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Old 2011-12-17, 00:35   Link #4941
LostSome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
...right, like that other village which Louie or something (those two guys who somehow got headsplosion) started to attack.

Y'know what? Right now I care less about why they kill and more the fact that they do kill. A lot. Most of them against civilians who never provoked them and can't fight back. The damage has been done, and it is clear more damage will be caused unless the Bureau can start putting these raids in check. And sending Touma to join them and try to subvert them from the inside would be grossly ineffective.
The time skip of two months is really frustrating because of that.
Two whole months of getting caught in red tapes...
Thinking about that makes Nanoha`s happiness over her students rather... WEIRD.
Life at the Bureau as usual, it seems.
The panic of catching the Hulks ASAP from the attack on the Esquad is gone.
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Old 2011-12-17, 00:48   Link #4942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Okay, yeah. And?
And it shows they would have killed him because it was their job, not because they go out of their way to kill random survivors that just happen in be in the area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Y'know what? Right now I care less about why they kill and more the fact that they do kill.
You're taking a step in the wrong direction. Always exercise your critical thinking skills and look at the why not just the what.

Fate was going around shooting kittens and beating up Nanoha. The Wolkenritter were going around attacking mages and stealing their magic. If you just looked at the 'what' obviously they appear as horrible people. But when you factor in the why you can see that there's much more to it than that.

Never disregard the why.

Why do the Huckebien kill? Because they have to in order to live. It's not due to some ingrained evil, but an external factor compelling them to do so.

You expect Thoma to go "They kill so they're irredeemable evil trash" but he knows better than anyone that it's the virus's fault. So why wouldn't he want to try to convince others like him that there has to be another way, and that they should look for that way?

We know Thoma has enough power to make the others pay attention to him.
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Old 2011-12-17, 01:13   Link #4943
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Shouldn't that still make him lean towards no, though? It's a very small step above rampant murder, and it involves deciding how much your life is worth to snuff out. Going 'aw, don't worry, now we DEFINITELY won't kill you' doesn't put much of a band-aid on that.
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Old 2011-12-17, 01:23   Link #4944
Tiresias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
You're taking a step in the wrong direction. Always exercise your critical thinking skills and look at the why not just the what.

Fate was going around shooting kittens and beating up Nanoha. The Wolkenritter were going around attacking mages and stealing their magic. If you just looked at the 'what' obviously they appear as horrible people. But when you factor in the why you can see that there's much more to it than that.

Never disregard the why.
And never disregard the damage that has been done. The casualties are there and cannot be ignored. Whatever their reason may be, the fu-Huckebein must be stopped.

Remember Nanoha's words when dealing with unreasonable people? "I'm going to make you stop and listen." Stop and listen. Stop. People seem to forget that part.

When Fate refused to listen to her, did she just nag Fate with "hey, please listen to me" until the blond complied? No, she tried to stop her since those Jewel Seeds are very dangerous.

When the Wolkenritter refused to explain themselves, did she end with sending them strongly-worded letters? No, she tried to stop them since they're causing trouble.

Focus on the "why"s after these people are safe behind bars when they can no longer do harm. There will be plenty of time for talk then.
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Old 2011-12-17, 01:26   Link #4945
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How he 'should' feel doesn't matter. He's grateful for what they did for him and he doesn't think they're completely terrible people.

And where, exactly, did anyone say they shouldn't be stopped? Knowing the why makes it that much easier to stop them.
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Old 2011-12-17, 01:36   Link #4946
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My point is that I don't care about knowing the why's, it's useless. Maybe they want to save their dying, cancer-stricken kitten; maybe they need seasoning to eat their kitten with. Every criminal in history has their why's and that never stopped them.

Here's the only use of the "why": cold, hard intel. Knowing their background in an attempt to discern their movement and better formulate on how to defeat them. That's it.

Whatever sob story out there? Let the rehabilitation folks handle that. MS6 are magical SWAT/GSG-9, not psychiatrists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostSome View Post
The time skip of two months is really frustrating because of that.
Two whole months of getting caught in red tapes...
The panic of catching the Hulks ASAP from the attack on the Esquad is gone.
Two months...Kaiser knows how many villages had burned by then...and now MS6 are getting distracted by another faction.

Quote:
Thinking about that makes Nanoha`s happiness over her students rather... WEIRD.
Very weird. And you'd think the previous fiasco would have made the Bureau escalate a bit, maybe assign an additional ship. Sure, their weapons do jack sh1t, but at least there would be more area they can patrol.
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Old 2011-12-17, 01:39   Link #4947
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And I'm asking why when there's very little justification for that shown in the story beyond one thing that doesn't outweigh everything else.
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:05   Link #4948
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Because he's following his heart, obviously. You expect a teenager to be logical?
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:07   Link #4949
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Sure is Knight Templar in here.
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:11   Link #4950
Justin_Brett
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Yep, clearly it not making sense is purely because of the character and nothing else. I could accept it as him just being irrational if he just thought it would get him closer to who really destroyed his home, but apparently that's not why? He's barely mentioned it for a while, really.
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:17   Link #4951
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
We know Thoma has enough power to make the others pay attention to him.
Aaaaand Raiser just mentioned the reason for why Tohma is the new protagonist and is currently being trained by Nanoha xD.

When he learns the hard way that words alone can't change some people he will smack the Hulks heads and make them listen to him xD!

Subaru already graduated from befriending school with honors by befriending her own sister with a divine Buster in the gut xD!

Tohma is still attending "Befriending 101" xD
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:53   Link #4952
Koveras Alvane
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Uh, about Thoma. I dunno if this has been mentioned already, but we seem to forget that he is basically a different species from Team Nanoha--and the same as the Hucks. That would at least partially explain his attachment to them... He also experienced the Slaughter Compulsion (twice IIRC), so he probably thinks "if I dismiss them as evil, that makes me also evil, because it all in my body" (it probably isn't but how should he know?).

Now I know that the series has a long track of anti-speciism and everyone is treated as human unless they are a Complete Monster, but the different species angst has also been a big thing once (remember Fate angsting in A's about not being human and Lindy setting the record straight). And Signum has been so kind to remind him about his difference from the rest of the good guys just recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuze View Post
"Es por eso que el arma tipo Espada de Caledfwich llega maņana"

Only way that's gonna work is if the gun type is literally called Sword. Or Espada.

And besides, Teana's stuff was supposed to be ready over two months ago. Remember chapter 17?
*coughSilverDaggercough*
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Old 2011-12-17, 03:17   Link #4953
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Also, if "they were nice to me" is a weak reason for Thoma to want to be nice back to them, how about Nanoha's "I want to be friends with her because her eyes look sad"?
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Old 2011-12-17, 06:51   Link #4954
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Oh god, that's going to happen now that you said it.
What, you mean you weren't expecting this the moment you saw the loli? You know the team with the loli ends up at least partially converted. It's a Nanoha standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Thoma going to that meeting will happen either way. You think the Bureau would pass up such an opportunity to get an agent on the inside? They'd be stupid not to go for it.
Given that there's a risk of losing said agent to the group, there's something to be said for not letting him.

But on the flipside, given how evasive they are it could be a risk worth taking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
...right, like that other village which Louie or something (those two guys who somehow got headsplosion) started to attack.

Y'know what? Right now I care less about why they kill and more the fact that they do kill. A lot. Most of them against civilians who never provoked them and can't fight back. The damage has been done, and it is clear more damage will be caused unless the Bureau can start putting these raids in check. And sending Touma to join them and try to subvert them from the inside would be grossly ineffective.

Why? Because the Hucks know he associates with members of MS6.
Knowing someone is from the opposite side does not make one immune for psychological warfare. Just look at Fate.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I haven't mentioned Sword Breaker because i know it's the only single succesfull AEC-Equipement, and that's only half the credit for the equip, it's great success it's because the weapon is specifically designed to use and focus one of Subaru's very own powers, her Vibration Shatter, into a more specific function. something the other AEC-weapons don't do. Sword Breaker complements Subaru's already available arsenal, the other AECs hinder the potential of their users by forcing them to change tactics.
Don't forget Vita's warhammer which drilled a hole in a Divider the size of a goddamn battleship. Despite Vita's defeat at the hands of Curren, the weapon itself was highly successful.

The same goes for Fate's new blades, which held their own against Eclipse fighters just fine.

So that makes at least three of the weapons successful prototypes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And I'm asking why when there's very little justification for that shown in the story beyond one thing that doesn't outweigh everything else.
There was also very little justification for Nanoha to save Fate when she was almost killing herself gathering that swat of jewel seeds beyond "I think it's sad." Chrono and Lindy were going to wait until she knocked herself out before capturing both her and the seeds in one swoop.

Nanoha is a show that thrives on emotions trumping logic. It worked for Nanoha, it'll work for Thoma.
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Old 2011-12-17, 11:54   Link #4955
Akiyoshi
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Don't forget Vita's warhammer which drilled a hole in a Divider the size of a goddamn battleship. Despite Vita's defeat at the hands of Curren, the weapon itself was highly successful.

The same goes for Fate's new blades, which held their own against Eclipse fighters just fine.

So that makes at least three of the weapons successful prototypes.
The War Hammer case is a "Your Mileage May Vary" scenario, she make a hole to an "unreacted" divider, and we know those aren't that powerful(just ask Cypha about her experience in fighting Signum with an unreacted Divider xDU).

Sword Breaker is a more cloear sucess because it works not only once but twice the second time against freakin Tohma. But well, let's take your word and say there are two successfull AEC-Equipements, still Vita wasn't able to do much with that rocket on a stick besides knocking at the Huckebein's door xDU.

5th Gen Bardiche was the most notorious success but the credit goes to another project and not the AEC experiment. Which is good as the 5th Gen seems to be a more reliable solution to the Eclipse crisis, a solution more true to the principles of Magic that allow mages to keep fighting like mages(or Tsuzuki simply thinks Fate's powerset is too cool to be replaced, at least i agree with him on that one xD).

Following the trend that Caledfwich is only toying with the bureau and the revealed AEC-equipement is only part of their scheme, i theorize the 5th Gen Device project is an attempt of the TSAB to make their own independent brand of weapons that allow them to keep fighting menaces while still mantaining their code as also to avoid being dependant of military corporations that more likely will have less humanitary goals and interests.

And now a question...

...are Armed Devices too outdated to receive 5th Gen treatement?

i'm looking at you Laevatein -_-
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Old 2011-12-17, 12:04   Link #4956
Keroko
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Frankly, the Wolkies devices were outdated even before A's began, being how the book was several centuries old and all. The only reason they worked was because of plot and the whole "ancient weapons" trope.
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Old 2011-12-17, 12:50   Link #4957
Akiyoshi
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Frankly, the Wolkies devices were outdated even before A's began, being how the book was several centuries old and all. The only reason they worked was because of plot and the whole "ancient weapons" trope.
Well, the "ancient weapons" trope finally got subverted hard in Force(even the Dividers/Strosek are new technology xDU). So i'll guess it's time for an upgrade, we even got a bit of lampshade from 5th Gen Bardiche's 1st NEXT design xDU. But nope, it was only teasing, as always xDU.
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Old 2011-12-17, 13:50   Link #4958
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Copying something that worked before doesn't automatically make it fine.
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Old 2011-12-17, 13:52   Link #4959
Akiyoshi
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Copying something that worked before doesn't automatically make it fine.
Still raises the chances of success better than copying something that didn't worked xDU.
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Old 2011-12-17, 17:03   Link #4960
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Where is Steed now ?
Where is the best convienent non-combat terminal ?
I kind of become a fan after his awesome "Just throw me out a windom" line.
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