:47   Link #387
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I don't see your beef with pain being stronger then sm naruto, pain already fought the hokage, kakashi, and countless other ninja before beating sm naruto
true, but naruto was also fresh off of training to become sage mode so he had used up a lot of chakra too. they are both uzumaki so I assume they recover chakra quickly. they both obviously had a ton to use on each other for that insane fight. kakashi and tsunade were no trouble at all for pain so they didnt drain much anyway (especially if you compare it to how much he used vs naruto)


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if you recall hinata stepping in saved his life. Pain already checkmated him in that fight, then lOcked him up when he went 6 tails
hinata is so weak she definitely cannot be said to have 'saved' his life. her only purpose there was to make him angry enough to transform into 6T naruto (which is all the same person btw. the character of naruto at that exact point in time is what we are debating so it doesnt matter if he's using the kyuubi or not, it's all the same naruto)

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and then naruto was bailed out my minato.
bailed out in the fight? no. he helped him return to normal. minato did absolutley nothing to hurt pain or bail naruto out in fighting/strength terms.

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Pain beat naruto in like 5 minutes even after destroying a whole village
no idea what you mean. naruto beat pain. its so blatantly obvious i'm not going to go into detail about it.

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sm naruto is nOt in the same league as pain, let alone his true power as just nagato.
again, doesn't make sense. he's not in the same league, yet he beat him?

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You seem to think naruto is the strongest character, it's proved time and time again he still has a lot to learn, he will undoubtably be the strongest at the end, but he isn't there yet.
i totally agree and i never said or implied that naruto is the strongest

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Again, everybOdy ahead of itachi are ppl that are obviously superior, you can't name one person I put in front of him he can actually beat.
by this logic you can't say that they would beat itachi either... you have to base these assumptions about characters that never actually fought in the story on what they did against others. just the fact that you have 6tails naruto ahead of itachi shows that you are not doing this. itachi would have easily beaten 6T naruto based on the facts that orochimaru was on par with 4 tails and orochimaru was substantially lower in power than itachi. and that the sharingan can easily subdue the kyuubi's chakra as we have seen on several occasions.

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Gaara could hold his own with anybody in the series, it's almost laughable you say deidara dominated him. If he didn't have to protect a whole village while fighting it may have turned out a lil different.
deidara CAPTURED gaara which is way harder to do than kill him. therefore he dominated him. its never good to laugh at logic my friend also, saying gaara could hold his own against anyone is just silly...
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Old 2011-12-16, 06:50   Link #388
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And before anymore talk about how the 4th a d 5th mizukage could take sasori you should remember, sasori is the strongest ninja from the sand EVER
Which says absolutely nothing in comparison to two Mist ninja, both of whom are two of the strongest people ever produced from their village. And that's ignoring the fact that a poisoned Sakura and poisned Chiyo combo took Sasori out...
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Old 2011-12-16, 06:52   Link #389
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^ Ofcourse they took him out, did you expect him to win?

That's a bit shady.
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Old 2011-12-16, 07:20   Link #390
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@itachi-san314

You are downplaying valid points here. Yes, Naruto defeated Pain, but yes, he was nowhere near Pain's level. How is that possible? Naruto got help. Who helped him? Let's see . . .

- The entire village, by exhausting Pain a bit before the battle even began
- Tsunade's slug, by giving vital information and by healing Naruto
- The fact that Naruto came into the battle prepared, and with two clones charging energy in a place unreachable for Pain
- Hinata, by being stupid enough to almost die, enraging Naruto
- The Kyuubi, by feeding on Naruto's rage and going eight-tails mode
- Minato, by having implemented a failsave in the Kyuubi's seal

Pain defeated Naruto. It would have all been over, if it wasn't for the Kyuubi, who took over. Naruto did not draw power from the Kyuubi, it was the ninetails, who overtook Naruto's body and went on a rampage. Neither Pain or Naruto would have won that battle without Minato, but the Kyuubi. You can't count the Kyuubi's doing in that fight as actions taken by Naruto. Naruto was out. He had no control over the situation whatsoever. Without Hinata's stupid sacrifice, there was no way in hell Naruto could have actually defeated Pain, even with all the other help he received. In the anime, there has been no greater display of power than Pain's. Nothing even comes close. If Pain and Naruto would have met under normal circumstances, alone in some place, without ever having heard of one another, wihtout help, and without being prepared to battle their specific opponent. Pain would have crushed Naruto. He would have wiped the floor with him, without taking a single hit and without breaking a single sweat.

SM Naruto defeated Pain, but he was worlds below his level.
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Old 2011-12-16, 10:01   Link #391
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I couldnt have said it better myself @goten

The point I will concede is 8gates gai being stronger then kisame, and when I get around to updating my list it will reflect that, however I will not or will I ever put sm naruto ahead of pain, ppl like sm cause it looks cool or whatever, bit it has already become obsolete against the current opponents.

And you still think deidara dominated gaara? I understand trying to capture somebody alive is a lot harder then trying to kill somebody, but trying to protect 10s of thousands of ppl while trying to fight is a WHOLE lot harder then trying to capture somebody alive, even still, if deidara had dominated that fight he wouldn't have spent most of the time running from gaara, and he would have left the fight still having both of his arms.

Also, sasori let chiyo and Sakura win which chiyo commented on at the end of the fight, further proof of how strong he was is oro setting a trap for him and having help from kabuto to tag team him at once. Sasori is being highly underrated by you because of his short stint. I mean, the guy killed the strongest kazekage to ever live without anybody even knowing what happened to him. In sasori's fight as an edo, he just decided to let himself be sealed, the group he was fighting didn't stand a chance against him, even the cocky deidara showed sasori a tremendous amount of respect, and deidara wanted to kill oro because he didn't share that respect with sasori and abandoned their team.

Like I said before, the 4th mizukages greatest feat was being mind raped by tobi into being a puppet, nothing he did compared to sasori's accomplishments, and seeing how the 4th and 5th mizukage are around the same age, I can only surmise he is stronger then her, hence being named mizukage before her.

Last edited by Sasukemaru; 2011-12-16 at 10:18.
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Old 2011-12-16, 13:45   Link #392
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@itachi-san314

You are downplaying valid points here. Yes, Naruto defeated Pain, but yes, he was nowhere near Pain's level. How is that possible? Naruto got help. Who helped him? Let's see . . .

- The entire village, by exhausting Pain a bit before the battle even began
- Tsunade's slug, by giving vital information and by healing Naruto
- The fact that Naruto came into the battle prepared, and with two clones charging energy in a place unreachable for Pain
- Hinata, by being stupid enough to almost die, enraging Naruto
- The Kyuubi, by feeding on Naruto's rage and going eight-tails mode
- Minato, by having implemented a failsave in the Kyuubi's seal

Pain defeated Naruto. It would have all been over, if it wasn't for the Kyuubi, who took over. Naruto did not draw power from the Kyuubi, it was the ninetails, who overtook Naruto's body and went on a rampage. Neither Pain or Naruto would have won that battle without Minato, but the Kyuubi. You can't count the Kyuubi's doing in that fight as actions taken by Naruto. Naruto was out. He had no control over the situation whatsoever. Without Hinata's stupid sacrifice, there was no way in hell Naruto could have actually defeated Pain, even with all the other help he received. In the anime, there has been no greater display of power than Pain's. Nothing even comes close. If Pain and Naruto would have met under normal circumstances, alone in some place, without ever having heard of one another, wihtout help, and without being prepared to battle their specific opponent. Pain would have crushed Naruto. He would have wiped the floor with him, without taking a single hit and without breaking a single sweat.

SM Naruto defeated Pain, but he was worlds below his level.
you called it on that one. hey i love naruto but come on he did not really defeat pain, or not all alone, a point we hear about sasuke all the time, as a matter of fact lately naruto has had his own fair share of getting pulled out of the fire.(killerbee) which is strange. it kind of seems like the more powerful naruto has become, the more times he has been saved lately. granted we have to look at who he is fighting, but its not like the people sasuke was mixing it up with are push overs. the fact is often in naruto he comes in all power up, when the villian has fought and used up a lot of charka. i mean pain was really fighting a whole village when naruto came into the picture, that had a large effect on the outcome of that fight. i dont see how you can really reject that.
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Old 2011-12-16, 14:32   Link #393
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
Like I said before, the 4th mizukages greatest feat was being mind raped by tobi into being a puppet, nothing he did compared to sasori's accomplishments, and seeing how the 4th and 5th mizukage are around the same age, I can only surmise he is stronger then her, hence being named mizukage before her.
Though not really a concern given my above argument, I do feel obliged to point out that the alternative is that the 4th Mizukage was judged easier to manipulate. If power were the sole criterion, and Tobi had no need to take personality into account, then he would have Itachi under his thumb, rather than Sasuke.
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Old 2011-12-16, 16:00   Link #394
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@itachi-san314

You are downplaying valid points here. Yes, Naruto defeated Pain, but yes, he was nowhere near Pain's level. How is that possible? Naruto got help. Who helped him? Let's see . . .

- The entire village, by exhausting Pain a bit before the battle even began
pain was not exhausted

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Tsunade's slug, by giving vital information and by healing Naruto
people get intel about their enemies all the time. are you assuming pain knew nothing about konoha?

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The fact that Naruto came into the battle prepared, and with two clones charging energy in a place unreachable for Pain
clones are used in every battle just about. it's not a cheat, its a technique of fighting

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Hinata, by being stupid enough to almost die, enraging Naruto
hinata did nothing. you cant assume that the kyuubi wouldn't have taken over without her interference. naruto was just listening to what pain had to say. he wasnt defeated and he wasnt incapable of going into KM without her

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The Kyuubi, by feeding on Naruto's rage and going eight-tails mode
this is naruto... its all him. just having the kyuubi inside him and living through its chakra is difficult and hardly anyone else could do it but naruto.

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Minato, by having implemented a failsave in the Kyuubi's seal
read my previous post, because you obviously didn't get what I said about minato or hinata. they did nothing vs pain in battle terms

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Pain defeated Naruto.
wrong. wrong wrong... lol stop saying pain beat naruto. ok. sasori beat sakura and chiyo. deidara beat sasuke. jiraiya beat pain. kakuzu beat naruto. how do you like it?

if you want to go down the road of saying naruto didnt beat pain because of the kyuubi then you have to discount all of bee's fights since he uses the 8 tails. and anyone who uses summonings as well (*ahem* NAGATO DOES!), which I hope you will see as faulty logic eventually. they are all techniques and modes that 1 person is using in a fight

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SM Naruto defeated Pain, but he was worlds below his level.
terrible comment. stop saying it lol

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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
The point I will concede is 8gates gai being stronger then kisame, and when I get around to updating my list it will reflect that
7 gates. 8 will kill him or so it is said.

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however I will not or will I ever put sm naruto ahead of pain, ppl like sm cause it looks cool or whatever, bit it has already become obsolete against the current opponents.
strawman argument. it doesnt matter that its obsolete in the future. we're talking about a specific moment in time when it was relevant

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And you still think deidara dominated gaara? I understand trying to capture somebody alive is a lot harder then trying to kill somebody, but trying to protect 10s of thousands of ppl while trying to fight is a WHOLE lot harder then trying to capture somebody alive, even still, if deidara had dominated that fight he wouldn't have spent most of the time running from gaara, and he would have left the fight still having both of his arms.
deidara knew he could sacrifice arms and get them back thanks to kakuzu. he never showed signs of worry about that.

I'm a big sasori supporter so I think you're next comments are for someone else. anyway, I recall you laughing about me saying sasuke beat bee and that was with bee using the 8 tails, yet when naruto uses the 9 tails you give him no credit for withstanding that form. it's very hypocritical. also sasori uses puppets and pain uses summonings. are they discounted by your logic as well? and what about weapons? the bottom line is that a ninja can use whatever he wants in a battle. that was explained a long long time ago when kiba fought naruto using akamaru. its all fair in battle with ninjas
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Old 2011-12-16, 16:12   Link #395
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Itachis power had already reached it's peak @ Ricky, sasuke has already passed up itachi with his new ems, or most evidence would support anyway, and sasuke is still only 16 which is a good 10 or so years from his actual prime. Sasuke has a much higher ceiling then itachi, and if oro saw that I'm sure tobi did too.

And back to the debate about sm naruto, if hinata didn't get in the way the rod would have impaled naruto and it's game over, him going 6 tails is actually the kyuubi fighting not naruto who was unconscience. So it really isn't comparable to bee going full bijuu because bee is still the one in control.
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Old 2011-12-16, 16:20   Link #396
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
And back to the debate about sm naruto, if hinata didn't get in the way the rod would have impaled naruto and it's game over, him going 6 tails is actually the kyuubi fighting not naruto who was unconscience. So it really isn't comparable to bee going full bijuu because bee is still the one in control.
its not a direct comparison. i'm saying it's comparable to using anything but your actual human body to fight, which almost all ninjas do, including summoning animals which have their own personalities and will as well (usually)

edit: also, you cant assume naruto wouldnt use the demon cloak to break free without hinata interfering. he most certainly would have, unless you believe naruto to be the type of character to give up and concede his life to someone else
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Old 2011-12-16, 16:35   Link #397
Sasukemaru
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I'm not assuming anything so neither should you, 99 percent of the ppl who saw that fight knows pain is more powerful then sm naruto. Also using a summoning is something the ninja does, using a weapon is also something a ninja chooses to do. However getting possesed most certaintly isn't, once he went 6 tails it was the kyuubi vs pain, not naruto vs pain.
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Old 2011-12-16, 16:44   Link #398
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
Itachis power had already reached it's peak @ Ricky, sasuke has already passed up itachi with his new ems, or most evidence would support anyway, and sasuke is still only 16 which is a good 10 or so years from his actual prime. Sasuke has a much higher ceiling then itachi, and if oro saw that I'm sure tobi did too.
Even suspending that issue, it doesn't really change the fact that Itachi was a far more convenient pawn in many ways for a number of years, with the sole exception that he wasn't easy to manipulate: he kept his own council, unlike Sasuke, who wears his heart out on his sleeve. Sasuke received the grooming and externally-gifted powers he did owing to his simplicity: Tobi can point him at his target and let him run wild with the simplest words.

Of course, it all becomes speculation when discussing Yondaime and Godaime Mizukage, as we have little to compare them by; I was merely suggesting that it is equally possible he was chosen by Tobi because he was the weaker-willed or more naive, and thus easier to manipulate.
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Old 2011-12-16, 17:13   Link #399
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
I'm not assuming anything so neither should you, 99 percent of the ppl who saw that fight knows pain is more powerful then sm naruto. Also using a summoning is something the ninja does, using a weapon is also something a ninja chooses to do. However getting possesed most certaintly isn't, once he went 6 tails it was the kyuubi vs pain, not naruto vs pain.
I'm not sure you understand that naruto is a jinchuuriki and that the kyuubi is sealed in him. pain didnt fight the kyuubi. he fought the kyuubi sealed inside naruto with a 6 tailed cloak and then an 8 tail cloak with naruto's body underneath. if you want to go down the control road, then you have to factor in that kabuto is controlling the zombies of the characters you have placed near the top which should negate their posistions since they are not technically themselves. i dont agree with that but you should if you stay true to this belief about naruto not being naruto when he has the cloak

edit: also, lets not lose sight of the fact that all 6 paths of pain were beaten by SM naruto. don't believe me? reread/rewatch and see for yourself. KM naruto began after SM naruto beat 5 paths and ended before deva pain was beaten by SM naruto

Last edited by itachi-san314; 2011-12-16 at 17:28.
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:14   Link #400
Sasukemaru
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I'm done arguing this with you, if you want to live in the fantasy world where sm naruto is more powerful then pain be my guest, everybody else seems to base their reasoning on common sense, and that's good enough for me.
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