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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-16, 18:16   Link #401
Akashin
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I'm not sure you understand that naruto is a jinchuuriki and that the kyuubi is sealed in him. pain didnt fight the kyuubi. he fought the kyuubi sealed inside naruto with a 6 tailed cloak and then an 8 tail cloak with naruto's body underneath. if you want to go down the control road, then you have to factor in that kabuto is controlling the zombies of the characters you have placed near the top which should negate their posistions since they are not technically themselves. i dont agree with that but you should if you stay true to this belief about naruto not being naruto when he has the cloak
As far as the control argument goes, these are two entirely different situations. With Kabuto and the zombies the only thing that changes is the mind behind the characters' actions. To use the Third Raikage as an example, we can say with some certainty based upon his performance how strong he was. Further, we can say things like, "He'd be even stronger were he in control of his own actions, instead of Kabuto." And even then, not all of the zombies were under Kabuto's complete control (though Nagato was, and as such it's safe to say he'd be even stronger still were he alive).

With KM Naruto, you have to consider the two ways of drawing out the cloak. In Naruto's battle against Sasuke at the VoTE he drew out the One-Tailed Cloak all on his own and retained complete control over himself (albeit somewhat more feral), so we can say that Naruto's power during that battle was entirely his own. With the Four-Tailed, Six-Tailed and Eight-Tailed incidents, however, Naruto was clearly utterly mindless and under the Kyuubi's complete control. If we're splitting hairs you can say Naruto's body was behind those actions, but his mind definitely wasn't, and I think that's the key here.

Consider Ichigo's final battle with Ulquiorra in Bleach, when he was completely taken over by his Hollow. Would you still say that was Ichigo, and that he, and not his Hollow, won that battle? I consider Naruto and the Kyuubi to be a very similar thing.
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Old 2011-12-16, 19:32   Link #402
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^ Ofcourse they took him out, did you expect him to win?

That's a bit shady.
No, I was just saying while he might be the strongest Sand nin (though I think Gaara could beat him) it doesn't say much if he got beat by Sakura and Chiyo, both of whom we're poisoned at the time.

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Like I said before, the 4th mizukages greatest feat was being mind raped by tobi into being a puppet, nothing he did compared to sasori's accomplishments, and seeing how the 4th and 5th mizukage are around the same age, I can only surmise he is stronger then her, hence being named mizukage before her.
No, his greatest accomplishment was being a perfect Jinchuriki and a Kage. Even if we haven't seen much from him (which should soon change), reputation alone certainly has a lot of pull on your list. And Mei was strong enough to more than keep up with Sasuke and melt Madara's Sussannoo - so I don't think a defense exists on the planet that can stop her attacks.
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Old 2011-12-16, 20:30   Link #403
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
I'm done arguing this with you, if you want to live in the fantasy world where sm naruto is more powerful then pain be my guest, everybody else seems to base their reasoning on common sense, and that's good enough for me.
ok I'll live in the 'fantasy world' where naruto beat pain. you live in 'reality' where pain is alive and akatsuki collected the 9 tails...

seriously, just to make this clear in one sentence, you are refuting that SM naruto beat 5 paths and then deva pain, which is EXACTLY what happened
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Old 2011-12-16, 21:01   Link #404
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seriously, just to make this clear in one sentence, you are refuting that SM naruto beat 5 paths and then deva pain, which is EXACTLY what happened
Naruto won through intensive planning, outside help, and pure luck. If he hadn't had all of those things, he would have been killed by Pain multiple times.
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Old 2011-12-16, 21:53   Link #405
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Itachi-San, I think the fact that nobOdy agrees with you about sm naruto being more powerful then pain says it all, hell you said sm naruto is stronger then nagato himself. Enough said.

King, when I see the 4th fight I may bump him up. But as of now sasori comes off more accomplished. As far as mei is concerned she fought a completely depleted sasuke who could only muster up an incomplete susanoo, if she ran into him at full power I imagine that skirmish would look a lot different. You're also ignoring the fact sasori let chiyo and Sakura win. In fact as far as the manga goes he has never been beaten, both of his losses have been him choosing to not kill his grandma and allowing himself to be sealed.
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Old 2011-12-16, 22:01   Link #406
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As far as mei is concerned she fought a completely depleted sasuke who could only muster up an incomplete susanoo, if she ran into him at full power I imagine that skirmish would look a lot different.
....And Madara?
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Old 2011-12-16, 22:19   Link #407
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I'm not saying she can't burn through susanoo, I was just saying sasuke was severely weakened when they fought. However, there are plenty of one hit kills like hers, so even though her jutsu is powerful, a "I can't get hit by that" type of technique is not uncommon in naruto. Even though I believe mei could burn through susanoo, madara made no effort to try and stop her or any of the kages attacks. I got the sense he was gauging their powers, more then mei caught him off guard. Besides, every high level ninja who has gone up against susanoo has gotten past it, danzo, mei, gaara, tsuchikage, raikage. It's not so much an impenetrable defense as it is a counter attack. I mean, the opponent is incased inside a huge ethereal juggernaut that defends him, and can crush your whole body with one blow.

Last edited by Sasukemaru; 2011-12-16 at 22:33.
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Old 2011-12-17, 01:11   Link #408
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
pain was not exhausted
You think fighting an entire village and shortening your own lifespan does not exhaust you in the slightest?

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people get intel about their enemies all the time. are you assuming pain knew nothing about konoha?
Did Pain know about sage mode? No. Did Naruto know everything about Pain? Yes. Plus, you're ignoring the healing part.

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clones are used in every battle just about. it's not a cheat, its a technique of fighting
That was no normal situation. Naruto prepared those clones out of battle in the land of the toads, where Pain could not stop them from gathering natural chakra. What I'm saying is, that in a normal fight, you don't have that possibility.

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hinata did nothing. you cant assume that the kyuubi wouldn't have taken over without her interference. naruto was just listening to what pain had to say. he wasnt defeated and he wasnt incapable of going into KM without her
He was unable to go Kyuubi Mode without Hinata, because Kyuubi mode is not something he could willingly do. He wasn't able to control his powers at that point, and it just overtook Naruto's body, because Pain enraged Naruto by seemingly killing Hinata.

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this is naruto... its all him. just having the kyuubi inside him and living through its chakra is difficult and hardly anyone else could do it but naruto.
Wrong. Naruto had no influence on Kyuubi overtaking whatsoever. He was not even conscious anymore and it was definately not his decision. Because, like I said, he couldn't even control kyuubi mode.

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read my previous post, because you obviously didn't get what I said about minato or hinata. they did nothing vs pain in battle terms
That doesn't matter, they still supported him. It's easy. Without Hinata, there would've been no Kyuubi. Result? Naruto defeated. Without Minato there would've been no Naruto. Result? Kyuubi destroys Pain and Konoha.

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if you want to go down the road of saying naruto didnt beat pain because of the kyuubi then you have to discount all of bee's fights since he uses the 8 tails. and anyone who uses summonings as well (*ahem* NAGATO DOES!), which I hope you will see as faulty logic eventually. they are all techniques and modes that 1 person is using in a fight
That's exactly what you don't seem to understand. Bee is able to control the eighttails' power, just like Pain and everyone else is able to willingly cast Summonings to their support and fight alongside them. Naruto however, was not able to control the kyuubi's power and he did not use the ninetails' power in a fight, because he had no control over it in the slightest. There is a difference between Naruto using the Kyuubi's power and the Kyuubi going on a rampage himself. The fox just happened to take over without Naruto's will. And without Minato's seal, Naruto would be as good as dead because of it.
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Last edited by ZGoten; 2011-12-17 at 01:24.
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Old 2011-12-17, 14:23   Link #409
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
Itachi-San, I think the fact that nobOdy agrees with you about sm naruto being more powerful then pain says it all, hell you said sm naruto is stronger then nagato himself. Enough said.
you keep calling yourself 'everybody'... i've only been debating 2 people here who cant seem to notice that sm naruto beat all 6 paths of pain... well I say everybody who saw that fight knows that naruto won. enough said. it's silly to think otherwise. did nagato live and capture the 9tails? no. no he did not...

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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
You think fighting an entire village and shortening your own lifespan does not exhaust you in the slightest?
it does spend chakra sure, but compare it to how much pain used fighting sm naruto. it was a drop in the bucket. also don't forget that pain is uzumaki and recovers fast just like naruto

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Did Pain know about sage mode? No. Did Naruto know everything about Pain? Yes. Plus, you're ignoring the healing part.
how can you say nagato didn't know about sage mode? he literally just came off a fight with jiraiya who used sage mode...

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That was no normal situation. Naruto prepared those clones out of battle in the land of the toads, where Pain could not stop them from gathering natural chakra. What I'm saying is, that in a normal fight, you don't have that possibility.
like i said before people hide themselves and use clones all the time. kakashi did it with a lightning clone vs pain.


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He was unable to go Kyuubi Mode without Hinata, because Kyuubi mode is not something he could willingly do.
you cant know if he is unable to do it without her. i say its the opposite. reference his fight vs orochimaru. he willingly got mad and went into 4 tails mode.

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He wasn't able to control his powers at that point, and it just overtook Naruto's body, because Pain enraged Naruto by seemingly killing Hinata.
i dont think i ever said naruto had control over the 9tails in this fight. i totally agree that naruto had no control at that time, however it still is naruto. that 1 character at that 1 point in time is what this debate is about and that 1 character of naruto is capable of all these moves, clones, modes, whatever...

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Wrong. Naruto had no influence on Kyuubi overtaking whatsoever. He was not even conscious anymore and it was definately not his decision. Because, like I said, he couldn't even control kyuubi mode.
again you are not reading what im saying...

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That doesn't matter, they still supported him. It's easy. Without Hinata, there would've been no Kyuubi. Result? Naruto defeated. Without Minato there would've been no Naruto. Result? Kyuubi destroys Pain and Konoha.
you are making huge assumptions. as i said eariler in this post, naruto can let go and go into tailed beast mode. just look at his previous fights where he did exactly that.

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That's exactly what you don't seem to understand. Bee is able to control the eighttails' power, just like Pain and everyone else is able to willingly cast Summonings to their support and fight alongside them. Naruto however, was not able to control the kyuubi's power and he did not use the ninetails' power in a fight, because he had no control over it in the slightest. There is a difference between Naruto using the Kyuubi's power and the Kyuubi going on a rampage himself. The fox just happened to take over without Naruto's will. And without Minato's seal, Naruto would be as good as dead because of it.
im saying the control issue is moot. the discussion is about a character and what their power level is at a given time. you guys seem to want to take the kyuubi away from naruto's power so i'm saying that if you do that then you have to take away the powers from all the other ninjas who use things that are not their actual human form

edit: here's an example. take juugo for instance. when he goes into beast mode vs raikage is that no longer juugo because he doesn't have control of himself? is that not juugo's power level since he's out of control?

Last edited by itachi-san314; 2011-12-17 at 14:34.
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Old 2011-12-17, 14:42   Link #410
Akashin
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
how can you say nagato didn't know about sage mode? he literally just came off a fight with jiraiya who used sage mode...
It's worth noting that, while Nagato may very well have known of Sage Mode, he clearly did not know of its abilities (and one of his Paths got totaled for that very reason, as I recall).

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like i said before people hide themselves and use clones all the time. kakashi did it with a lightning clone vs pain.
This is different. The clone situation he referred to are two clones kept far out of reach, where they were pretty much free batteries to give Naruto an extra boost. Sure, people use clones to assist and support themselves all the time, but having two batteries waiting to be used is a rather different thing that couldn't have been done on-the-fly. Hence it was preparation on Naruto's part to arrange them.

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you cant know if he is unable to do it without her. i say its the opposite. reference his fight vs orochimaru. he willingly got mad and went into 4 tails mode.

i dont think i ever said naruto had control over the 9tails in this fight. i totally agree that naruto had no control at that time, however it still is naruto. that 1 character at that 1 point in time is what this debate is about and that 1 character of naruto is capable of all these moves, clones, modes, whatever...

...you are making huge assumptions. as i said eariler in this post, naruto can let go and go into tailed beast mode. just look at his previous fights where he did exactly that.

im saying the control issue is moot. the discussion is about a character and what their power level is at a given time. you guys seem to want to take the kyuubi away from naruto's power so i'm saying that if you do that then you have to take away the powers from all the other ninjas who use things that are not their actual human form
Sure, he willingly got mad during the Four-Tailed incident, but intent doesn't mean a thing. The end result in both instances was Naruto entering a state where the only thing that was still Naruto was the body that was doing all of that. Yes the Kyuubi's power is Naruto's, but unless he can control it and use that power himself I'm leery to qualify it as a part of his strength.

So, I really don't think the control issue is moot, because unless it's Naruto pulling off these moves it's not really him. The best we can really say of his Six-Tailed Mode is that it is a power he can theoretically have, should he gain control over it.

Edit:

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edit: here's an example. take juugo for instance. when he goes into beast mode vs raikage is that no longer juugo because he doesn't have control of himself? is that not juugo's power level since he's out of control?
The difference here is that there isn't a second consciousness dictating Juugo's actions in his stead. Going berserk (as Naruto did when he went Three-Tailed) is different than being hijacked by an entirely separate consciousness.

Last edited by Akashin; 2011-12-17 at 14:44. Reason: Stuff
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Old 2011-12-17, 14:59   Link #411
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It's worth noting that, while Nagato may very well have known of Sage Mode, he clearly did not know of its abilities (and one of his Paths got totaled for that very reason, as I recall).
very true, but there are also plenty of pain's abilities that naruto didn't know about either. nobody bothered to tell him that pain could create a MOON for instance...

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This is different. The clone situation he referred to are two clones kept far out of reach, where they were pretty much free batteries to give Naruto an extra boost. Sure, people use clones to assist and support themselves all the time, but having two batteries waiting to be used is a rather different thing that couldn't have been done on-the-fly. Hence it was preparation on Naruto's part to arrange them.
i'm still not seeing anything wrong or unfair about this. nagato's real body was far away and hidden.

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Sure, he willingly got mad during the Four-Tailed incident, but intent doesn't mean a thing. The end result in both instances was Naruto entering a state where the only thing that was still Naruto was the body that was doing all of that. Yes the Kyuubi's power is Naruto's, but unless he can control it and use that power himself I'm leery to qualify it as a part of his strength.
well its similar to the hulk as well. is that not the hulk's power when he gets mad? he is out of control sure, but its still his power.

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So, I really don't think the control issue is moot, because unless it's Naruto pulling off these moves it's not really him. The best we can really say of his Six-Tailed Mode is that it is a power he can theoretically have, should he gain control over it.
well i guess we have to agree to disagree on this point. i say its his power level, you dont. it doesn't discount the fact that the first 5 pains were beaten by SM naruto (no questions here hopefully). then deva pain was killed by regular naruto with a rasengan. so even if we go with your opinion on the 9tails not being naruto's power, then it still only served as a chakra drainer on pain. it was a conscious naruto who beat the last path.

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The difference here is that there isn't a second consciousness dictating Juugo's actions in his stead. Going berserk (as Naruto did when he went Three-Tailed) is different than being hijacked by an entirely separate consciousness.
its true that juugo doesn't have a second consciousness, but if you think that it matters for it to only be one consciousness that dictates these power rankings, then you should discount killerbee regardless of who is in control.
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:19   Link #412
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
very true, but there are also plenty of pain's abilities that naruto didn't know about either. nobody bothered to tell him that pain could create a MOON for instance...
True. Naruto did know enough to not get completely destroyed, but you're right on that.

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i'm still not seeing anything wrong or unfair about this. nagato's real body was far away and hidden.
I didn't call it wrong or unfair. On the contrary, it was smart of Naruto to prepare like that, given the failure of syncing with Pa and Ma like Jiraiya did. It is, however, pre-battle planning that helped influence the fight's outcome. That's all I was saying.

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well i guess we have to agree to disagree on this point. i say its his power level, you dont. it doesn't discount the fact that the first 5 pains were beaten by SM naruto (no questions here hopefully). then deva pain was killed by regular naruto with a rasengan. so even if we go with your opinion on the 9tails not being naruto's power, then it still only served as a chakra drainer on pain. it was a conscious naruto who beat the last path.
Agree to disagree sounds good here. At the end of the day you're right that it is Naruto's power (in the sense that it is power he theoretically can use), but I still think whether or not he has control over it is important.

And as far as I know, it was never up for debate that Naruto won the battle against Pain. It would be stupid to claim he didn't. But then, Sasuke won the battle against Itachi too, and that doesn't by any stretch make Sasuke the stronger (though admittedly, the conditions of their battle were different). I was under the impression that the argument was that Naruto winning does not immediately make him the stronger of the two.

Personally, I like what somebody else said on the subject: If you were to put Naruto and the Six Paths in an isolated area and pit them against one another, with no pre-planning and zero knowledge of eachother's abilities, Pain would win with ease.

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its true that juugo doesn't have a second consciousness, but if you think that it matters for it to only be one consciousness that dictates these power rankings, then you should discount killerbee regardless of who is in control.
I'm not saying there can only be one consciousness, I'm saying that actions performed by one consciousness shouldn't be used to judge the power of the other. Killer Bee is different in the sense that his consciousness retains complete control over any transformation. In the case of Juugo, as I said, all that changes is that he goes berserk. It's still him in that case.
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:36   Link #413
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
its true that juugo doesn't have a second consciousness, but if you think that it matters for it to only be one consciousness that dictates these power rankings, then you should discount killerbee regardless of who is in control.
I don't think so, since it is Bee, who decides to use that power and who learned how to tame the eighttails in the first place. Naruto can't say the same about himself. He just unwillingly enters a state he needs help from others getting out of, if he doesn't want to lose his consciousness forever. Whether or not you can count Kyuubi's power in that fight as Naruto's own or not is irrelevant though. It is as simple as that: Without Minato's seal, the ninetails would walk the earth again and Naruto would be pretty much dead. I don't see anyone being able to reseal Kyuubi's eighttailed mode, not even Yamato. And that's why without help, Naruto wouldn't have won that battle. Well, it's one reason anyway . . . another one being that without the slug's information about Pain, Naruto would have probably been captured within seconds. But apparently you believe otherwise, so I'm just going to leave it at that. Looks like there are many different ways you can interpret this manga.
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:43   Link #414
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I didn't call it wrong or unfair. On the contrary, it was smart of Naruto to prepare like that, given the failure of syncing with Pa and Ma like Jiraiya did. It is, however, pre-battle planning that helped influence the fight's outcome. That's all I was saying.
right on. i consider this part of the person/character though. like how shikamaru prepares for battle. its strategy and doesn't detract from someone's power level. though i think we're on the same page anyway


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And as far as I know, it was never up for debate that Naruto won the battle against Pain. It would be stupid to claim he didn't. But then, Sasuke won the battle against Itachi too, and that doesn't by any stretch make Sasuke the stronger (though admittedly, the conditions of their battle were different). I was under the impression that the argument was that Naruto winning does not immediately make him the stronger of the two.
ok well it's nice to hear someone say naruto won. lol! but yea, I would argue that sm naruto is stronger at this time

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Personally, I like what somebody else said on the subject: If you were to put Naruto and the Six Paths in an isolated area and pit them against one another, with no pre-planning and zero knowledge of eachother's abilities, Pain would win with ease.
yea, I would be on the fence with this one. i see what you're saying and planning certainly helped naruto a lot, enough to have a major character die for the cause, but what would happen when the fox cloak came out? i wouldn't be so quick to say naruto would lose to anyone. its naruto we're talking about here afterall



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I'm not saying there can only be one consciousness, I'm saying that actions performed by one consciousness shouldn't be used to judge the power of the other. Killer Bee is different in the sense that his consciousness retains complete control over any transformation. In the case of Juugo, as I said, all that changes is that he goes berserk. It's still him in that case.
i don't see the difference if "actions performed by one consciousness shouldn't be used to judge the power of the other" as you say. 8tails is a different consciousness. samehada as well, etc... so theoretically you shouldnt count them towards those characters' power levels. I would though
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:58   Link #415
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right on. i consider this part of the person/character though. like how shikamaru prepares for battle. its strategy and doesn't detract from someone's power level. though i think we're on the same page anyway
Pretty much. And in the same way that Shikamaru wouldn't perform as well without his battle planning, Naruto wouldn't have done as well without preparing those clones to recharge his Sage Chakra.

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yea, I would be on the fence with this one. i see what you're saying and planning certainly helped naruto a lot, enough to have a major character die for the cause, but what would happen when the fox cloak came out? i wouldn't be so quick to say naruto would lose to anyone. its naruto we're talking about here afterall
Who knows? We know for a fact that with no pre-planning Naruto is screwed, since his Sage Mode simply doesn't last long enough to endure the entire fight, much less endure the time it would take to figure out Pain's abilities (which took Jiraiya his entire battle, to say nothing of Naruto). Bringing in the cloak blurs that a little since Six-Tailed is pretty much stronger than probably any Path except Deva, but that would depend upon Naruto being angry enough to enter that state and lasting long enough to get there in the first place.

Personally, I don't think the difference in power between Naruto and the Six Paths is nearly as drastic as some have said (and Sage Mode does indeed make Naruto a relatively fair match for Pain, for as long as it lasts), but I would put Pain above Naruto in overall power.

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i don't see the difference if "actions performed by one consciousness shouldn't be used to judge the power of the other" as you say. 8tails is a different consciousness. samehada as well, etc... so theoretically you shouldnt count them towards those characters' power levels. I would though
Both the Eight-Tails and Samehada are things controlled by Killer Bee himself though. As is Juugo's power. The Kyuubi's power, beyond the Three-Tailed stage, is not controlled by Naruto, but the Kyuubi itself. To come back to the Six-Tailed example, I feel that that power should only be qualified is Naruto's in a mystical world where he can control it.

This is getting redundant though, given that we've already agreed to disagree on the issue of control being a deal breaker, so I'll drop it.
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Old 2011-12-17, 16:26   Link #416
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Whether or not you can count Kyuubi's power in that fight as Naruto's own or not is irrelevant though. It is as simple as that: Without Minato's seal, the ninetails would walk the earth again and Naruto would be pretty much dead. I don't see anyone being able to reseal Kyuubi's eighttailed mode, not even Yamato. And that's why without help, Naruto wouldn't have won that battle.
good point and i totally get where you're coming from, but its a very grey road to go down to say that naruto is less powerful than pain because minato sealed the kyuubi back in place. those 2 ideas aren't directly related. i agree that minato helped during the fight, but i dont think that makes naruto weaker than pain. for instance, kakuzu helped hidan fight asuma, does that mean hidan was weaker than asuma? i think not. a lot of 'helping' went on in that fight and its convoluted, but if you just think about asuma fighting hidan, hidan would destroy him and he did. the helping had nothing to do with it

one of the main point's of the fight, in my opinion, was to show that naruto and pain were pretty much equal in power/mental fortitude at that specific time, but naruto was just a tiny bit better and like always had that final push left when his opponent was spent. its very similar to when naruto fought with gaara in the first series.

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Well, it's one reason anyway . . . another one being that without the slug's information about Pain, Naruto would have probably been captured within seconds.
this i totally disagree with. i dont think knowledge has anything to do with naruto's (or anyone's) power for good or bad. everyone knows about itachi's sharingan but that doesn't really matter when thinking about itachi's and his opponents' power

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Looks like there are many different ways you can interpret this manga.
yea it's pretty sweet. a modern day illiad


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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Pretty much. And in the same way that Shikamaru wouldn't perform as well without his battle planning, Naruto wouldn't have done as well without preparing those clones to recharge his Sage Chakra.
and pain wouldn't perform as well if he never trained... just saying that this doesn't really have a point

mostly everyone prepares for battle in some way. there are intel divisions in every village for this exact purpose.

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Personally, I don't think the difference in power between Naruto and the Six Paths is nearly as drastic as some have said (and Sage Mode does indeed make Naruto a relatively fair match for Pain, for as long as it lasts), but I would put Pain above Naruto in overall power.
fair enough. he certainly wasn't out of pain's league as others have said.
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Old 2011-12-17, 16:33   Link #417
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Both the Eight-Tails and Samehada are things controlled by Killer Bee himself though. As is Juugo's power. The Kyuubi's power, beyond the Three-Tailed stage, is not controlled by Naruto, but the Kyuubi itself. To come back to the Six-Tailed example, I feel that that power should only be qualified is Naruto's in a mystical world where he can control it.

This is getting redundant though, given that we've already agreed to disagree on the issue of control being a deal breaker, so I'll drop it.
yea its redundant alright. so basically according to you and others' theories:

1) juugo is out of control but its one consciousness so that's ok
2) bee and 8 tails are 2 consciousnesses but he's in control so it's ok
3) naruto and 9 tails are 2 consciousnesses and out of control so its not ok


lolz. i think that sums it up
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Old 2011-12-17, 16:53   Link #418
Akashin
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ontario
Age: 22
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and pain wouldn't perform as well if he never trained... just saying that this doesn't really have a point

mostly everyone prepares for battle in some way. there are intel divisions in every village for this exact purpose.
Not really the same thing though, since training and preparing are two entirely different things. Shikamaru can still fight whether or not he plans beforehand, but he fights better when he does do so. In the same vein Naruto would have still performed just as well in the early stages of the fight, but been left high and dry once he ran out of Sage Chakra, since without the clones he has no way of replenishing mid-battle (unless he somehow makes a clone without Pain noticing, gets it to a safe place, and lasts long enough for it to gather enough Sage Chakra to bring to him; I wouldn't count on that working out though).

I'm not calling any of this a bad thing, as I said, just pointing out that it does make a difference and that Naruto wouldn't have done as well without it. The original argument was that Naruto entering the battle prepared helped him win in the end where his raw power would have failed him, and that's true.
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Old 2011-12-17, 19:39   Link #419
Divinegundam
Join Date: May 2005
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA NY
I will use spaces to illustrate the difference between individuals. The more space denotes the gap in overall strength. This is how it should be ranked IMO.

1. Sage 6 paths( Made the Moon enough said)




*****EDO Rinnegan Mokuton Immortal Madara (no "will of fire" so not at Sage level)*****




2.Tobi rinnegan Mokuton (Too many Buffs too many extra eye to use izanagi)

3.Sarutobi prime (He took on 2 Hokages and orochimaru at age 80+....damn!!)
4.Minato

5. Hashirama
6. Ems madara

7. Ms Izuna
8. Nagato
9. 3rd raikage (you Can't hurt his body)
10.itachi ( the Items his Susanoo have give big buff)
11.tobi


12.2nd tsuchikage
13.2nd mizukage
14.3rd tsuchikage
15.4th raikage
16. 2nd Hokage


17.EMS Susake
18.killer bee
19.nine tails cloak naruto


20.5th mizukage
21. kisame (with Samehada)
22.hanzo
23. orochimaru
23. jiraiya
24.Tsunade
25.Sarutobi old


26.sage naruto
27.ms sasuke



28.danzo
29.ms kakashi
30.gai 8 gates
31.kabuto oro DNA
32.sasori
33.3rd kazekage
34.4th mizukage
35.gaara (w/o Shukaku)





****NON Kage Level****
36.kakashi
37.hebi sasuke
38.deidara
39.kakuzu
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Old 2011-12-17, 22:15   Link #420
White Silver King
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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good point and i totally get where you're coming from, but its a very grey road to go down to say that naruto is less powerful than pain because minato sealed the kyuubi back in place. those 2 ideas aren't directly related. i agree that minato helped during the fight, but i dont think that makes naruto weaker than pain. for instance, kakuzu helped hidan fight asuma, does that mean hidan was weaker than asuma? i think not. a lot of 'helping' went on in that fight and its convoluted, but if you just think about asuma fighting hidan, hidan would destroy him and he did. the helping had nothing to do with it

one of the main point's of the fight, in my opinion, was to show that naruto and pain were pretty much equal in power/mental fortitude at that specific time, but naruto was just a tiny bit better and like always had that final push left when his opponent was spent. its very similar to when naruto fought with gaara in the first series.
Have you not read anyone's responses? It is, in fact, not a grey road. At all. There have literally been pages of evidence by several posters that give nearly incontrovertible evidence that without his pre-positioned clones, his previous knowledge of Pain's techniques, his constant healing by Tsunade, Hinata's intervention in Pain's near slaughter of Naruto, and Minato's sealing of the Kyubi Naruto would have lost that fight. At best, he was a little weaker. No one is denying that Naruto is strong, he is very strong, especially with his new cloak. And the Hidan/Kakuzu example was completely different and irrelevant example (something I've noticed you put out quite a lot). They don't work together in desperation, they are permanent team members who work towards a common goal - the same cannot be said for Naruto and his helpers in the Pain fight.

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this i totally disagree with. i dont think knowledge has anything to do with naruto's (or anyone's) power for good or bad. everyone knows about itachi's sharingan but that doesn't really matter when thinking about itachi's and his opponents' power
And the manga disagrees with you. It was said (possible twice IIRC) that had Jiraiya known as much of Pain's abilities that Naruto did, he wouldn't have lost. Even with that example aside, info on your enemy is obviously EXTREMELY important and can most certainly tip the scales in one side's favor.

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and pain wouldn't perform as well if he never trained... just saying that this doesn't really have a point
Preparing for battle and training are two entirely separate things. Do you consider putting a landmine with a remote trigger under where your opponent is going to be standing before the battle starts "training"? No, it's preparing for the battle before-hand, something that gives a testament to intelligence but not to raw power and strength.

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i don't see the difference if "actions performed by one consciousness shouldn't be used to judge the power of the other" as you say. 8tails is a different consciousness. samehada as well, etc... so theoretically you shouldnt count them towards those characters' power levels.
I'm trying to be mean here, but if you can see the difference I have to chock it up to the fact that you physically cannot see weakness in Naruto. The difference is blatant and has been explained to you multiple times.

What we (well, at least I) are trying to establish here is if you put SM Naruto and Pain in a giant box with both their memories of each other's abilities wiped, absolutely no outside interference, and no pre-planning - Pain would win. I honestly don't see how, plot purposes aside, you can argue that to be different.


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25.Sarutobi old
How do you put him below Oro, Hashi, and Tobirama when you yourself said he beat all of them (2 of whom were Edo'ed) in old age... at the same time!
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