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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 21 23.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 27.78%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 21.11%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 13.33%
6 out of 10 : Average 11 12.22%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-17, 17:42   Link #21
Moekou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
And while Hetori is impressive it's no where near Gates power IMO. One has a giant army at his side yet the other has unlimited weapons that can fire like a machine gun. He should be more concerned with Berserker who can actually counter the Gate.
Oho, Gate of Babylon is far from unlimited. He's not firing generic blades; he's firing legendary relics-and there's a limited number he has. It's quality over quantity.
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Old 2011-12-17, 17:42   Link #22
mAc Chaos
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
When Kirei was explaining the rules for the HGW he clearly stated that a master once chosen will always be on the list of top candidates. You want to kill off the masters because they can make new pacts with orphaned servants. However a master can only be chosen again once there is an empty spot for a servant.

This makes me sort of confused a the end of the episode. So why did Kirei spawn a new sign? Gilgamesh said its because the holy grail just likes him that much....really? Is that the real reason? That's it?

I also wonder what the Assassins actually felt like in the novel. Did they realize they were just pathetic pawns since the very beginning? Do they feel betrayed and used?
It means the Grail is saying he has some purpose or role yet to fulfill in this war that doesn't encompass what he had already done -- helping Tokiomi win. Since he had never wanted the Grail to begin with, since he thought the only reason the Grail gave him the Command Seals was because it was basically endorsing the plan to help Tokiomi, the fact that the Grail gave him his seals back after he had done his job is basically saying, "No, you actually DO have a reason to want to win for yourself after all, even if you don't know it," which changes his perspective on things.

Also, I thought people retained their Command Spells after they lose a Servant, since they could make a new contract with another one. So I'm a little confused why he lost his. I thought he should've retained them all along. Or maybe I misunderstood something.
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Old 2011-12-17, 19:52   Link #23
Jaden
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I guess it's just like that. In order to be a master, you must desire the grail. After Kirei lost his assassins, he genuinely felt that he was done with the war and ready to put it behind him. He still had an interest in Kiritsugu, but that doesn't have anything to do with the grail war.

So he lost the seals, but then some demigod jerk came and drank all his wine. And dragged him back to hell.

I wonder if Gilgamesh likes tempting Kirei just to waver his faith? Gilgamesh always liked to challenge the gods after all.
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Old 2011-12-17, 20:21   Link #24
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Kirei finally wake up from being a puppet
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Old 2011-12-17, 21:11   Link #25
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A slower-paced episode, but even if it's talking, it wasn't that bad. The highlight is clearly Kirei and Gilgamesh's conversation. It's interesting to see how Kirei reacts to Gilgamesh's words, and there's so much foreshadowing going on, like with the chess pieces. And I found the BGM at the beginning of that segment kinda odd...

And something's wrong with Illyasviel. Uh oh...

Anyway, 7/10. Can't wait for the next one - the final episode of this cour. =/
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Old 2011-12-17, 22:10   Link #26
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Didn't like this episode. It was just people talking, and unless the characters involved are Rider or Waver (or even the Caster team), talking heads aren't exciting. 5/10 for being so boring.
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Old 2011-12-17, 22:40   Link #27
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;( I'm so disappointed of this episode. There are was a lot of talk....... no action, absolutely nothing except the Kirei's awakening, which could be done in less than 3 minutes. The first season will be over soon and they are in the middle of nowhere.
6/10
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Old 2011-12-17, 22:56   Link #28
Triple_R
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What I find with Fate/Zero is that most of the episodes are excellent when evaluated individually, but the net effect of them thus far is a somewhat stagnant plot.

In other words, as good as much of the dialogue is, not a whole lot of significance in the Holy Grail War itself has happened thus far.


Kayneth was knocked out and replaced by Sola-Ui, meaning that a Lancer team is still around.

The Assassins have all been eliminated, but Kotomine has been chosen by the Grail to continue on.

Between Kayneth and the Assassins, it's kind of like one competing pair out of seven being eliminated, I suppose. That's not terrible, but it's not much either for 12 episodes worth of Grail competition. With this in mind, I'd have no issue with dialogue-heavy episodes like this one if the action-oriented ones had resulted in more significant changes in the competition itself.


Now, that being said, for a dialogue-heavy episode, this was very good. Kiritsugu strategizing was genuinely fun to watch, as it's one of the character's strengths and puts some real focus back on the competition itself, which is good to see.

Saber and Irisviel's scenes weren't particularly exciting, but they did make for a good lighter contrast to the Kiritsugu and Kotomine/Gilgamesh scenes. Saber and Irisviel do have pretty good chemistry between them, and watching them care about and respect each other a lot has a sort of contagious effect for me, where it also makes me care about and respect them more as well. Irisviel's overall condition is certainly one that encourages great sympathy, and so it's good for that to provide added emotional investment here.

The highlight of the episode was definitely the Kotomine/Gilgamesh scene, though. It had that rare combo that often makes for such great drama: subtle but intense. The conversation between them has a slight poetic quality to it that kept it from becoming dull, but it was also comprehensible enough to follow without getting completely lost. Just the right amount of "talking in riddles", in other words.


So, all-told, this was a very good episode. I do find the pacing rather slow, but I suppose one possible positive arising from that might well be a very exciting and intense second half.

8/10 for Episode 12.
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Old 2011-12-17, 22:59   Link #29
Shiryuu
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I like the way Rider phrased it last ep. Holy Grail dialouges. There's no war.

It will be retarded if Kirei does kill Tokiomi. He has command seals and can force Gilgamesh to kill him whether he wants to be Kirei's slave or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moekou View Post
Oho, Gate of Babylon is far from unlimited. He's not firing generic blades; he's firing legendary relics-and there's a limited number he has. It's quality over quantity.
He can reset them. So it's infinite regardless.
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Old 2011-12-17, 23:06   Link #30
rpgman1
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It was an okay episode overall. Thought it was going to be exciting, but more talking. At least Gilgamesh seems to tempt Kotomine into the Grail War anyway.
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Old 2011-12-17, 23:10   Link #31
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by Shiryuu View Post
I like the way Rider phrased it last ep. Holy Grail dialouges. There's no war.

It will be retarded if Kirei does kill Tokiomi. He has command seals and can force Gilgamesh to kill him whether he wants to be Kirei's slave or not.


He can reset them. So it's infinite regardless.
A master can only command his own servant. Gilgamesh isn't Kirei's servant.
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Old 2011-12-17, 23:29   Link #32
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
A master can only command his own servant. Gilgamesh isn't Kirei's servant.
He will be soon from the forshadowing at the end.

I don't blame Gil for wanting to change master, Tosaka is the most boring character in the show , even his daughter out shine him
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Old 2011-12-17, 23:55   Link #33
Thess
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
A master can only command his own servant. Gilgamesh isn't Kirei's servant.
One of the lines of the novel that got cut out (yes, there was even the double of talking) in this episode was:

Spoiler for novel original, not spoilery since this scene was technically already adapted:


Gilgamesh doesn't see Tokiomi as a Master, just his lackey, a very dull one.

But I liked how this chatter was replaced by the visual of Gilgamesh knocking down the chess piece that represented Tokiomi when he removed Assassin from the board. It had a powerful impact.

Another interesting bit: the way Gilgamesh addresses to Kirei isn't as rude as the way he addresses to other people. Casual and informal, but not rude. He likes Kotomine that much.
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Old 2011-12-18, 00:24   Link #34
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Pretty much. Kotomine is the only one Gilgamesh can have a regular conversation with... everyone else he speaks in that sadistic tone of his.

And EK looks like he has been hard at work... a true cold-blooded assassin.
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Old 2011-12-18, 00:35   Link #35
nightwyrm
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Gilgamesh doesn't see Tokiomi as a Master, just his lackey, a very dull one. .
A lackey who dissed him by crashing the drinking party he provided wine for.
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Old 2011-12-18, 00:49   Link #36
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A lackey who dissed him by crashing the drinking party he provided wine for.
That too, he keeps shaming him in front of the other Servants (forcing him to retreat, disgracing his drinking party). He tolerates Tokiomi at best.
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Old 2011-12-18, 00:53   Link #37
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Fantastic episode, though I doubt I would've found it as interesting had I not read the F/SN Visual Novel. Definitely the episode with the most throwbacks and foreshadowing to it so far. But yeah, I think I could watch Kotomine and Gilgamesh talk it out for an entire season and never once be bored. With dialogue this good, who needs action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_sora View Post
Umm, so that means Kirei is obsessed with Kariya now instead of Kiritsugu?
Not quite. Kiritsugu is still very much Kotomine's number one love, but Gilgamesh brought up Kariya in order to make a point, since the latter's fate in the war is the most predictably tragic one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I wonder if Gilgamesh likes tempting Kirei just to waver his faith?
More like just to obtain a much more entertaining Master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiryuu View Post
It will be retarded if Kirei does kill Tokiomi. He has command seals and can force Gilgamesh to kill him whether he wants to be Kirei's slave or not.
...Except Kotomine is an assassin of sorts himself and could simply kill Tokiomi before the latter can react and utilise a Command Seal. It would be as easy as stealthily cutting off his right hand with the first move. It seems rather unlikely that Tokiomi suspects the possibility of betrayal from Kotomine anyway, and Gilgamesh clearly has no intention of protecting him from such an outcome unless forced through the Command Spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iBeast View Post
Pretty much. Kotomine is the only one Gilgamesh can have a regular conversation with... everyone else he speaks in that sadistic tone of his.
But Gil's sadism is part of the reason why he finds Kotomine so interesting. Watching tortured souls go about their thorny path is Gil's preferred form of entertainment, and it doesn't get much more tortured and conflicted than Kotomine. Saber also fits the bill quite well, hence Gil's proclamation of love towards her in the previous episode.
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Old 2011-12-18, 01:01   Link #38
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
That too, he keeps shaming him in front of the other Servants (forcing him to retreat, disgracing his drinking party). He tolerates Tokiomi at best.
Ugh he's horrible.

If Emiya is correct he's spent so far what? 10 episodes hiding in his basement? Granted the intel being provided by the assassins were nice but he's making some bad choices IMO.

Even Emiya has stated that it's better to leave Berserker alone because he is capable of countering Archer's Gate.
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Old 2011-12-18, 01:05   Link #39
DragoZERO
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I wasn't expecting so much talking, again. But it was still a great episode. We know Assassin in gone but Kirei isn't out of the fight, just yet. Gil really is pulling his string, oh man. Tokiomi should have bought Gil a Nintendo or something to keep him occupied, . It was nice to see the Emiya Mansion. Now we know where that magic circle came from too.
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Old 2011-12-18, 01:07   Link #40
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Standalone, this was not a bad ep, in particular the dialogue exchanges between Kotomine and Gilgamesh. It's seems to be highly hinted that Kotomine is going to betray his mentor Tohsaka and even steal Gilgamesh from him considering it was Gilgamesh himself who suggested it, and he was picking up the Archer chess piece whilst doing so.

Other parts of the episode were so-so. I'm honestly at a point where I am "cool story broing" Saber atm. Seriously, she is weak, naive and boring that I hardly care about her considering there's much more interesting servants out there like Rider, Caster and even Gilgamesh. I mean she's one of the main characters, supposed to be the strongest class but is being portrayed as such an underpowered underdog. IIRC I didn't feel the same way I did to Saber when I watched Fate Stay Night many years ago.

Regardless, I am finding it very frustrating that it's the 2nd last episode of the 1st cour of Fate/Zero and someone has STILL not died. I expected Caster + Master and Lancer + Master to be eliminated as a bare minimum before the 2nd cour started in Spring next year, but I donno if I can even assume that at this point. The pacing of F/Z has been too slow and whilst the dialogue exchanges have been largely good, things need to start dying or Fate Zero pacing is little to no better than your average shonen series.

For that I can't give Fate/Zero a higher score than 7/10 given where we are atm.
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