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Old 2011-12-16, 18:46   Link #4901
LostSome
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Maybe she talks out of experience rather than direct contact with the boy? She doesen't get to know Tohma that closely but boy she got to know Curren xDU
Why is the only thing that come to my mind is : A puppet knows her puppeteer."

I wonder how many Strosek the hulks have...

To Isis and her fashion dream !
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:50   Link #4902
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Actually giving a reason for Touma to want to join this group other than being a nice guy? They were nice to him once, but also gave him a ton of reasons why they're bad people at the same time. There's no justification for this being a big choice here, because there's only one good decision. It's a flaw, and it doesn't make much sense. Sorry for being negative and noticing it.
What more reason does he need? He's a big boy and can make decisions for himself.

It's quite simple. "They're bad people" -> "But they were nice to me" -> "therefore they're not all bad..."

That's about all a good natured person needs to think they can change some one for the better.

Thoma going to that meeting will happen either way. You think the Bureau would pass up such an opportunity to get an agent on the inside? They'd be stupid not to go for it.
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:50   Link #4903
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I wonder how many Strosek the hulks have...
that's a good one...

Cypha: We're the HULKbein family!

*everyone shudders*

Cypha: yeah, that's the attitude >=D

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Thoma going to that meeting will happen either way. You think the Bureau would pass up such an opportunity to get an agent on the inside? They'd be stupid not to go for it.
Five bucks for Curren already seeing throught that plan and have countermeasures prepared for it xD!
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:56   Link #4904
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Do YOU have any better ideas? If not, please stop complaining. Thank you.
Launch a full-scale offensive to subdue them? Or at least disrupt their action whenever they make a move, which was the majority of TOS and A's?

The problem with him joining the f-Hucks, even as an attempt to subvert them, is that it will take time for him to earn that trust, time in which the Hucks will continue killing whenever the need arises. It seems that some people constantly forgot about this, maybe due to their leather jackets and fancy-looking weapons, but the f-Hucks kills people. I don't care whatever tragic reason they have, the fact is that they are killing people and they will keep on killing until they are stopped. And the more time they waste, the more people will die.

Have you watched any movie where a cop goes undercover as a mafia member? Ever seen the scene where they test his loyalty by asking him to kill a captured snitch/annoying cops/etc? How long do you think before the f-Hucks force Touma with a similar move as a way to ensure that he really is "one of them?"

Not to mention that they know he is associated with MS6, which means they would suspect that he's planted there.

Even hardened cops are known to have a breakdown due to the complexities of going undercover. Good luck expecting success from a teenage rookie who only had weapons training and nothing to harden his psyche
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:57   Link #4905
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Having actually gone back and read the thing as it is;

Touma does think “ thanks for not having left me in the forest to die after I kill all my friends k’ “, and doesn’t know how to phrase “thank you and all but you can sit on your proposal and spin.” Or alternately doesn’t know how to run with the good old Alone in the Dark response.

Wendi and Teana think that he might end up actually having to make any kind of a choice there, and say that he does have the right to go either way.

To get this straight: at no point in the Spanish scan is it shown that Touma actually thinks he should go with the Huckebein.

It’s still very stupidly scripted though, and the Spanish scan has been wrong before.

The only half way acceptable reason that I would tolerate for the indecision is the Eclipse working in a bit of a more subtle manner on his brain; “Don’t reject the Huckebein, why don’t you be friends with them? You’re a good boy, it’s not nice to hurt other people’s feelings. [psst massacres are soooo fun]”
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:58   Link #4906
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What more reason does he need? He's a big boy and can make decisions for himself.

It's quite simple. "They're bad people" -> "But they were nice to me" -> "therefore they're not all bad..."

That's about all a good natured person needs to think they can change some one for the better.

Thoma going to that meeting will happen either way. You think the Bureau would pass up such an opportunity to get an agent on the inside? They'd be stupid not to go for it.
I do agree on making decisions by himself.
The Numbers made their decisions themselves.

But if Hayate has such little fate in Thoma, I don`t see them saying just go.
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:58   Link #4907
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If Curren is to be believed they're trying to NOT force Tohma on his descicions.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:03   Link #4908
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Five bucks for Curren already seeing throught that plan and have countermeasures prepared for it xD!
Obviously. Even a five year old could see that possibility.

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Launch a full-scale offensive to subdue them?
Yeah, because they did so well against just a handfull of them. Fighting an even larger group will be a cake walk

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Have you watched any movie where a cop goes undercover as a mafia member? Ever seen the scene where they test his loyalty by asking him to kill a captured snitch/annoying cops/etc? How long do you think before the f-Hucks force Touma with a similar move as a way to ensure that he really is "one of them?"
Eatting kittens is the only way to be sure.

But seriously, the Huckebien have always treated Thoma well and emphasized that it's entirely his choice what to do and they won't force him to do anything. Curren just wanted him to come to the meeting, she didn't say anything like "Swear you'll join us and we'll let you attend the meeting."
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:03   Link #4909
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If Curren is to be believed they're trying to NOT force Tohma on his descicions.
That entirely depends on how she defines "force." She hasn't been caught doing it yet, but I in no way put it past her to be a bald faced liar when it suits her purpose.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:04   Link #4910
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But if Hayate has such little fate in Thoma, I don`t see them saying just go.
Pretty much, Hayate basically assigned Isis to prevent Tohma from fleeing to the Hulkbein faction.

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Yeah, because they did so well against just a handfull of them. Fighting an even larger group will be a cake walk .
And don't forget that said handful of Hulks trashed the bureau's finest while preparing lunch. So yeah, trying to subdue the whole family by force is asking for a sound beating followed by tons of apologize letter to the wives of those poor red/mauve shirts xDU.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:08   Link #4911
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That entirely depends on how she defines "force." She hasn't been caught doing it yet, but I in no way put it past her to be a bald faced liar when it suits her purpose.
Doing so would be counter productive. She's not just trying to recruit an employee she can use then toss away when she's done with him. She's trying to gain a new family member. Basing that on a lie devalues that relationship and things would turn out worse when the lie was inevitably exposed.

Besides, all the best villains can manipulate people solely by telling the truth. Isn't that right, Kirei?
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:10   Link #4912
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Yeah, because they did so well against just a handfull of them. Fighting an even larger group will be a cake walk
Yeah, because having an inexperienced rookie attempt to subvert an entire organization would work so well

And nobody said it will be a cakewalk. In fact, I expect that even countering and intercepting Huck raids will be bloody. But they're soldiers - it is their jobs to fight, and sometimes die, for the civilians they are sworn to protect.

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But seriously, the Huckebien have always treated Thoma well and emphasized that it's entirely his choice what to do and they won't force him to do anything. Curren just wanted him to come to the meeting, she didn't say anything like "Swear you'll join us and we'll let you attend the meeting."
Well of course. The first offer is always nice and benevolent-looking, otherwise recruits won't show up - "Join the Army, they said; See the world, they said". The ugly parts always show up later, when he's been with them for so long that if he wants to quit they can guilt him into not leaving.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:16   Link #4913
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There is a possibility if Curren intend to play with people's feelings around it.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:18   Link #4914
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Well of course. The first offer is always nice and benevolent-looking, otherwise recruits won't show up - "Join the Army, they said; See the world, they said". The ugly parts always show up later, when he's been with them for so long that if he wants to quit they can guilt him into not leaving.
Are we talking about the Hulks or TSAB ? I`m pretty sure Nanoha is the ugly part.

The Thread is doing a nose-dive into the morality debate again ! Mayday !
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:22   Link #4915
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Nah, more like a battle of wits rathe than morality xD

We already know the very real possibility of Curren trying to manipulate Tohma into helping her to achieve a much bigger goal the point is how Tohma can fall for it or how Curren will play her "big sister" cards on him. As also the reactions from Hayate, Teana and S6 as a whole.

There's also the possibility Curren is planning the total anhilation of Vandin Corp. and it's operation so she wants to gather the biggest amount of strenght as possible.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:22   Link #4916
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The only halfway positive thing I can say about this is that at least Hayate and Nanoha have recognized the point of having supervision/contingencies over their charges, and not just let them do whatever they feel like. Which sorry Lindy, you didn't quite get. Part of being an officer includes knowing when and how to call or order in help for something that gets over your head.

And yes, Caledfwich is about to deliver a sword.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:23   Link #4917
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It's quite simple. "They're bad people" -> "But they were nice to me" -> "therefore they're not all bad..."
Yeah, but here it's: "They're bad people" -> "But they were nice to me" -> "A member of them also said they would have killed me if we'd met before" -> "Hmmmm"

But here it's like he forgot the other part somehow. Maybe the virus is affecting him somehow, but that's giving a heck of a benefit of the doubt.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:31   Link #4918
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Nah, more like a battle of wits rathe than morality xD

We already know the very real possibility of Curren trying to manipulate Tohma into helping her to achieve a much bigger goal the point is how Tohma can fall for it or how Curren will play her "big sister" cards on him. As also the reactions from Hayate, Teana and S6 as a whole.

There's also the possibility Curren is planning the total anhilation of Vandin Corp. and it's operation so she wants to gather the biggest amount of strenght as possible.
Or possibly from the beginning she likes playing with the feelings of victims, whether the victim want to do this or that. Good or bad. To save or to destroy. Even if she wanted to to destroy Vandin.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:31   Link #4919
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And yes, Caledfwich is about to deliver a sword.
More like a gun, it will be nonsensical to give a sword when the sword user is still suspended from the battlefield. I bet it will be Teana's equipement.

I'm still not ready to see Laevatein's awful replacement XP
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:33   Link #4920
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Eh, he could always be thinking of them as victims as well. In the sense that they are not at all justified in killing other victims or in whatever crimes they may commit, but they do need intervention themselves. Save them, stop them, whichever.

It's still hopelessly idealistic and stupidly naive though. Rein might have had the blood of how many millions on her hands? But she wanted to stop. That's what it all comes down to. The first step to meeting each other half way has to be by free choice.

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More like a gun, it will be nonsensical to give a sword when the sword user is still suspended from the battlefield
"Es por eso que el arma tipo Espada de Caledfwich llega mañana"

Only way that's gonna work is if the gun type is literally called Sword. Or Espada.

And besides, Teana's stuff was supposed to be ready over two months ago. Remember chapter 17?
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